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Castanas and Multishot: Please undo the spread


Synpai
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I know it's been a while, but I'm still a bit confused as to the idea behind this change. The castanas went from seldom used to avoided after this change (At least for me). Felt like they could've increased the explosion radius with some fall off instead of having them fan in separate directions if the intent was to make them more effective against groups.

I don't really like the idea of building them without multishot. The whole thing just feels a bit awkward meanwhile the kulstar and angstrum eat a horde with their near hit scan bombardments and clusters requiring 0 set up.

 

I think reverting this change should be considered, these weapons still hold a special place for me, but they're so hard to justify compared to other explosives.

 

Anyone deadset on keeping the Castanas as they are, due to some hidden use that I'm unaware of? 

Edited by Synpai
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16 minutes ago, Errodin said:

I feel they took the wrong approach in the Castanas nerf ... outside of Trinitys Abating Link they had no use... and now have no use. I'll upvote because i hate changes that make content useless.

And I feel like even then, it didn't really affect those players since they had to aim at their feet anyway.

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1 minute ago, Synpai said:

And I feel like even then, it didn't really affect those players since they had to aim at their feet anyway.

I feel it was an issue with how cheesed it made every game mode. Look at Limbo ... still controversy. In Trinity's case her range was the killing factor ... in a defense mission she could nuke the whole map ... and it wasn't the fact that it was high damage.

It had it's own risks as well ... you could nuke yourself if not careful. It required a fairly modded set-up but also fairly basic ... and it gave a support frame a different perspective being able to switch to a viable offense.

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6 minutes ago, Errodin said:

I feel it was an issue with how cheesed it made every game mode. Look at Limbo ... still controversy. In Trinity's case her range was the killing factor ... in a defense mission she could nuke the whole map ... and it wasn't the fact that it was high damage.

It had it's own risks as well ... you could nuke yourself if not careful. It required a fairly modded set-up but also fairly basic ... and it gave a support frame a different perspective being able to switch to a viable offense.

I do wish they kept it in partially due to the variety. Understandably it's a tough thing to balance between people who macro it standing in one place and people who use it through active gameplay. Sadly I guess the best choice was to eradicate it., since their afk detection is flimsy?

But then I look at greedy mag and see another instance where the only thing they had to do was not allow it to pull everything in a radius; changing it to no longer affect teammates deleted a very useful role for mag and made her a little awkward to play around.

Then the T3 amp reset which had to use two energy pools on top of timing. blegh

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 2018-10-11 at 10:47 AM, Wyrmius_Prime said:

Talons and Castanas both are completely unusable at their current state.

 

On 2018-10-12 at 10:58 AM, Azamagon said:

Upvoted!

I'd also vote for 0 selfdamage with the Castanas (not sure about Talons).

Praise be the sun! I really really enjoyed goofing with the castanas, but it is impossible to justify them in any form. I guess the self damage is to prevent people from just detonating them close range, but boy shooting an opticor at my feet is sure exciting and safe lol.

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Agreed.

I'd used (Sancti) Castanas a lot in the past, and a big reason for that was their Synergy with Nyx' Absorb. You'd get a mini-nuke which was useful mostly against star chart level enemies.

Of course this still works with the change, but with the spread they're too unreliable to use on their own; makes them dangerous. And it's not like I'd want to bring them just for trying to Absorb bomb everything.

So now when I decide to equip them it's mostly together with the Assimilate mod, simply for protection. Using that there's no real synergy anymore (no self damage to charge the bubble).

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5 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

Agreed.

I'd used (Sancti) Castanas a lot in the past, and a big reason for that was their Synergy with Nyx' Absorb. You'd get a mini-nuke which was useful mostly against star chart level enemies.

Of course this still works with the change, but with the spread they're too unreliable to use on their own; makes them dangerous. And it's not like I'd want to bring them just for trying to Absorb bomb everything.

So now when I decide to equip them it's mostly together with the Assimilate mod, simply for protection. Using that there's no real synergy anymore (no self damage to charge the bubble).

Fingers crossed we see a change. They'd be a really nice change of play

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Spread on multishot is based on a weapon's accuracy stat. Accuracy is weird, because any single shot will hit where you are aiming. The stat is better thought of as a lower cap on it, since the more shots you fire in quick succession, the more they will miss the mark. So a soma firing 1 bullet will hit your aiming reticule every time, but rapid firing and it will spray. In the same sense, multishot projectiles act like additional shots fired, only from the same trigger pull. Your original shot will still have 100% accuracy, but all projectiles produced by multishot will spread. This is observable on almost any weapon with travel time. 

Ways to reduce the spread are zooming and getting closer to your target.

i actually use this mechanic to my advantage. You can make plenty of weapons into shotgun like weapons with multishot and lower accuracy- allowing control over whether you are killing larger crowds or single targets.

Anyway, that's why they're behaving that way with the spread. They are a unique weapon class that I kind of miss and haven't seen used or used in awhile. I'll bet they'd make good crowd killers with a riven though. 

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On 2018-10-24 at 11:42 AM, voltocitygel said:

Spread on multishot is based on a weapon's accuracy stat. Accuracy is weird, because any single shot will hit where you are aiming. The stat is better thought of as a lower cap on it, since the more shots you fire in quick succession, the more they will miss the mark. So a soma firing 1 bullet will hit your aiming reticule every time, but rapid firing and it will spray. In the same sense, multishot projectiles act like additional shots fired, only from the same trigger pull. Your original shot will still have 100% accuracy, but all projectiles produced by multishot will spread. This is observable on almost any weapon with travel time. 

Ways to reduce the spread are zooming and getting closer to your target.

i actually use this mechanic to my advantage. You can make plenty of weapons into shotgun like weapons with multishot and lower accuracy- allowing control over whether you are killing larger crowds or single targets.

Anyway, that's why they're behaving that way with the spread. They are a unique weapon class that I kind of miss and haven't seen used or used in awhile. I'll bet they'd make good crowd killers with a riven though. 

Actually Castanas and Talons are a unique exception, hence the post. They each have an accuracy of 100, but multishot spreads horizontally, regardless of accuracy for these weapons.

THIS is the issue.

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As someone who actually enjoys zoom and boom playstyles, just bullet jumping through a croud, placing explosives and detonating them once I'm clear of the blast radius, I thoroughly enjoy the wide pattern. HOWEVER, I believe that being able to choose throwing patterns on the fly would benefit more. As such it could be like the Cernos Prime, except throwing patterns could be vertical (useful when playing as archwing), Horizontal for area control and a tight-ish cone to be effective at long range.

 

Also, while we're at it... I found out with a Kunai riven that there's no spread at all with its multishot. I'm talking about knifeception here. Four kunai's occupying the same space!

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On 2018-10-29 at 7:33 PM, Sunai_Moonswing said:

As someone who actually enjoys zoom and boom playstyles, just bullet jumping through a croud, placing explosives and detonating them once I'm clear of the blast radius, I thoroughly enjoy the wide pattern. HOWEVER, I believe that being able to choose throwing patterns on the fly would benefit more. As such it could be like the Cernos Prime, except throwing patterns could be vertical (useful when playing as archwing), Horizontal for area control and a tight-ish cone to be effective at long range.

 

Also, while we're at it... I found out with a Kunai riven that there's no spread at all with its multishot. I'm talking about knifeception here. Four kunai's occupying the same space!

I think the fusilai are a unique exception, they're secondary fire allow them to fire an arc of kunai.

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My issue with both the Talons and Castanas is the inability to throw out more than a set number of charges (i.e only 5 active at a time). This wouldn't be a problem if multishot wasn't taken into account, but it is and it's frustrating. The spread was to increase the cc abilities of said weapons but I never really saw them fit that roll to begin with. I would much prefer if the multishot did not affect active charges and I could do without the spread, but understand why it exists. I'd like if they brought back the Hikou's altfire (pvp had it for a time) that enabled you to throw 3 at a time. Throwing weapons seem to need another look at the very least. I don't use multishot on those weapons because of the restriction.

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42 minutes ago, (PS4)Multi-Melta said:

My issue with both the Talons and Castanas is the inability to throw out more than a set number of charges (i.e only 5 active at a time). This wouldn't be a problem if multishot wasn't taken into account, but it is and it's frustrating. The spread was to increase the cc abilities of said weapons but I never really saw them fit that roll to begin with. I would much prefer if the multishot did not affect active charges and I could do without the spread, but understand why it exists. I'd like if they brought back the Hikou's altfire (pvp had it for a time) that enabled you to throw 3 at a time. Throwing weapons seem to need another look at the very least. I don't use multishot on those weapons because of the restriction.

I too have removed multishot from them, but it kind of defeats one of the big bonuses to sidearms. Yeah still don't understand why they'd increase the spread when increasing the blast range would have done the same

Yeah the multishot does make it a little weird to keep track of when you hit the cap unless you just keep hitting the fire button. I just don't quite understand it considering the opticor's (or any other weapon for that matter) multishot doesn't go flying into the sky and it does miles more damage per bullet with no range difficulties. You'd think it'd be okay for the Castanas and Talons to be fine dealing nonsensical damage considering the setup required.

There was a unique pvp event that had Hikou or Kunai with an alt fire, I don't remember it outside of that.

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1 hour ago, Synpai said:

There was a unique pvp event that had Hikou or Kunai with an alt fire, I don't remember it outside of that.

It was the quicksteel event, wich had a default setup of skana and kunai, the kunai had an alt fire that launched a spread of 5 in an horizontal fan.

Due to popular demand the fusilai which came with gara's introduction inherited the same mechanic, altough players calamored to have it on all kunai/shuriken.

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I kinda like the increased spread combined with Fulmination, as it allows a pretty decent amount of overlap between the AOEs at ranges where the weapon is most useful i.e. short to mid range. I could see narrowing the spread by 30% or so because it can be difficult to use in hallways and doorways.

The thing I like least about it is how the spread changes depending on what multishot roll you get. With Barrel Diffusion and Lethal Torrent (+180% multishot), about one in five throws won't include the leftmost projectile.

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15 minutes ago, ArbitUHM said:

I kinda like the increased spread combined with Fulmination, as it allows a pretty decent amount of overlap between the AOEs at ranges where the weapon is most useful i.e. short to mid range. I could see narrowing the spread by 30% or so because it can be difficult to use in hallways and doorways.

The thing I like least about it is how the spread changes depending on what multishot roll you get. With Barrel Diffusion and Lethal Torrent (+180% multishot), about one in five throws won't include the leftmost projectile.

Looks at Arca Plasmor, looks back at Castanas...yeah similar range effectiveness, but one gets the job done in a much more effective way with more damage and no threat of self destruction o-o

Other explosive secondary weapons technically have a further effective range since they don't arc as well.

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7 minutes ago, Synpai said:

Looks at Arca Plasmor, looks back at Castanas...yeah similar range effectiveness, but one gets the job done in a much more effective way with more damage and no threat of self destruction o-o

Other explosive secondary weapons technically have a further effective range since they don't arc as well.

That's more an issue of the Plasmor being stupidly good and self damage on explosives being just plain stupid, IMO 😉 

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On 2018-10-11 at 9:31 AM, Errodin said:

I'll upvote because i hate changes that make content useless.

It doesn't help that this community just screams "NERF" anytime anything is perceived as OP, instead of looking for things to buff they just want everything doing 1 damage.

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On 2018-10-11 at 6:49 AM, Synpai said:

And I feel like even then, it didn't really affect those players since they had to aim at their feet anyway.

I never aimed them at my feet, hurts mobilty too much to have to always look down.

I used to press fire and alt simultaneously, so they'd explode in my hand....

A Trinity bullet jumping and aim gliding across the room covered in explosions and radiating death beams.

way more fun to use that way, and covered more ground than the hop-in-place guys.

RIP link

 

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On 2018-11-01 at 3:41 PM, (PS4)haphazardlynamed said:

I never aimed them at my feet, hurts mobilty too much to have to always look down.

I used to press fire and alt simultaneously, so they'd explode in my hand....

A Trinity bullet jumping and aim gliding across the room covered in explosions and radiating death beams.

way more fun to use that way, and covered more ground than the hop-in-place guys.

RIP link

 

Wasn't meant to be taken literally. But to throw without caution to the wind/self damage

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 2018-11-05 at 1:25 PM, Omega said:

I would appreciate the removal of the maximum number of "bombs" set on the field.  I'd like to see like 20 of them able to be detonated at the same time

Nuclear launch detected. Not really sure the reason behind the limit either if you bother throwing that many of them, guess to stop people being productive during invulnerability phases lol

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