Warframe needs Endgame

[-.SP.-G43riel]

1 minute ago, ljmadruga said:

The problem with having an endgame in warframe is that it gets removed 100% of the time after a period. Dark sectors? Not in the game anymore. Long endless runs for a reward? A shadow of its former self with the advent of Void 2.0. Trials/Raids? Fun while it lasted.

Everything that requires cooperation or even a semblance of strategy in this game gets shafted, dumped, and discarded. There will never be a true endgame in warframe, and if it does come, it will be gone within a year or two.

the sad thing here is that DarK Sector conflicts were removed due bugs and unbalance, Frost Globe + Limbo Cata + Auto Aimbot Mesa, and several other really interesting combinations
the same happened with Raid, they were in a period of releasing a lot of new weapons and warframes, which each time made new glitchs/bugs in those 2 former game mods

it was promised that they would return someday, as you can still forge spectre armies for DS conflicts in your lab
but probably still very far for any of those 2 modes to return
 

[W3zeer]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb Graves21:

We really need a new solar system that will have enemies up to lvl 100 or beyond just for the regular mission so there is a reason to get all those godly rivens and invest 8 formas into a gun. We need some kinds of raids where your frame's abilities matter from a teamplay perspective,we need missions that are unbeatable with unorganized play,where you need to have people supporting,ccing,tanking and dpsing together. 

We need a new zone that will have its own alerts but at a super high level with better rewards,it's not really satisfying doing a lvl 25 alert just to get a Nitian extract while you can one shot everybody and can't die,there is probably a thousand ways DE can add more content for players that are well above even a level 3 sortie (which i'm not) that isn't just adding more planets but heck,i wouldnt mind having 15 more planets to explore just for the heck of it,its basically 100 hours more at least.

Give it a bit more time and you realize that level in warframe wont add difficulty. Endgame here has always been about shutting the enemy down completly and that is not likley to change. There is a point when survival is only possible if no bullets fly at you because enemies have perfect aim and will oneshot you to go on you need to use cc or invisibility/invincibility of which we have plenty and utilize attacks with unlimited scaling then you have zero problems to go as high as you want and it doesn't even feel like an achievement because you know you're cheesing the game. Real difficulty would require a total rework of the AI because right now they're absolutly useless and make up for that with ridicoulus scaling which you have to cheese after a certain point. And I don't see new AI happening anytime soon so pls, if you're looking for a real challenge be real, warframe will never offer that. Eidolons were introduced as this big challenge for veterany and they too are failing miserably in doing that from the very start of their career. And I fear many players don't even want that challenge, read any balance related thread in here. A large portion of the playerbase is allergic of everything that threatens their ability to skip gameplay and missions altogether to run the grind as efficient as it can be (not realizing that exactly this forces the devs to make the grind wall higher and higher to ensure a minimum level of invested time per goal). I don't want to shoot your ideas down, it's just, I've been around here for a while now and have always tried to play the support rules so actual challenging missions would be a blessing for me as it finally would give my Trinity anything to do. But if you truly wait for that to happen in warframe you'll be as disappointed as I have been when you realize again and again that this is not and will most likley never be the direction the game is headed. The only real challenge the Devs will give you is to overcome you tiredness of having to grind the same missions for thousands of hours before you can say you have collected every item 😉 .

[Uthael]

25 minutes ago, W3zeer said:

Eidolons were introduced as this big challenge for veterans and they too are failing miserably in doing that from the very start of their career.

Doubt it. I think Eidolons were more likely a test run for Monster Hunter gameplay. And imho, that went quite well. ... Although we could use more variety for that.
The rest is the sad truth. Most MMOs have this "problem".

What I don't get is:
Why don't the devs let us choose the starting point of that scaling? Those Arbitrations (probably "arbs" soon enough) really should start above 100.

Edited October 11, 2018 by Uthael

[ljmadruga]

11 minutes ago, Uthael said:

Why don't the devs let us choose the starting point of that scaling? Those Arbitrations (probably "arbs" soon enough) really should start above 100.

Because higher level enemies grant a decent amount of affinity allowing players to level their weapons faster and get an actually decent amount of focus through regular gameplay.

[Uthael]

1 minute ago, ljmadruga said:

Because higher level enemies grant a decent amount of affinity allowing players to level their weapons faster and get an actually decent amount of focus through regular gameplay. 

That's easily done with ESO. And probably faster, too because of the spawning rules.

[W3zeer]

vor 23 Minuten schrieb Uthael:

Doubt it. I think Eidolons were more likely a test run for Monster Hunter gameplay. And imho, that went quite well. ... Although we could use more variety for that.
The rest is the sad truth. Most MMOs have this "problem".

What I don't get is:
Why don't the devs let us choose the starting point of that scaling? Those Arbitrations (probably "arbs" soon enough) really should start above 100.

Well then the Devs blatantly lied to us about the purpose of the Eidolons on their streams didn't they? 😉 You could be right though, if you look at it PoE seems to have drifted very quickly from THE big project to an now abandoned test run for the newest great open map, nothing really got improved upon or even extended before the successor had already been announced and taken away the ressources. As for the success of EIdolons, idk, I don't have any numbers and certainly can't speak for others. Just for me they felt extremly boring like jogging next to a very much uninteressted guy who makes many lights and noises without any sort of danger present and certainly not like an epic fight that was promoted beforehand. But that's just me 😉

[--END--Rikutatis]

9 minutes ago, W3zeer said:

Well then the Devs blatantly lied to us about the purpose of the Eidolons on their streams didn't they? 😉 You could be right though, if you look at it PoE seems to have drifted very quickly from THE big project to an now abandoned test run for the newest great open map, nothing really got improved upon or even extended before the successor had already been announced and taken away the ressources. As for the success of EIdolons, idk, I don't have any numbers and certainly can't speak for others. Just for me they felt extremly boring like jogging next to a very much uninteressted guy who makes many lights and noises without any sort of danger present and certainly not like an epic fight that was promoted beforehand. But that's just me 😉

That's a bit unfair, they added the two new eidolons alongside the arcane drop table, as well as the extended cave systems for the Plague Star event, and also added the Ghoul event as well. On top of a few other items here and there that you can grind for. 

EDIT: Also I enjoy the eidolons. They seem to be pretty popular judging by recruit chat every night cycle.

Edited October 11, 2018 by --END--Rikutatis

[W3zeer]

vor 17 Minuten schrieb --END--Rikutatis:

That's a bit unfair, they added the two new eidolons alongside the arcane drop table, as well as the extended cave systems for the Plague Star event, and also added the Ghoul event as well. On top of a few other items here and there that you can grind for. 

EDIT: Also I enjoy the eidolons. They seem to be pretty popular judging by recruit chat every night cycle.

Fair enough, although going by recruit chat is not the safest way of judging popularity, you could also see lots of ppl looking for the old raids, although I'm fully acknowledging that Eidolons get more traffic than those 😉 . And adding the Arcanes to the Eidolons was the consequence of removing unique content so I'm not even considering going to count that as a positive addition. The caves were already there btw and plaguestar in general is a dangerous example for something new because of its boss. I give you the Ghouls though. Problem was never the items but the fact that the bounties, which are the core mission gameplay, is still stuck in the sorry state it has been in since the bugs that made them literally unplayable have been wiped out (which took a while if you remember that). The grind in poe wouldn't be that bad if we had at least a bit more variety but instead every problem the Ostrons face can be solved with the same combination out of 6 very short mission types with lots of walking inbetween.

i wont argue about the fun of Eidolon hunting since that is completly down to taste and if you say you like it that's good enough for me I'm not in a position to define the general meaning of fun 😉 . For me it's not though and part of that is because they failed to bring the promised challenge and narrowed the game down to a fixed meta you need to bring to farm them efficiently and robbing the frames of their character while doing so (f.e. reducing Trinity to a bless machine for Lures, completly removing her energy restoring capabilities so she needs to eat pizza like crazy...my Trinity has gained lots of weight during those fights...). So while I'm not discussing what can count as fun, I do state that PoE never brought the promised entertainment for lategame players and has been abandoned far before it could realize its potential like so many other things that have been started in this game, which is why I fear that Fortuna and Railjack will meet the same fate and we will never get an in depth rework of the core mechanics like the enemies AI.

[Feltal]

10 hours ago, Wrum said:

thats what the new arbitration missions are for. coming hopefully this week.

Oh how sadly wrong you were. With these drop tables this is for midgame players who still have mods to max, not endgame.

[Khalinda]

@--END--Rikutatis

Well, of course they lowered the starting levels to 60, Reb and Meg died on the first excavator on the last prime time. That's their play testing. They die with Nezha on lvl 60 grineers and they're like "ok, this seems good enough".

[Zi-Sui]

18 hours ago, GnarlsDarkley said:

Yeah. But DE said many time: they don't want any. This game should stay casual which you can play for an hour and log off for the next day.

It doesn't matter what we want, as long as DE's mind is stick to mentioned attitude

Thanks for this info. Endgame doesn't have to be synonymous with harder content which DE seems to agree on, since there are sorties, eidolon hunts and now arbitrations.

I'm satisfied with this game being a kinda sandbox collector-tuner-shooter with twists and turns, soon 1k hours in and I'm nowhere near bored. This game is made for farmers like me, not for skilled easily-bored hardcore players even though it tries to cater for them too quite a bit. WoW is more for the latter even though it's a traditional MMO, at least it has constant new endgame content. It is much more limiting than warframe though, no bullet jumping and abilities are more boring, and normal enemies die ten times slower. Not missing that, I only played it for the story. The grind in Warframe is sweeter than in any game I played so far and that's something.

[--END--Rikutatis]

12 hours ago, W3zeer said:

... I do state that PoE never brought the promised entertainment for lategame players ...

We definitely agree on that part. It's not an endgame zone by any means, I just consider it another low to mid level casual and fun location. Like 99%of the game. The only exception would be the actual eidolons, which as you said yourself, is more subjective. While I don't think the trio fight in itself is difficult at all (although it's still much better than other boss fights in the game), at least the time limit on night cycles makes speedrunning a thing, so attempting 5x3 or 6x3 can be that challenge and requires a lot of coordination and communication. 

 

2 hours ago, Khalinda said:

@--END--Rikutatis

Well, of course they lowered the starting levels to 60, Reb and Meg died on the first excavator on the last prime time. That's their play testing. They die with Nezha on lvl 60 grineers and they're like "ok, this seems good enough".

That's very sad, but true. I just hope to dear Lotus that all the salt from people dying and failing that mission (specially in public matches) won't be enough to make DE cave in and make it even easier than it already is. I was very disappointed at lvl 60 starting level, but it's still looking like it'll be the best and most rewarding option for endurance runs in this game (outside of a few axi fissures that aren't always around). 

8 hours ago, Feltal said:

Oh how sadly wrong you were. With these drop tables this is for midgame players who still have mods to max, not endgame.

Honestly, it could have been better, but it's not so bad. Endo = plat for me, selling maxed primed mods, so at least it's not totally useless. 

[RiceHat_]

Hmmm I would rather have Cetus,Fortuna etc.. and future content rather than true endgame content that ends your goal or the game. But thats just my thing.

[GnarlsDarkley]

2 hours ago, Khalinda said:

They die with Nezha on lvl 60 grineers and they're like "ok, this seems good enough".

And why did Megan die? Because she didn't pay attention. Her shield ran out and she facetanked 2 or 3 seconds Lv60 Grineer. Ofc she died...

Edited October 12, 2018 by GnarlsDarkley

[KrazyKavatLady]

19 hours ago, Graves21 said:

Im just over 200+ in the game and honestly i don't think there's much to do anymore

Wow, really?

I'm sitting at 600+ hours and I've still got a lot to do; still need several frames, still need to do all but one of the side quests, still need to do more Eidolon hunts and make my first Zaw. I am also missing multiple weapons that need to be ranked up (I'm MR19 atm) as well.

This is a casual game with no real Endgame. Lets keep it that way, thanks.

[--END--Rikutatis]

1 minute ago, OriZulo said:

I'm sitting at 600+ hours and I've still got a lot to do; still need several frames, still need to do all but one of the side quests, still need to do more Eidolon hunts and make my first Zaw. I am also missing multiple weapons that need to be ranked up (I'm MR19 atm) as well.

This is a casual game with no real Endgame. Lets keep it that way, thanks.

So because you still have things to do in the progression grind, you basically don't want DE to add endgame for those of us who already finished that grind and don't want to sit inside captura all day? 

[(XBOX)Clockwork Geoff]

16 hours ago, Uthael said:

Get into pet breeding.

 

I need to start my own Kurbow breeding operation.

[(PSN)Schobii564]

45 minutes ago, --END--Rikutatis said:

So because you still have things to do in the progression grind, you basically don't want DE to add endgame for those of us who already finished that grind and don't want to sit inside captura all day? 

Endgame can never truly exist, case closed

[(PSN)Double991]

Law of Retribution and Jordas Verdict were actually on the right track with this. I was hoping for a Jordas Nightmare version. Also since they were themed around factions they set the groundwork for future content ideas.

We had our Grineer and Infested raid now just imagine trials for Corpus, Corrupted, Stalker, and Sentient. Those would generate massive hype for the people who want a challenge and some good team fun.

[KrazyKavatLady]

1 hour ago, --END--Rikutatis said:

So because you still have things to do in the progression grind, you basically don't want DE to add endgame for those of us who already finished that grind and don't want to sit inside captura all day? 

No, that's not what I said or implied. 

This game does great without a standard end game. 

If you're unhappy with that, well congrats, WF is also the kind of game you can stop playing for a few months and then come back and not actually be behind. That's one of the things that makes it great. This game will be constantly adding new content and things to do for at least a few more years; thus, no true endgame in sight.

Go play something else while you wait for more content and things to do. 

Warframe is a marathon, not a sprint. 

Edited October 12, 2018 by OriZulo

[--END--Rikutatis]

36 minutes ago, (PS4)Schobii564 said:

Endgame can never truly exist, case closed

While I agree "challenging content" in WF cannot exist like it does in other similar games due to the nature of combat mechanics, I disagree endgame cannot ever exist. Take a scripted raid-like mission with coop puzzles like Law of Retribution and Jordas Verdict, except this time around don't make the entire mission revolve around puzzles. Instead mix in the puzzle aspect, with some sort of horde mode moments against high level enemies like what you have in ESO (just don't reuse those horrible efficiency drains from ESO, it ruined the game mode), and add in a couple eidolon-like boss fights that have a time limit on it in order to make it more challenging. Add a few random weekly modifiers and limitations (sortie modifiers, no gear usage, no revives, etc.). Put in some moments where players need to split up and do different tasks at the same time (like GTAo). I'm not saying people won't find a way to speedrun the thing with maximum efficiency, but even LOR and Jordas Verdict already had a dedicated fan base that ran those trials daily as their endgame, if they make it more fun and cinematic, with more engaging combat and bosses, interesting coop puzzles, add good special rewards, I'm sure even more people would get into it. 

And that's just one option. A clan vs clan, alliance vs alliance PVE/PVP competitive endgame is another entirely different route. Dark Sectors may have failed, but that doesn't mean it can't be done in a better way. Railjack has a lot of potential for that PVE/PVP hybrid experience. 

 

9 minutes ago, OriZulo said:

...

Go play something else while you wait for more content and things to do. 

I did, I was playing Monster Hunter World until recently, and right now I'm just focusing on other RL hobbies I have. I just want to see the game I love the most develop to its full potential, and IMO that potential includes having an endgame and keeping veterans and clans engaged, keeping that social aspect of the game alive. The most successful MMOs I've played all had that. People wouldn't be complaining about content droughts so much if WF had a truly coop/social endgame with more longevity than these game modes they release where all you do is hit the node, get the rewards and never come back again. Tactical alerts offered a little taste of that with clan leaderboards and competition. 

[AlinaBee]

New system or planet will always be made easy and accessible to casuals - and its only fair to allow everyone to experience new content ... But we need tiers of difficulty within, so there could be interesting challenge and progression for experienced players too.

Yet there is none, unless you waste few hrs in endless you cant access challenging enemies. We've had massive buffs to weapons and frames and everything to make even lvl100 easy, yet there is no harder content and DE refuses to give even a single mission to veterans to put all the OP gear and teamplay to test.

'Elite alerts' are still below sortie3 level, WHY?  Notice how no one is even talking about tactics and builds to beat Elite alerts, only about the rewards. There is no excitement about the gameplay part. Cause we all know we'll just stroll thought them with no challenge, farm the drops and forget about it. Another boring farm instead of what we were promised.  When was the last time you had any excitement in a mission because you faced a challenge and struggled to win and had to put in team effort? Warframe lacks any of this.

This is the state of the game ( timestamped at 10:50), 100% accurate

Edited October 12, 2018 by AlinaBee

[nokinoks]

a lot of people don't want to give up "strength" for "challenge".  The scaling in this game is bad so there's no two ways about it. For an end game content to be a real end game content, it needs to lean towards challenge and due to scaling both from enemy and WF side, power would have to be secondary. But people don't want that, I want it. I want smarter enemies in a different type of gameplay that will understandably not allow press 4 to nuke (or at least limit it) but no one wants to explore this approach even slightly.

[(PSN)Schobii564]

1 hour ago, --END--Rikutatis said:

While I agree "challenging content" in WF cannot exist like it does in other similar games due to the nature of combat mechanics, I disagree endgame cannot ever exist. Take a scripted raid-like mission with coop puzzles like Law of Retribution and Jordas Verdict, except this time around don't make the entire mission revolve around puzzles. Instead mix in the puzzle aspect, with some sort of horde mode moments against high level enemies like what you have in ESO (just don't reuse those horrible efficiency drains from ESO, it ruined the game mode), and add in a couple eidolon-like boss fights that have a time limit on it in order to make it more challenging. Add a few random weekly modifiers and limitations (sortie modifiers, no gear usage, no revives, etc.). Put in some moments where players need to split up and do different tasks at the same time (like GTAo). I'm not saying people won't find a way to speedrun the thing with maximum efficiency, but even LOR and Jordas Verdict already had a dedicated fan base that ran those trials daily as their endgame, if they make it more fun and cinematic, with more engaging combat and bosses, interesting coop puzzles, add good special rewards, I'm sure even more people would get into it. 

And that's just one option. A clan vs clan, alliance vs alliance PVE/PVP competitive endgame is another entirely different route. Dark Sectors may have failed, but that doesn't mean it can't be done in a better way. Railjack has a lot of potential for that PVE/PVP hybrid experience. 

 

I did, I was playing Monster Hunter World until recently, and right now I'm just focusing on other RL hobbies I have. I just want to see the game I love the most develop to its full potential, and IMO that potential includes having an endgame and keeping veterans and clans engaged, keeping that social aspect of the game alive. The most successful MMOs I've played all had that. People wouldn't be complaining about content droughts so much if WF had a truly coop/social endgame with more longevity than these game modes they release where all you do is hit the node, get the rewards and never come back again. Tactical alerts offered a little taste of that with clan leaderboards and competition. 

You do give very good examples of things that might work, but some people will argue that once you've got all the rewards those have to offer that they'll need some new endgame

I'm also very excited about railjacks potential

 

[ikkabotz]

Another thought, we need to start getting away from the term "end game" and start using "more game". It's not like the goal is to have some final destination and plotted towards the end goal of the game. We simply need an environment to play in (meaning specifically an environment to play in, not "extra" to burn through existing schema). End game I think is almost attached to this stigma of thoughts that it's for top tier players or to a final curtain call to the content. Right now we arent just in an end game drought, but rather a drought of playability. 

I'd almost rather say that this isn't a question of "content" that it's actually a question of gameplay itself...which has been a long term, systemic issue that recurrs as the playerbase catches up to it. This has been an ongoing "issue" for years and years. Warframe needs something more detailed than the grind and generic AI schema.

We need improvements to the gameplay itself, not more stuff to distract us from this long term problem. I'm tired of seeing this come full circle as players who aren't as "new" to the game anymore are seeing it for what is and called out for in the past. This issue is more transparent than it plays itself to be...

Edited October 12, 2018 by ikkabotz