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Ash Bladestorm replacement (Hunter's Sight)


Xarteros
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I made a suggestion like this long before Ash's 'rework', but I feel like it's time to post again.

What: Replace Bladestorm with a toggle-mode ability (call it Hunter's Sight, Heartseeker, whatever you want). Visual effects change, highlighting enemies through walls, and making their hearts glow inside their bodies (or their power cores, for robots). Their heart becomes a weakpoint (for Ash only) with some form of additional damage effect (possibly energy-return on hit, or double crit damage etc)

During this mode, Ash's other abilities will bring his clones to bear.

  • All enemies affected by Ash's abilities are considered 'marked'
  • Enemies struck by Shuriken spawn clones that intermittently teleport nearby and throw additional shuriken. If original targets are slain, clones target any other marked enemies. Clones would have a number of shuriken throws before disappearing.
  • Enemies caught inside Smokebomb are attacked by invisible Ash clones with regular melee attacks (not finishers) for a certain duration. Enemies that move into the cloud during this duration can be hit and marked as normal.
  • Enemies targeted by Teleport generate a small AoE of 'marked' status, and trigger Finisher Clones for X number of attacks (Similar in function to the Augment, but augment makes you deal a finisher). AoE marking would not be limited by LoS.
  • Marked enemies might give some form of energy return when slain.

Visually, to represent the image of a glowing heart inside the enemy, I'd like to reference The Darkness II. Image in the Spoiler tab (not great quality, but few pictures were available.
 

Spoiler

maxresdefault.jpg

Why: I feel like the Bladestorm 'rework' still didn't achieve very good results. Before, it wasn't interactive enough to be interesting, and now it just feels really clunky and never seems to get much effect. I miss seeing people play Ash for a strong damage role in teams, and I can't remember the time I saw an Ash on any public mission actually manage any reasonable scores. This idea would ideally give the player a lot more interaction, but without locking them into any animations, and letting them pace their abilities as much as they like. The vision mode allows players to use it primarily as a weapons aid, but would give players the opportunity of busting out some additional strength from the rest of his kit.

Once in the mode, it becomes a simple matter of pressing 3 to deliver AoE clusters of Finisher clones, pressing 2 to create a deployable zone of frequent attacks, or pressing 1 to create a persistent chain of smaller attacks. Each one has a tactical purpose, and you could put in some kind of energy return (as mentioned above) to allow successful attacks to chain a bit more smoothly. I feel like it will give Ash a much more clear assassin/predator vibe as well.

I'd just like Ash to feel fun again, and I feel like he got worse from his rework. Plastering my mouse all over the screen to mark enemies doesn't feel intuitive, fun or engaging, and it's still limited by all the clutter that blocks LoS.

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The main reason why this(or anything like it) would be implemented is because there are players who like ash. DE could only do tweaks to the abilities because it is better to retain the current players who like him rather than risk losing them for a chance of attracting new people. Imagine if DE completely changed the abilities of your favorite warframe because they thought it more people would like it. 

Ash is still fun and useful for me, his kit actually allows for a variety of play styles. It may still need some adjustments, but no major changes. 

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I like this concept because not only does it add flavor to him (Predator Vision and more clones!), but it adds an actual gameplay element to him by encouraging players to aim their gunfire at a specific spot.  It's possible it is a bit too similar to Banshee, but I like the idea of it.  To remend this, why not take a page from Harrow's book and further reward headshots while his 4 is active (For example: Headshots inflict guaranteed slash procs)?  I also dislike the idea of this being a channel, would much rather see it as a duration-based ability.

 

My only worry for this concept is that it might be more work than DE is willing to do, as well as more change than other Ash players are willing to accept.
 

Edited by Messaiga
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1 hour ago, (PS4)NewcastleDisease said:

to replace bladestorm will kill ash's offence abilities. so no.. i don't want to see bladestorm replace by something else. even if you don't like bladestorm it is an essential ability of ash. 

It sounds like you misinterpreted my idea, or didn't actually read it. I actually think my suggestions would make Ash more offensive. It would just be more open to player input, and have different options. Functionally, with your 4 toggled on, you can replicate Bladestorm by using 3 to teleport from group to group and deploying groups of Finisher clones. However, my idea also allows further function to be added to his 1 and 2 kit, as well as giving him the option of enhanced weapon usage. It gives players a lot more control, without taking away any of the features or roles that Ash has.

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vor 5 Stunden schrieb Xarteros:

It sounds like you misinterpreted my idea, or didn't actually read it. I actually think my suggestions would make Ash more offensive. It would just be more open to player input, and have different options. Functionally, with your 4 toggled on, you can replicate Bladestorm by using 3 to teleport from group to group and deploying groups of Finisher clones. However, my idea also allows further function to be added to his 1 and 2 kit, as well as giving him the option of enhanced weapon usage. It gives players a lot more control, without taking away any of the features or roles that Ash has.

the problem is: instead of just push one button to mark all, and pushing it again to kill them all, you have to push multiple buttons and combos in a row and whatever to make this working. this isn't fun.. it's exhausting. but i play warframe to have fun. not to push buttons over and over to make something i could do before just by typing 2 buttons. 

but with your concept player are forced into using this or loose the complete offence of this frame. just like the new nezha - you're forced to use the ring-shuriken over and over just to get not killed. 

Edited by (PS4)NewcastleDisease
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Alright so I did some thinking and decided to try and revise this concept, as well as include some changes I feel would be good for Ash without stepping on the toes of other frames.  Once again, the only thing I worry about with concepts like this is that it is far more change than is necessary, as well as more change than DE or other players would want.  That said, these changes are what I believe would maximize Ash's power fantasy as a classic smoke and shadows ninja while encouraging an active, engaging, and enjoyable gameplay loop.

If something is a new effect, it will be in bold text.  Effects highlighted in red are affected by Power Strength, effects highlighted in blue are affected by Power Efficiency, effects highlighted in green are affected by Power Duration, and effects highlighted in orange are affected by Power Range.  The rest is QOL changes, bug fixes, or changes in how the ability functions.

1 - Shuriken:

  • Shuriken requires sight of an enemy in order to target them, rather than being able to home in on a target Ash has no sight of.
  • Shuriken is a silent cast (but does not benefit from stealth multipliers).
  • Shuriken stuns enemies hit for 3/4/5/6 seconds.
  • Shuriken will prioritize targets not currently affected by Shuriken's effects, if possible.
  • Seeking Shuriken will no longer fail to apply its armor reduction if Shuriken passes through any entity (allies, enemies, walls, terrain) during its flight.

2 - Smoke Screen:

  • Nothing.  This ability is good.

3 - Teleport:

  • Same as above.

4 - Blade Storm:

  • Completely Reworked
  • Costs 50 Energy + 5 Energy per 1 second.
  • Ash enters a state of intense focus as he searches for targets to assassinate, highlighting enemies within a distance of 60 meters through walls and terrain, gaining the ability to cast abilities without Line of Sight, and empowering his abilities with the assistance of Shadow Clones.  In addition, enemy's heads are highlighted in their own color and headshots against enemies while Blade Storm is active have a 70% Bleed chance.
  • On Shuriken cast: 2 Shadow Clones briefly appear on Shuriken cast, each throwing 2 Shurikens of their own (uses the same targeting logic as Shuriken).
  • On Smoke Screen cast: Enemies caught within Smoke Screen are knocked down by Shadow Clones and each receive damage equal to your melee weapon's damage.  Benefits from critical strikes, status procs, and melee combo counter.
  • On Teleport cast: Teleporting to an enemy will mark all enemies within 10 meters of his target for death, spawning 2 Shadow Clones that teleport between and strike all marked enemies.  Each strike inflicts 750/1,000/1,500/2,000 True Damage with a 100% Bleed chance (functions exactly like current Blade Storm, except in the application of marks).

With these changes, a few very important things are accomplished.  The Shuriken changes increase Ash's potential as a stealth-based Warframe, allowing him to CC enemies and maintain a stealth multiplier like Ivara, while also fixing annoying behavior and bugs (ever try to Shuriken a Grineer door sensor and have it be completely ignored? It's the worst).  Smoke Screen and Teleport are fairly solid abilities that do what they do well, so I did not see any need for changes to them. 

Now, onto the meat and bones of these changes: Blade Storm.  Blade Storm, as it is right now, is an ability that feels very unnatural to use.  You look at things to mark them with it, when you could instead be shooting them.  Therefore, the only time it should be faster is if the enemies are at a level where your weapons are insufficient.  These changes implement Blade Storm's function into the form of an enhanced Teleport cast, which should feel much more natural because Teleport does not interrupt Warframe's or Ash's core gameplay loop. In addition, this version of Blade Storm also encourages play style diversity and rewards Ash players for paying attention to Headshots if they prefer a play style involving Shuriken and shooting enemies, as opposed to Teleport, Blade Storm, and melee attacks.

Edited by Messaiga
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44 minutes ago, (PS4)NewcastleDisease said:

the problem is: instead of just push one button to mark all, and pushing it again to kill them all, you have to push multiple buttons and combos in a row and whatever to make this working. this isn't fun.. it's exhausting. but i play warframe to have fun. not to push buttons over and over to make something i could do before just by typing 2 buttons. 

but with your concept player are forced into using this or loose the complete offence of this frame. just like the new nezha - you're forced to use the ring-shuriken over and over just to get not killed. 

Keep in mind that fun is a subjective idea.  The things that you and OP find fun are probably different.

In defense of Nezha, he hardly takes enough damage to need to spam his Blazing Chakram because his Warding Halo is still incredibly effective at damage mitigation, while the CC from Firewalker and Divine Spears incapacitates most of the enemies that would attack Nezha to begin with.  Unless you're doing endurance missions (beyond level 100 or so) it's a non-issue.

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I played Ash a lot more before the re-work than after. During the Draco era I used him to focus farm. I hate the new bladestorm. The marking system is terrible and not fun at all. I would have been fine with a re-work to get rid of the one button auto-win that bladestorm use to be if it replaced it with a decent ability, but their version just isn't good or fun to me. 

7 hours ago, Messaiga said:

Blade Storm:

  • Completely Reworked
  • Costs 25 Energy + 5 Energy per 1 second.
  • Ash enters a state of intense focus as he searches for targets to assassinate, highlighting enemies within a distance of 60 meters through walls and terrain, gaining the ability to cast abilities without Line of Sight, and empowering his abilities with the assistance of Shadow Clones.  In addition, enemy's heads are highlighted in their own color and headshots against enemies while Blade Storm is active have a 70% Bleed chance.
  • On Shuriken cast: 2 Shadow Clones briefly appear on Shuriken cast, each throwing 2 Shurikens of their own (uses the same targeting logic as Shuriken).
  • On Smoke Screen cast: Enemies caught within Smoke Screen are knocked down by Shadow Clones and each receive damage equal to your melee weapon's damage.  Benefits from critical strikes, status procs, and melee combo counter.
  • On Teleport cast: Teleporting to an enemy will mark all enemies within 10 meters of his target for death, spawning 2 Shadow Clones that teleport between and strike all marked enemies.  Each strike inflicts 750/1,000/1,500/2,000 True Damage with a 100% Bleed chance (functions exactly like current Blade Storm, except in the application of marks).

I really like this version. It makes his 4 more interactive in a way that isn't just wave your mouse around to mark targets before pressing same button again. It also fits into his assassin/ninja theme really well. 

Being able to teleport to the targets you see through walls would also be very amusing. I kind of doubt the removing the line of sight requirement part would be something they'd do since it might let you get into blocked off places in some tilesets or something, but it would be awesome.

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17 hours ago, (PS4)Equinox21697 said:

*cough* Limbo *cough* they nerfed his 4 and 2 hoping more people would like him...

They nerfed those abilities because they new ability that they added was a bit too strong, and they didn't completely change it. A nerf is different from what you are suggesting, which is a complete change to the ability's mechanics.

The two abilities you mentioned did not have a major change in mechanic, your suggestion changes it from a damaging ability to a debuff ability which then requires you to use your other abilities to be used. 

This might sound good to you, but what about those players who don't have flow or streamline? This severely limits what they can do. His other abilities are not useful enough in the earlier stages of the game and requiring them to use a energy draining ability with his other abilities will be really hard for those players. Ease of use completely goes out of the window. Complexity isn't always better. It would be better to use this idea to make a new  frame rather than replace an existing one.

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if you want to play banshee, play banshee. i have no problems with bladestorm as it is now. its so easy to use and in any situation you chose, can be used on the fly as well. cant believe people want to turn an active playstyle into a non active hide in stealth playstyle.

dont like ash or bladestorm? there are 34 other frames.

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1 hour ago, EinheriarJudith said:

if you want to play banshee, play banshee. i have no problems with bladestorm as it is now. its so easy to use and in any situation you chose, can be used on the fly as well. cant believe people want to turn an active playstyle into a non active hide in stealth playstyle.

dont like ash or bladestorm? there are 34 other frames.

I don't think this thread would exist if people didn't like Ash, or Blade Storm. The major thing people dislike here is not Blade Storm itself, but how its targeting works.  The best way I can describe it is functional, but unnatural. 

For the record, I think Ash is in a fine spot power-wise.  I just feel that both of his major play styles (Shuriken builds, and Blade Storm builds) could become more fluid to play with the right changes, in a way that does not alienate Ash players.

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1 hour ago, EinheriarJudith said:

if you want to play banshee, play banshee. i have no problems with bladestorm as it is now. its so easy to use and in any situation you chose, can be used on the fly as well. cant believe people want to turn an active playstyle into a non active hide in stealth playstyle.

dont like ash or bladestorm? there are 34 other frames.

Mate, it's fine if you don't care about how Ash is at the moment. The point of the thread is that I, and many others, dislike the clunky, non-dynamic feel of his current Bladestorm targeting. There's no point even having a forum if you can't come to give feedback on your personal experience of the game; your likes, dislikes and suggestions. You find Bladestorm easy to use, I find it clunky, tedious and un-fun.

Instead of just telling me to go play a different frame, why not discuss what you do or do not like about the proposed changes? If you don't like them, discuss how it would impact your gameplay and your level of enjoyment. Discuss what you would prefer that keeps it enjoyable for you, but also addresses the issue for those who dislike it. Discuss, don't dismiss.

To your other comment, this suggestion doesn't turn "an active playstyle into a non active hide in stealth playstyle". What it does is allow players to continue with fast-paced mass murder, but using even more ability options than before, AS WELL AS allowing a more predator/hunter vibe of combat, using weaponry. Note that aiming at weakpoints doesn't require a player to stealth or move around sneakily. You could well use the 4 in my suggestion to simply sprint through maps, shooting everything in the heart with your favourite run-and-gun weaponry to rank up your weapons faster. You could simply use this 4th power to see hidden enemies better, so you can run a full melee build and chase opponents down faster. My proposal was designed to accommodate more options for playstyles, without taking any options away, and I personally think it does just that.

Edited by Xarteros
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1 hour ago, Messaiga said:

I don't think this thread would exist if people didn't like Ash, or Blade Storm. The major thing people dislike here is not Blade Storm itself, but how its targeting works.  The best way I can describe it is functional, but unnatural. 

For the record, I think Ash is in a fine spot power-wise.  I just feel that both of his major play styles (Shuriken builds, and Blade Storm builds) could become more fluid to play with the right changes, in a way that does not alienate Ash players.

i dont see how it isnt fluid to use. Bladestorm has no animation for casting which means no animation delay. it can be used while parkour, rolling, jumping, or any other conceivable way. people dont like that it takes player input. that isnt an ash problem.

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44 minutes ago, Xarteros said:

Mate, it's fine if you don't care about how Ash is at the moment. The point of the thread is that I, and many others, dislike the clunky, non-dynamic feel of his current Bladestorm targeting. There's no point even having a forum if you can't come to give feedback on your personal experience of the game; your likes, dislikes and suggestions. You find Bladestorm easy to use, I find it clunky, tedious and un-fun.

Instead of just telling me to go play a different frame, why not discuss what you do or do not like about the proposed changes? If you don't like them, discuss how it would impact your gameplay and your level of enjoyment. Discuss what you would prefer that keeps it enjoyable for you, but also addresses the issue for those who dislike it. Discuss, don't dismiss.

To your other comment, this suggestion doesn't turn "an active playstyle into a non active hide in stealth playstyle". What it does is allow players to continue with fast-paced mass murder, but using even more ability options than before, AS WELL AS allowing a more predator/hunter vibe of combat, using weaponry. Note that aiming at weakpoints doesn't require a player to stealth or move around sneakily. You could well use the 4 in my suggestion to simply sprint through maps, shooting everything in the heart with your favourite run-and-gun weaponry to rank up your weapons faster. You could simply use this 4th power to see hidden enemies better, so you can run a full melee build and chase opponents down faster. My proposal was designed to accommodate more options for playstyles, without taking any options away, and I personally think it does just that.

when did i actually say i dont care about ash. i said i have no problems with the way he is playing currently.

you mean instant press death? thats the last thing this game needs more of. most of the complaints come from "DE didnt make bladestorm instant press to kill" the marking system is quite fluid. it doesnt stop how you play in any way. shape or form. can be used while parkouring, has no cast animation so no casting delay.

what i see alot is people saying "well i can kill faster with my gun than it can" and to that i say, if you can kill any enemy with your gun faster, you dont need to use any damage power. it doesnt change the fact that bladestorm falls off much later than any gun.

OP's proposed change is nothing short of banshee;s sonar with clione spam. ash doesn't doesnt need that kind of automated gameplay. its cheaty and boring. again all it does is promote stealth, non active gameplay through the use of spamming instant death.

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39 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

i dont see how it isnt fluid to use. Bladestorm has no animation for casting which means no animation delay. it can be used while parkour, rolling, jumping, or any other conceivable way. people dont like that it takes player input. that isnt an ash problem.

I think the part of Blade Storm's marking that really feels "off" to me is trying to quickly mark targets who are a bit above or below your own location.  Swiping the screen back and forth to cover a group real quick feels fine, but when you add in a noticeable difference in height it becomes a lot harder to mark all of the enemies you'd like to mark.

You do make a great point: DE did a good job at making sure Blade Storm's marking does not interrupt Ash's normal gameplay, and instead just adds to it.  Personally, I enjoy that it takes player input to make use of Blade Storm.  Warframes that kill things with AOE spam are very boring to play, for me at least.

My overall feeling about Blade Storm's targeting is though it works right now, there is room for improvement.  If they do ever change it, it should still require player input of some sort.  Old Blade Storm was mindless and should never be a thing that returns to the game.

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47 minutes ago, Borg1611 said:

Except the suggestions for changing it in this very thread are very interactive suggestions and more complex than the current bladestorm...

I think the part he's referring to that doesn't really take much player input is the idea of having Teleport mark enemies around the target.  It is very much like what old Blade Storm was.  There are good ideas in this thread, but I'm starting to lean towards believing that having Teleport mark targets in an AoE is not one of them.

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11 minutes ago, Messaiga said:

I think the part he's referring to that doesn't really take much player input is the idea of having Teleport mark enemies around the target.  It is very much like what old Blade Storm was.  There are good ideas in this thread, but I'm starting to lean towards believing that having Teleport mark targets in an AoE is not one of them.

Instead of marking targets in a radius you could also just have it where teleporting could simply spawn 2-3 clones and attack other random targets in range at the same time you teleport to limit the number of targets. Or maybe have it spawn just one clone baseline and add an additional clone every 50 or so power strength. 

You wouldn't want to bring it back to wiping out an entire map in one press of the button, but I think having the interaction of having to use the other skills to spawn clones is a better form of interaction than the current system of having to look around marking targets. 

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5 hours ago, Borg1611 said:

Instead of marking targets in a radius you could also just have it where teleporting could simply spawn 2-3 clones and attack other random targets in range at the same time you teleport to limit the number of targets. Or maybe have it spawn just one clone baseline and add an additional clone every 50 or so power strength. 

You wouldn't want to bring it back to wiping out an entire map in one press of the button, but I think having the interaction of having to use the other skills to spawn clones is a better form of interaction than the current system of having to look around marking targets. 

all this does is add instant death in a small AOE to teleport. ash is a very versatile frame. if you cant be bothered to aim to mark, you probably cant be bothered to aim your gun. people forget that his passive is possibly the strongest in the game aside from the 2 cheat death passives. Slash procs ignore armor/shield, stacks and he not only increases its duration he increases the damage it deal.

turning ash in to power spam is a straight up nerf, a quite unnecessary one at that.

Edited by EinheriarJudith
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his 4 needs to be changed, but not entirely. my main issue with the ability is that you basically activate it and then spin your mouse 360 degrees every time. thats just ridiculous, but the most optimal way of putting on the marks on everyone.

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9 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

if you cant be bothered to aim to mark, you probably cant be bothered to aim your gun

And some people can't be bothered to read or form rational statements I guess. 

I hate the mechanic. I didn't say it was too hard. It's a boring poorly designed mechanic they cobbled together because they wanted to nerf his one button win ability. There were and are much better solutions. 

9 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

people forget that his passive is possibly the strongest in the game aside from the 2 cheat death passives. Slash procs ignore armor/shield, stacks and he not only increases its duration he increases the damage it deal.

Has nothing to do with anything that's been said at all. Nobody suggested he wasn't capable of doing a lot of damage as is, it was all about how boring and lackluster many find his current kit. 

9 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

turning ash in to power spam is a straight up nerf, a quite unnecessary one at that.

Nothing being suggested is definitively a nerf or buff, it's about replacing a boring lackluster mechanic with something more interesting. 

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35 minutes ago, Borg1611 said:

And some people can't be bothered to read or form rational statements I guess. 

I hate the mechanic. I didn't say it was too hard. It's a boring poorly designed mechanic they cobbled together because they wanted to nerf his one button win ability. There were and are much better solutions. 

Has nothing to do with anything that's been said at all. Nobody suggested he wasn't capable of doing a lot of damage as is, it was all about how boring and lackluster many find his current kit. 

Nothing being suggested is definitively a nerf or buff, it's about replacing a boring lackluster mechanic with something more interesting. 

Shuriken

Ash throws 1 / 1 / 2 / 2 shuriken which seek-out enemies, each dealing 100 / 250 / 350 / 500 Slash b Slash damage with a 100% status chance.

  • Damage is affected by Ability Strength.
  • The Bleed DoT inflicts 43.75% of the initial damage per tick for a total of 10 ticks over 9 seconds, due to Ash's passive. The Bleed damage bypasses armor and shields.
  • Should Shuriken hit an enemy's head, the Bleed DoT will inflict 87.5% of the initial damage per tick for the same duration.

Bladestorm

When at least 1 enemy is marked, reactivating the ability will spawn 2 Shadow Clones that teleport between and strike all marked enemies. Each strike consumes one mark and performs a Front or Back Finisher which inflicts 750 / 1000 / 1500 / 2000 LotusBlack True damage with a 100% Slash b Bleed chance.

2 of his 4 abilities that are directly buffed by his passive. to not mention his passive would be folly.

just because your experience with the mechanic is bad doesnt mean mine or anyone elses is. it is your opinion and is not a fact.

Edit: adding instant press death is not intresting at all. you dont like the mechanic but i do and DE is not likely to change it because alot of people like it.

Edited by EinheriarJudith
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