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[PC] C̶̹̃h̴̊̍̐͜i̶͓̩͛̽m̸̨̈́͘e̴̤̒ŕ̸͉͋̕å̸̙̭͕: Update 23.10 - Arbitrations: Lethal Alerts Feedback Megathread


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13 hours ago, Arandabido said:


-Fixing the pacing: Splitting Arbitrations in two
Same as Sanctuary Onslaught, having an "Elite" version of Elite Alerts (lol) and a common one, we might be able to sort some problems. For example: in the "Elite-Elite" we could go back to give prices every 5 waves/minutes/etc BUT increasing difficulty (maybe enemies will start at level 120 instead of 60). The "normal Elite" will stay the same with double rotation at level 60

I would absolutely love this. Two difficulty modes for Arbitrations, one of which already starts at lvl 120 and gives you rewards every 5 min/rounds, not 10. I've been reading the forums and all the feedback on Arbitrations and I get this feeling most of the people enjoying the game mode (despite it's flaws with scarce spawns and host migrations) are those that have been asking for a challenge for a while now. Exactly the same players who would have enjoyed a higher enemy starting level. Lvl 60 isn't even sortie 3/flood level, and that's unfortunate. 

Other than that, DE really needs to look into enemy spawns for some of these game modes. It's been an issue since always, except before it only used to bother people trying to do long endless runs. Now with Arbitrations and the extra requirements of 75% life support only, etc, it becomes painfully obvious there aren't enough enemies spawning in these endless missions, specially if you're playing solo (which a lot of people are due to host migrations in public). Please DE, if you want this game mode to succeed, you need to address enemy spawns. Also the latest hotfixes didn't completely fix pathing yet, I still see enemies stuck around corners and inside the spawn room. 

EDIT: Would this be possible for enemy spawns: if an enemy is too far from the player (X meters), he will instantly despawn/teleport closer to the player. If an enemy isn't moving for X amount of time, he will instantly despawn/teleport closer to the player. And then just have them spawn closer to the player, kinda like ESO. This would alleviate the issues of enemies getting stuck and/or lagging behind the player when he is on the move, thus thinning out spawns. 

Edited by --END--Rikutatis
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I can't say I'm a fan of the "no revives" mechanic, for many of the reasons listed above.

My own experience with runs seems to go as follows: One player gets one-shot early on, we go on with 3 until after first reward until another player gets one-shot... Then the last player leaves after second reward and I either continue solo (nope!) or leave with 700 endo and nothing to do for the other 50 mins.

Edited by MrVenris
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On 2018-10-15 at 12:53 PM, Radagosh said:

that's why i suggested removing the rewards altogether and instead expand the token system which may include sculptures, endo, kuva, arcanes, keys, whatever.

But hey that would be less RnG and actually rewarding. And DE really likes their RnG in spite of them telling us they want to reduce the grind.

 

Huh?? Do you know what kind of game you're playing?

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On 2018-10-14 at 3:30 AM, DreisterDino said:

You say it is not as challenging as you wanted it to be, still you want to be able to be revived by teammates, get your arcane revives and even the possibilty to earn extra revives?

 

I really like it that you have no revive, its one of the most important aspects of this gamemode to make it different to others.

I noticed that i really play the game a bit more carefully because every mistake could be my end. I have to be more cautious when i am playing this gamemode.

 

As soon as we are able to revive each other and get to revive ourselves, this will immediatly change back to what every other gamemode is like.

It doesnt matter anymore if you get killed, you dont have to pay as much attention to the game and the feeling of challenge will be gone.

And at that point it doesnt matter if the enemies are lvl 300 or 500 or 10000, they oneshot me, i get revived or revive myself and proceed.

TO be fair, i think bleedouts should stay. But no other means of ressurecting (aside from modded stuff like Sacrifice and Arcanes, because those are in your build).
Haven't played Nidus or Inaros on Arbitrations, what happens when they die? DO their passives kick in? If so, then it makes sense that other build-based means of ressing are kept viable.

So, no to earning resses as you progress.

Why though? Well, last time i played (only played it twice, a survival and a defense, it's not fun for me, especially with the low spawn rates). The second time, we were just chatting away inside my frost bubble and destroying enemies outside it. And someone linked a riven, i previewed it, and died... Inside a huge frost bubble, from max to 0. I'm not even sure it was a bug or a legit kill, but there's a lot of people complaining about the same thing, they just die out of nowhere. And in this game mode, that can't be allowed to happen. Having a bleedout timer, allowing you to be ressed by team mates and or built in modded means would reduce the strain from these random acts of RNGesus.

Aside from that, i think the entire reward structure and the time change is detrimental to the game mode. It's pretty much geared towards the already niche population that enjoys 2h survivals, just for the "challenge". And since those people already have that, maybe making it rewarding for those of us that are mindful of spending our time efficiently, might improve the odds that this won't be the next Lunaro.

Because as it is, without any changes, as soon as people get their mods (or just Adaptation, since it's the only good mod out of the bunch), they'll do it once in a stormy season when out of endo. The mode isn't fun, and the rewards aren't liable to make it a repeat occurrence after you get them.

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vor 2 Stunden schrieb LupisV0lk:

What is this? Destiny 2? No, keep that token garbage out of warframe. Gawd just the mention of it triggers my ptsd from D2 and it's glories token system.

don't know what you associate with tokens never played the triple a warframe clone that still needs microtransactions and dlcs to keep going. But what I mean is stuff that prevents the following picture. Btw those are just the filled ones, missing the amber stars to complete it at the moment.

zXmgoeD.jpg

 

vor 39 Minuten schrieb Hypernaut1:

Huh?? Do you know what kind of game you're playing?

I know there is a need for RnG in this game. However, at some point, the systems become ridiculous (see Rivens). Also, we already have a token shop for the alerts, so why not expand it with stuff more people can enjoy instead of giving us an objectively worse Endo farm.

Rewards keep people playing and with Elite alerts giving no worthwhile rewards it will become just like ESO, defection or infested salvage. Interesting ideas none plays because it's not the most efficient way to gain resources.

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29 minutes ago, Radagosh said:

don't know what you associate with tokens never played the triple a warframe clone that still needs microtransactions and dlcs to keep going. But what I mean is stuff that prevents the following picture. Btw those are just the filled ones, missing the amber stars to complete it at the moment.

zXmgoeD.jpg

 

I know there is a need for RnG in this game. However, at some point, the systems become ridiculous (see Rivens). Also, we already have a token shop for the alerts, so why not expand it with stuff more people can enjoy instead of giving us an objectively worse Endo farm.

Rewards keep people playing and with Elite alerts giving no worthwhile rewards it will become just like ESO, defection or infested salvage. Interesting ideas none plays because it's not the most efficient way to gain resources.

Tokens can feel like even more if a grind IMO. Chances are It wouldl be balanced around doing the same number of tries as RNG. So you really gain nothing overall. 

Either you play 50x for a likely chance of an item, or grind 50x missions with no excitement attached to rewards.

Edited by Hypernaut1
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I've been excited ever since Arbitrations were a concept, Elite alerts that have higher level enemies from the start and scale up and test your abilities. Unfortunately I don't think this is the case currently.

Enemy levels are fine and the rate they increase is also fine. I like the mission diversity but it has a few issues that could be adressed:

Rotations - Why did they have to be 10 minutes? this isn't a 'challenge' it's just plain annoying personally, You spend 10 minutes for a rotation to only get...endo. or a sculpture you have thousands of at this point with a rare chance for one of the new mods, it's an easy fix, IF the drop tables are going to be 80% endo then revert it back to 5 minute rotations, I don't get the reasoning behind this at all.

One life - This isn't much of a challenge, it just kills the enjoyment of the game, certain frames are a no go in arbitrations, infact, most of them are a no go, Ember 300% power strength? sounds decent but considering how high level enemies are, you'd end up one shotted without running a tanky build of anything which completely destroys this mission. I've seen many Gara's and Trinity's around running full tank builds due to this which REALLY kills diversity, if you run anything else you are likely to get one shotted by the nullifier that is protected by a drone making them invincible while the drone hides behind WAVES of enemies, simple fix, revert it back to revives like the standard missions, one life was never anything any veterans of the game complained about, we never mentioned 'We only need one life to make this a challenge', because it feels REALLY cheap to be bullet jumping to the next excavator and end up one shotted by a bombard. or nullifier.

The Drone - Oh boy the drone, it's small, fast, annoying to hit, immune to abilities, everything you'd really hate about the nullifier except it ADDS it to every enemy in it's radius, why was this a thing? when we mean challenge we mean a challenge, not an enemy that makes everything invincible until it's killed that ends up hiding behind 20 or so grineer in a tunnel, simple fix, increase the drone size if it HAS to stay. if not then just outright remove it. it's a fun killer. a major one.

Rewards - The rewards are bad, let's be honest, unless you LOVE endo you'll likely never touch this gamemode again after farming the mods it offers. there's nothing to keep you coming back and the challenge it offers isn't much of a challenge but more of a chore of one shot enemies, invincible enemies, double rotation times and a meta that involves nothing but tanking and survivability over anything else. the rewards need to be changed badly if the game mode is to survive, even with endo there are better endo farms out there that don't put invincible enemies and one life in your face.

These are my thoughts on the gamemode overall, initially I was excited but that faded very quickly with how incredibly boring these runs get with the time between rotations and rewards, enemy damage scaling is also a culprit, this needs to be adressed across the board, I don't mind enemies doing more damage at a higher level, I just hate the fact that you can be one shotted by a grineer that is running the opposite direction instantly at times, one shots are bad.

Your opinions may vary.

Edited by Latiac
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5 minutes ago, Latiac said:

Enemy levels are fine and the rate they increase is also fine.

Sry mate, but I dont agreed with you!

Check this screenshot and tell me what u see?

31e767a76d3789213733ebb3ea32415d.JPG&key

Level 60-80

That is how must to be scaled enemies every rotation.

Many of us can see enemies 90+ 100+ etc.

So that doesnt match this, what DEVS are represent in their game.

Level 60-80

Level 60+ is correct

U know why? Cuz the more waves or minutes u stay in the game higher and higher level enemies coming.

So, there is no have limit of enemies like DEVS are writed (Level 60-80), level 80 is not max level.

 

Correct scaling enemies must to be: Level 60 starting, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65.....79, 80 Max level!

That is scaling, and scales every rotation by 1 Level!

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I like the idea of buffing a random warframe or weapon, but it might open up more build options if the buff were more generic. Unless you really want an ultra slow Nova build, +300% Strength isn't as useful as, say, +300% Duration. Maybe if the warframe buffs were instead:

"+300% to your highest warframe stat"

 

And if you have multiple stats with the same value it averages the buff between them. Conveniently, 300% if one is highest, 150% to each if two tie, 100% to each if three are tied, and 75% if all four are equal somehow (that coveted vanilla 100/100/100/100 build...). The drones already pretty much prevent max range builds from overtaking arbitrations like some other game modes.

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As others have said: spawn rates and pathing need to be improved, for Defense and Survival especially. Excavation as well I would say, although I have not encountered any issues with that mode personally. Interception and Excavation are the only two that don't really feel agonizing right now. Maybe even look at adjusting the intervals.

But, some suggestions for rewards:

Remove the Mods From the Rotations: Just take them out and give them to the merchant to be purchased with the Vitus Essence. Leave the Endo and Sculptures in but adjust the drop chance. Put in some Kuva or other rewards, maybe pre-built forma. 

Add More Rewards to the Merchant: Cosmetic items like armor sets, syandanas, sugatras, or special weapon or warframe skins, warframe helmets. etc. Or maybe special alternate versions of current weapons, similar to the vandal/wraith/mara/prisma weapons. Or maybe just some entirely new weapons. Or have him sell Kuva if you don't want it as a random drop. 

Make the Random Buffs More Random: Do something other than Strength for Warframes, toss Range or Duration in there. Or give a buff to one thing while reducing another, make them interesting. Maybe try doing the same for weapons, have it add or reduce elemental damage, adjust status or crit chance/damage.

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Il y a 2 heures, Hypernaut1 a dit :

Tokens can feel like even more if a grind IMO. Chances are It wouldl be balanced around doing the same number of tries as RNG. So you really gain nothing overall. 

Either you play 50x for a likely chance of an item, or grind 50x missions with no excitement attached to rewards.

neither tokens, nor RNG are a good choice, standing is the way to go, its clear how much you get, you can have an idea of how much youre missing from the rewards you want, and it also gives you a mostly clear indication as to how many games itll take to get said items, however being endgame, the syndicate that handles this standing should have really expensive rewards, but also rewards that are worth it, like exclusive standing armor sets, syandanas, mods, maybe even a real expensive exclusive warframe, things that you cant get in half a day, things that take at least a week of work but are worth said work.

as long as we keep getting instant gratification endgame cant work, because in endgame youre suposed to work towards goals, if you have x% chance to get to the goal on your 1st arbitration, then is not endgame, its just another recycled mode with increased dificulty. we already have a syndicte system in place but just like every other system they are just implemented and forgotten..

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2 hours ago, AvPCelticPredator said:

Correct scaling enemies must to be: Level 60 starting, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65.....79, 80 Max level!

That is scaling, and scales every rotation by 1 Level!

oh honey, is this your first time noticing this? do you really expect enemies to cap out at 80? is this the first endless you played?

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38 minutes ago, Rawbeard said:

oh honey, is this your first time noticing this? do you really expect enemies to cap out at 80? is this the first endless you played?

Lemme see!

For example: If DEVS write "We are fix Revenant....!"

Do u really expect from them that "thing" will be fixed?

Here is my answer to you!

If u are little smart u will figured out.

Have a nice day.

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I cant go back and read 20 pages, and I'm fairly sure others probably similar or the same opinions but:

  • BIGGEST ISSUE: Host migrations due to host death.  Then failed host migration all progress lost.  Gee, who could possibly have predicted this might be an issue when DE hasn't fixed host migrations - ever - and now provides a game mode where a player cant revive and has no participation. 
  • Its SLOOOOOW - I mean obnoxiously slow. Between the increased enemy difficulty, the immunity drones, and the double the time to complete a rotation, it averages 10 minutes or more per rotation.  I've only gone to the FIRST rotation C once mostly because no one has the time to hang around for 30 minutes, and if they do, they probably died already.  So ABCCCC is pointless.
    • The Double duration is pointless - its already slowed down from a regular mission due to the higher enemy levels.  And gets slower the longer you progress as teammates die.
  • Immunity Drones - they need to have a timer where they self destruct.  Specifically on  Defense missions since DE can't seem to keep them from spawning underground, in the walls, or countless other places you have to pray someone has enough punch through on their weapons to reach.
  • REWARDS - just ditch the stupid statues and give me the endo directly. bad enough I have to waste so much time to get a reward, now you make me waste more time filling these damn things with stars since you won't give us a "FILL ALL" options and we have to sit through the animation and spinning the statue again and again.  and again.  and again.
  • Limited mission type.  Give us the option of 2 or 3 to choose from.  I can't stand the defense with the NPC & the drones in the walls - but that means I dont even have an alternative. If (for some reason) you want to limit us to one an hour, once you've selected it, the others are marked done as well. 
  • The hourly limit - really? why? it takes darn near  a freakin hour to finish one of these any way.  AND if your team sucks and exctracts after rotation A, you're just done for the hour.

 

Positives:

  • I like the enemy difficulty
  • I like the WF & Weapon boost
  • In general its much MUCH better implemented and thought out than the ESO saryn love fest.

 

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I personally think these missions should have better rewards like fully built Forma ,Fully built Orokin Reactors and Catalyst,Kuva,Skins,Armor,and also I think that the bonuses should only be for the weapons you have.If this is truly going to the "Mission for the veterans"  the rewords have to be worth it or it is going to be a dead mission type that no one will play thank you for reading this have an awesome day

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I'm kind of liking these, but kind of not.  Some things that are dragging me down:

Doubled rotation duration doesn't really make it that much harder, it just makes it more of an unenjoyable slog, especially since right now enemy spawns are not in a good place, and excavation has already been made longer due to the prolonged timers.  At the very least, I feel that rotations should go back to their normal state (every 5 minutes/5 waves/1 round/2 squads) once a player hits rotation C.  Preferably, I'd like to see the reward rotations changed to AABBCCCCCCCCCC... at their normal state, but skipping the first reward entirely, but some might feel like that's too much.

The immunity drones don't bother me too much, but they have some issues.  The biggest one is that Ancient Healer auras can affect them, so if one links to a Healer, the best option is to just leave the area and fight elsewhere, because the drone will protect the enemies, and the drone will be very hard to kill because the Healer is protecting it.  Defensive Eximus auras, while not as severe, carry the same problem.  It would be nice if the drones were immune to all enemy and allied powers, so that while our powers can't affect them, they don't become near immortal because of their allies' powers.  Also, they suffer from the same pathing issues as other AI's are right now, which can make them get stuck, which in turn worsens other enemies' pathing because their pathing makes them want to stay by the drone.  Sometimes, I kill a few drones, and then I don't see one again for a good 10 minutes.  Or ever.  It's also kind of strange that they have a tendency to kill enemies in a large area around themselves when killed due to their explosion.

Rewards are somewhat lacking.  The rotation issue, combined with their awful drop rate, means that farming the mods that drop in arbitrations is a very painful grind that has already gotten old.  The Vitus shop, while a good idea, needs more to make me really interested in collecting Vitus Essence.  Built Forma, Exilus Adapters, Catalysts, Reactors, Orokin Cells, Argon, more unique mods, Rivens, and Kuva could all be welcome additions that would make Vitus Essence worth farming, since we almost always need more of all of these things no matter how late game we are.  More frame cosmetics would be nice too, for those of us who aren't too interested in Ikeaframe.  And I suppose more ship decorations too, for those who are interested in Ikeaframe.  As is, I won't really feel like I have a reason to touch Arbitrations once I get the 4 mods in the drop table, and I will stop enjoying them long before that happens.

The boosters seem rather broken.  Some prime frames don't get bonuses when their base forms do, which rather put me out when I discovered that some frames that I only have prime versions of won't benefit from boosters.  It would be appreciated if you could clear up whether or not variant weapons (Prime, Wraith, Prisma, Vandal) benefit from the damage bonuses as well.  It wouldn't seem right to punish players for seeking out the stronger variants, so I hope that variants not always benefiting is a mistake.

I've noted it a few times before, but pathing really needs some fixes, because it makes arbitrations into all the wrong kinds of endurance tests.

All that said, I am enjoying the relatively frequent, more difficult content that rewards staying in for a long time that arbitrations provide.  I just...bet I'd like them a lot more if they didn't have these issues.

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I think it'd be much better if they raised the starting enemy level back to 80 and changed the reward increments back to how they always were(every 5 mins, every 5 waves). A small change but it'd be a welcome one; the extra time just stacks up too much for me to want to invest in the mode.

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Just to add another map with old issues that we're re-visiting because of this mode:

Kala-azar/Akkad have pathing issues.

I went into a Kala-azar defense arbitration. Sometimes mobs get stuck in the spawn rooms or get stuck in clusters around tight corners. The new drones also have issues pathing here. Sometimes they get stuck in the hallways or spawn as well. As time goes on and you get more larger mobs and more mobs in general, they seem to get stuck in clusters in the tight corridors even more. I only went 20 waves because it was basically a per-round issue by that point that I had to walk around killing clusters of mobs who were stuck in the corridors. 

Sometimes the taller infested spawn in rooms they can't even get out of because they're too tall to even walk out of the room:

https://imgur.com/a/u8l1JX0

Overall it felt very slow and unrewarding between the mobs getting stuck and having to wait 10 waves per minor reward. 

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