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Just now, Walkampf said:

Warframe isn't an MMO, it's a lobby based co-op shooter, like Left4Dead.

Your statment is simply wrong. 


The game has the massive multiplayer tag on steam.

This argument isn't a semantic one anyway. Stop trying to make one simply in an attempt to claim the other points are now redundant.

Regardless if the game is defined as an MMO or lobby based co-op shooter the same principal of progression is still relevant.

So, with that disagreement in definition aside, do you actually have any valid points to present.

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vor 2 Minuten schrieb tair_:

The game has the massive multiplayer tag on steam.

Those are user-made. There are a lot of people who don't know what they are talking about, just as you.

 

vor 4 Minuten schrieb tair_:

So, with that disagreement in definition aside, do you actually have any valid points to present.

Riven Mods are a gambling mechanic. Those are a disgusting trend in videogames and Rivens should be removed instead of being made even more prominent.

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13 minutes ago, Walkampf said:

Those are user-made. There are a lot of people who don't know what they are talking about, just as you.

 

Riven Mods are a gambling mechanic. Those are a disgusting trend in videogames and Rivens should be removed instead of being made even more prominent.

Right, so it is defined as a popular user tag. This is acquired by taking the most common tags used by the player base. So you already have the majority of the player base, whom assign a tag, disagreeing with you. Could you provide a link to a statement endorsed by DE that assigns this game a set genre to end this pointless argument.

You can argue anything is a game that rewards loot is a gambling mechanic. Simply completing a mission to gain loot could be considered a gambling mechanic. Instead of said input being a game resource it is your time. So many mechanics in this game by your definition would be gambling, take mod transmutation for example.

So would you prefer to see this game have all gear available to every one at all times so there is no longer any form of perceived gambling.

You are also yet to define fun relative to this game.

The idea that gambling in video games is a disgusting trend is a very FOTM opinion that generally relates more to monetary investment for literal loot boxes that have no published drop rates. Gambling in forms like you describe with the riven has been a normal mechanic in a massive variety of games for a very long time. Why is this method of "gambling" so disgusting and why does it have such a negative impact on the game as a whole.

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Gerade eben schrieb tair_:

Right, so it is defined as a popular user tag. This is acquired by taking the most common tags used by the player base. So you already have the majority of the player base, whom assign a tag, disagreeing with you.

This isn't a matter of "agreeing", it's a matter of fact, that those people are wrong.

Also, Dark Souls had, for a very long time, the tags 'dating sim' and 'calming'.

Hundreds of years ago, most people thought the earth is flat. They were factually wrong.

Hundreds of years ago, only a single person believed that illnesses were caused and spread by living things which you couldn't see and the majority of people called him insane.

False facts are false, that's a fact, no matter how many people believe in them.

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26 minutes ago, Walkampf said:

This isn't a matter of "agreeing", it's a matter of fact, that those people are wrong.

Also, Dark Souls had, for a very long time, the tags 'dating sim' and 'calming'.

Hundreds of years ago, most people thought the earth is flat. They were factually wrong. 

Hundreds of years ago, only a single person believed that illnesses were caused and spread by living things which you couldn't see and the majority of people called him insane.

False facts are false, that's a fact, no matter how many people believe in them.


Seeing as you are completely unable to provide any factual backing to your claim around this point I will do it for you.

Here is a quote directly from the Warframe website: "A third-person, co-op focused action game at its core.." 
The wiki lists it as:"Third Person Sci-fi Shooter"
Wikipedia lists it as: "This Person Shooter"
Metacritic lists it as: "Action, General, Shooter, General, Shooter, Third-Person, Sci-Fi, Arcade"

So, your apparent "fact" is incorrect. You are the one claiming a fact when it is false regardless if you will accept it or not.

Are you going to continue to insist on ignoring anything else that is actually relevant to the topic? You attempt to prove your opinion as fact with using unrelated anecdotes is amusing. So please, I am happy to continue the discussion that is more relevant to the topic now that you have been proven wrong.

 

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vor 39 Minuten schrieb tair_:

Are you going to continue to insist on ignoring anything else that is actually relevant to the topic? You attempt to prove your opinion as fact with using unrelated anecdotes is amusing

*sigh*

OK, let me explain the whole issue, very very slowly, in small words, so you finally understand.

You claim, it that Warframe is an MMO, and thus need ever increasing powerlevels so the game needs endless farming to always have players work toward something.

This claim is wrong, even if it's backed up by a large amount of other people.

And since Warframe is in it's core not capabe of providing ever increasing enemies-levels which are handcrafted by DE, since DE does not empoly enough people do craft this content by hand. This is the reason, why they have to rely on automatic Level scaling. This sytem however has the serious flaw, that enemies are very easy to kill until a certain point. right after this point the whole system toppels over and the enemies suddenly become infuriatingly strong.

Powercreep is a very real problem in Warframe, since items and mods get stronger, step by step enemies become very weak, which makes the game boring. Difficulty is a very real problem, which DE is trying to fix with bandaides like the elite alerts.

Increasing Kuva whould only increase the amount of chances to get a god-tier riven and thus makes trivial content even more easy, puting DE on the spot to indrotuce even more bandaides in order to keep the game from getting a cooky-clicker-game.

This is the reason, why your opinion that Warframe is an MMO is simply BS and why it's important that it's not an MMO and as a bonus, you are not smart.

I hope this helps,

have a nice day.

Edited by Walkampf
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My real problem with them is that they disable the endless aspect of the missions. The healer/bubble problems will obviously be fixed, but I dont see how these drones fit the endless aspect of the missions.

Weapons don't scale indefinitely, you need to rely on abilities/covert lethality to kill after a certain point. But hey, these sentinels are immune to both and they also dissable any chance for friendly fire to kill them as they make everything immune to CC or RAD procs. After just the first hours of an endless run they would gain so much EHP that killing them would no longer be possible with only weapons, at which point with their current spawn rate they'll make nearly all enemies immune to damage.

These missions are supposed to be "endless"(excluding non-game related factors like noone wanting to spend more than few hours in), not with finite with a soft cap.

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3 minutes ago, Walkampf said:

OK, let me explain the whole issue, very very slowly, in small words, so you finally understand.

Can you at least first read and understand mine? I never claimed it to be an MMO in the previous post. I gave you a direct quote from DE themselves to settle the fact that your claim was incorrect. Strawmanning me will get you nowhere, it only continues to prove your lack of intelligence.

Elite alerts are not a band aid to this power creep. It was a feature that had been requested numerous times and that's how they addressed it. Your constant refusal to back any claim with evidence leaves you with nothing to stand on.

Can you actually prove that adding kuva to this drop table would increase the amount of potent rivens available.

You cant even claim how many people are actually actively participating in this content so there is no factual backing to this claim. It is all simply speculation. Could they not just balance the drop rate so in simulation it was either on par or worse than other kuva farms. What is wrong with having it available on the drop table if it has to visible effect on the power creep. Power creep is also far more complex that how you simply describe it.

Your claims as to why DE has to rely on level scaling is also irrelevant. Level scaling is relevant in the vast majority of PvE based games like this. If there were a game that matched warframe in sheer content available along with having unique mechanics for any given encounter ever would this game not be wildly popular more so than anything else?

Thank you for the wishes. I hope you overcome your embarrassment soon and return with something worthwhile reading because the conversation so far has been poor on your behalf.

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vor 7 Minuten schrieb tair_:

Can you at least first read and understand mine? I never claimed it to be an MMO in the previous post.

 

vor 2 Stunden schrieb tair_:

The progression of gear is essentially fundamental to an MMO

 

vor 2 Stunden schrieb tair_:

The game has the massive multiplayer tag on steam.

 

vor 30 Minuten schrieb Walkampf:

you are not smart.

 

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vor 5 Stunden schrieb Fallen_Echo:

o its a bad idea because out 36 warframes (not counting variants) someone might get the luck to get the bonus for a frame what has aoe damage? 

Are you by any chance protest that the ignis, atterax and pretty much every aoe weapon is capatable of getting the +300% damage buff?

Before we go forward please explain to me whats the point in giving frames +300% strenght if they are unable to use it due to enemies completely ignoring powers?

The +300% bonus is to allow frame and weapon diversity, if you get +300% that might benefit even your AoE frame and weapon and I am absolutely not trying to forbid someone having fun with nuking the enemies. I enjoy that too.

But there is a difference between being effective in a mission and being dominating a mission. Some frames do deal massive amoutns of areal domination which enemies cannot recover from at any time. Saryn is such as frame but there are others as well. If you would remove the drones or if you would remove/nerf their protection then those frames would effectively ignore the whole "concept" behind arbitration.

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I've started playing Nekros almost 100% while doing Arbitrations, because just about everything he does is beneficial to the objective in one way or another. In survival, I'm doing my best to dismember enemies to maximize life support drops, and sometimes I get so into it, I'm not aware on how dangerously low the life support levels are. I've had to end several missions early so far, because they hit zero.

Yes, I know I need to try and pay more attention, but having some kind of warning like in other survivals would be a great feature.

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14 hours ago, Lisztomaniac said:

thats the point that people are not getting across, the mode cant be harder because it has no revives, DE cant take as many chances with it because the punishment for risk is too severe right now.

I do like no revives and dislike it at the same time.

While it provides an extra challenge you sort of get in a position where you can barely type a quick message to the team without risk of getting one shot by a new enemy spawn. Sure if i went a tank frame it wouldn't be an issue. But i prefer damage, utility and mobility frames.
Even if you could revive once but it brought a penalty eg, a frame specific penalty. Die as rhino and you cant use iron skin any more. Sort of simulating damage to the frame.
 

But without an increase of difficulty, no revives. Right now the main risks of dying are trying to type to players or falling asleep during the long tedious rotations.

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1 hour ago, DarkRuler2500 said:

The +300% bonus is to allow frame and weapon diversity, if you get +300% that might benefit even your AoE frame and weapon and I am absolutely not trying to forbid someone having fun with nuking the enemies. I enjoy that too.

But there is a difference between being effective in a mission and being dominating a mission. Some frames do deal massive amoutns of areal domination which enemies cannot recover from at any time. Saryn is such as frame but there are others as well. If you would remove the drones or if you would remove/nerf their protection then those frames would effectively ignore the whole "concept" behind arbitration.

But if the drones stay they effectively negate the boons what are there to promote frame and weapon diversity.

Yesterday i seen a picture from someone who got +300% strenght on chroma and +300% damage on the atterax, the literal of spin to win with even more power. This is supposedly a pve game where everybodies common goal should be to clear out targets and finish the mission and not to take top spot on some scoreboard, theres nothing wrong with dominating a mission. Hell its something people should be proud about and point fingers at saying "You see that? Thats how you deal with them".

DE needs to stop using these lazy mode "difficulty" addons and take a look around other horde shooters to find how can they make fine compromises with power fantasy and challanging content.

I would recommend them to take a look at Earth defense force 4.1 where weapons like the following exist:

And even if a hacker plays them and calls down infinite amount of them no one cares because whats important is that the bugs are dead and the earth was saved.

 

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Right now, I don't have any reason to play the Arbitrations.

All I'm getting is Endo, so I literally have no reason to play the gamemode other than offering a challenge. But if I wanted a challenge, I'd do the Sorties which always offer a better reward. 

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The biggest problem with the Arbitrations is the "Host Died > Host leaves to try again and screws everyone over"

There should be a penality for Aborting, if you made so that their Arbitration is considered complete if they do so, it will be enough.

Also, those who STAY, if you are dead for a while and the team decides "lets keep going 40 more minutes", you disconnect, and lose everything.

There should be conditions to keep your rewards and lose them:

You keep your rewards if:

  • You die and the time for Disconnecting runs out, which I think is 5-10 minutes? You keep everything you got before, but gets nothing that the team gets after your death.
  • The Host disconnects and you are send back to the Orbiter. Like in Fissure Missions where you are disconnected, Ordis gives you your things.

You dont keep anything and the Arbitration is considered ''complete'' if:

  • YOU Abort the mission.
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So far I'm finding the arbitration drones a massive problem and a turnoff from the mode altogether.

DE took shield ospreys and gave them FULL nullification powers + personal power immunity, it means any frame with an exalted weapon is utterly screwed because the then do 0 damage to drone and tagged enemies + the drone removes all ongoing effects on any unit it tags, completely shutting down frames like Nidus.

i'm perplexed that DE went this route honestly, Arbitrations per se aren't anything new because just recicle existing game modes with this new nuisance, more nullifier like units are very unwelcome when it could have been easier to outright ban specific frames to the missions they trivialize (like banning  Saryn from the mode permanently, frost and limbo and mesa from all point defense missions etc...) we got 36 frames and at least 25 newer see use because are completely overshadowed by a  few.

Prizes feel underwhelming and the expanded duration of missions looks like a cheap way to make the mode last longer, while discouraging players from staying  longer for the endless c rotations.

Host ragequitting is a problem as well...

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it's ok that the hexis drone can enter cataclysm bringing it with the enemies it linked to... but the drone cannot be destroyed in cataclysm yet the enemies inside can destroy the objective which cataclysm is protecting. Is that a bug or trolling?

The drone should be able to be destroyed in cataclysm with our guns or melee.

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Hello, i've been playing arbitrations for the past 5 days. I'd like to list a number of things i loved and what i don't.

What i like:
Different/New rewards - We can farm things here that aren't in the Star Chart like the new mods, or, are rare to find (like statues).That's great. Throw a Condition Overload in the Rotation A so people who doesn't visit Uranus that often is happy.

Difficulty: not having to wait the minimum of 1 hour to fight Sortie-level enemies is great. At first i thought that the starting point is too low, but it builds really fast. it's great. It's what i needed after feeling that adding 5 formas to a weapon is pointless.

The drones: It's great how this little unit makes it so players can't cheese and use strategies like spamming banshee's ult the entire mission. Warframe it's at it's best when we need to aim, shoot, move. When we need to (at least) have line of sight to oneshot enemies.

The buffs: I love how i get random buffs in my entire arsenal. I'm the kind of player who likes to complete things, so after 4/5 years i have (at least) the "best" version of every weapon in the game. Same with Warframes. 85% of my Arsenal has multiple formas, not to mention the rivens i farmed and rolled, so this mechanic proved to be awesome fun. It's like all that effort now goes to somewhere.

 

What i dislike:
-Rotation A. It's boring, drags too much. Right now, Survival it's the most convenient to play while Defense is the most terrible. Unless i assemble an specific team of warframes with other players, the first 10 waves of defense took me between 20-30m. Meanwhile survival is a guaranteed 10m.

-Mission "cooldown": Why can't we retry missions in the same hour? This feels a bit like the Nitain Extract or Syndicate/Focus Daily standing: it's like you don't want us to farm this too fast, even (as i stated before) you could take around 20 minutes just to get 1 or 2 essence. This specially annoying when you're forced to extract early because your squad doesn't want to go further in the defense, or someone has to go and can't leave the Survival alone.

 


Ideas that might improve Arbitrations:
-Fixing the pacing: Splitting Arbitrations in two
Same as Sanctuary Onslaught, having an "Elite" version of Elite Alerts (lol) and a common one, we might be able to sort some problems. For example: in the "Elite-Elite" we could go back to give prices every 5 waves/minutes/etc BUT increasing difficulty (maybe enemies will start at level 120 instead of 60). The "normal Elite" will stay the same with double rotation at level 60

-Fixing the CooldownHaving multiple Arbitrations with different missions: 
This is an easier solution: Instead of having one mission that rotates between endless types, have at least three of different types. Same as Fissures, so players can choose what to play. Also, if a player completes rotation A of a mission and extract, he could jump right into another mission type for another rotation A if he wants.

-Reworking Extraction and Matchmaking Systems:
This is where i feel i ask too much. This is something we've been asking for years now. I'd like to extract a Survival in the Rotation i want without having to wait other players. But also, when other players leave a mission, i'd like the game to ask me if i'd like to join another session of another player who is at the same rotation than me. This would GREATLY improve the game for players who want to stay longer and for those who leave early. But again, i might be asking too much

Edited by Arandabido
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 Feedback:

What's good:

  • One life is all you've got: I really like how this puts pressure on you to play more carefully especially as enemy damage ramps up. For the first time in years I felt somewhat in danger! I started to look out for and avoid enemies that I knew could hose me down. 
  • All the drones baby: These feel like more fair nullifiers. No AoE power removal shenanigans-they just force you to adapt around them using all the tools you have. They also prevent you from falling into a lull of mindless killing by making you actively hunt them. 
  • Interesting mods: What I really love about the rewards is how the mods are unique and make you think of using them in different builds. Most of the rewards are highly desirable, and the endo requirement lets you profit from the endo rewards as well. 
  • Interception enemy capture ramp up: I really like how you can't afford to let enemies cap the points now. Fighting to keep control over at least 3 zones from swarming enemies has revitalised this gamemode for me.

What's bad:

  • Just leave it: If your host dies, and chooses to leave in a P2P game...yeah that's not good. Public games see host migrations so much I've been forced to play them only with friends or solo. Even if your host migration succeeds? The game doesn't pause for you to finish loading so you either lose the objective or get killed, or someone else does and then it's an endless loop of host migrations. Terrible.
  • Drones for ants?!?: If you have a cluster of enemies, you quickly become unable to see the drones. Their red aura and lines connecting them to enemies is appreciated but in some tilesets they can blend in like the kuva fortress' red swathed walls, and bonus points if you have red energy/enemies have bright powers.
  • Glacial waves: Defense is absolutely PAINFUL. 30 minutes of slogging and mopping up stragglers for rotation B? No thanks. They are perhaps the most mind numbing alerts.
  • Where's the twist?Aside from interception none of the twists really make the gamemode feel any different, which is a shame!
  • Defend this!:  I'm tired of doing defense or survival every alert!
  • One entry only: Why the hour long cooldown? I want to enjoy the alert again!
  • Empty Store: The arbiter's store needs more desirable and unique cosmetics and mods! Armor for your warframe, syandanas, weapon skins, operator armor, etc!

Suggestions:

  • Make drones more visible! Make them bigger or have more visually catching auras.
  • Make the spins on defense, survival excavation and defense more interesting: Defense could just have 10 waves worth of enemies constantly barrage you with no breaks in between/have shorter waves with jacked up scaling and quadrupled spawns! Make it more intense bursts of action instead of drawn out suffering. Speed it up!
  •  GIVE US OTHER MISSION TYPES!
  • Add a challenge mode! On successfully extracting at least 2 roations on the normal alert, add subsequent "new game+" versions with only rotation C and hiked up enemy levels, such as starting on 80 on ng+, 120 on ng++, etc.
  • Add an option to add modifiers for bonus rewards! Enhanced armor, enhanced damage, etc!
  • Keep adding to the reward pool! The continued success of this mode will heavily depend on whether you guys can keep adding desirable mods for the community to chase.
  • Add in more gamemodes, even non-endless ones with dramatically increased difficulty and modifiers.

Overall: Enjoying the mode and looking forward to seeing more!

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Hello everyone! After few dozens of rounds on various arbitration missions I feel that its time to sum up a few things (despite many of those were already presented in this topic)

Pro's:

- One life - really love the concept. It's no longer "rambo stuff"  for me since teammates wont help when ill get destroyed by group of bombards 🙂. Player need to really analise his current situation and make decision if face-to -face encounter with group of foes is worth the risk or there is a need for a different tactic. Since the arbitrations' introduction i started to rely more on operator mode. I use power of the void to destroy drones or to transport power cells on excavations. This is quite refreshing since only real use for transference was eidolon hunting and kuva farming. 

Need for a different builds - This mode also forced me to to look once more at the builds of frame's that i usually run. Many of those needed tuning (like new formas, etc.) just to face the challenge. 

Foe's level - im glad that we no longer need to wait a long time on enemies with "sortie's levels" to show up.  

Excavations and infested salvages - really love those two on arbitrations. Why? To reach goal here whole team need to stay active and participate. we manage to complete 11 full rounds on excavation in little over an hour and it was really, really fun to play. Infested salvage is also nice and dynamic mission that require good team play. When one of the teammate's needed to go we decided to extract. When mission resultes pop up i couldnt belive that we were there for over 40 min. It was so fun i completely lost track of time.

Frame and weapon bonuses - nice idea guys (It made me play frames that i hadn't touch in some time 🙂) but if you ask me it needs improvement

Con's:

- double the length of rounds - In my opinion thats the core issue of new game mode. To achieve goals here you need to maintain concentration but its realy hard with double the length of rounds. I try to avoid defences and survivals because it's taking so long to complete the round that's not really worth the time invested (at least for me). Interceptions also take really long but i choose them as "lesser evil"

- Defence in general - Played it twice 'till rotation C. Took forever even with a decent team composition. What's worse in my opinion is a behaviour of defended NPC (as some guys wrote before he got a "death wish" like Gibson's character in"Leathal weapon" movies). Finishing round almost always require you to go hunt for that few enemies that didnt move from spawning point. After 2 runs i decided that i will not play arbitration defence till some core changes there. 

-no enemies on survival - tried it, wont play it till some changes. Survival in general is boring mission for me. But on Arbitration is even worse due to lack of enemies. we decided to go 5 rounds there and after 20 min it was hard fight to stay afloat with LS. Our Nekros was wandering if everything is ok with his build because drop of LS from few enemies that were there was laughable.  

- alert rotation - I'm active player but so far hadn't any chance to test defection mission 😛 . Played only 2 infestation salvages and few excavations. Gamemode seem to be dominated by defences and survivals with the interceptions at lowest step of the podium. And when i see them it's like " ok, not this time, will check at next full hour".

 

Suggestions:

- alert rotation - probably mentioned before, but i guess it would be nice if youll let us choose between missions. Maybe we would get 2 alerts instead of one? You still could choose only one of them but chance of havin access to your favorite mission would increase significantly.

- different bonuses -   many guys wrote it before but i guess its great idea. Why not give us not only strength but maybe increased armor, energy pool, duration? That would  encourage some further build tunning before specific missions. 

-drop tables expand - Endo is good, one cant have to much endo. But why stop there? I would like to see kuva there, or maybe small chance for riven mod? Something that will keep us there after gettin all 4 mods. 

- survival, defence and interception need changes - i will always choose excav over those 3, because here you can be passive for most time and still get job done. That leads to bordom, bordom leads to destractions, destractions here leads to death 🙂

defence - removal of waves is great concept. Just establish a constant number of enemies that need to be killed to finish round and make them swarm us.

Survivial -  shorten round to 7:30 min, and force us to be in move all the time. For example staying in room longer than 20 sec make LS dicrease faster.

Interception - How about foes disabling towers remotely and making them offline and useless?  One player need to activate tower again other need to pretect him while he do that? That would encourage team play

 

TL:DR

Positive:

1.One life, no revive - thumbs up

2. sortie lvls without sortie and hour warm up - thumbs up

3. missions that require active gameplay are rewarding - thumbs up

Negative:

defence, survival and interceptions are tooooooooooooo looooooooooong - thumbs down

alert rotation is terrible mostly def and surv - thumbs down

 

Without some changes this gamemode will be soon forgotten. Thats sad because i really love vision of missions that are way more challanging that those we encounter on regular basis. 

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17 hours ago, Styliaan said:

I do like no revives and dislike it at the same time.

While it provides an extra challenge you sort of get in a position where you can barely type a quick message to the team without risk of getting one shot by a new enemy spawn. Sure if i went a tank frame it wouldn't be an issue. But i prefer damage, utility and mobility frames.
Even if you could revive once but it brought a penalty eg, a frame specific penalty. Die as rhino and you cant use iron skin any more. Sort of simulating damage to the frame.
 

But without an increase of difficulty, no revives. Right now the main risks of dying are trying to type to players or falling asleep during the long tedious rotations.

The problem is that in a game like warframe which is a cooperative experience, no revives is far more punishing than it is difficult.  Frames that don't die still don't die, but frames that are squishy and prone to randomly dying become untenable.  Being forced into spectate indefinitely also sucks, and means you'll likely miss out on any rewards so you have no reason not to quit.

Edited by ReshyShira
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Solo survival spawns are still absolutely terrible. There are a maximum of three enemies at once around you, if even that when killing them quickly. I was playing on the Gas city tileset, but that is really the case at pretty much everywhere.

Edited by Wyrmius_Prime
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