[PC] C̶̹̃h̴̊̍̐͜i̶͓̩͛̽m̸̨̈́͘e̴̤̒ŕ̸͉͋̕å̸̙̭͕: Update 23.10 - Arbitrations: Lethal Alerts Feedback Megathread

[Cliff_Racer]

FEEDBACK TIME FEEDBACK TIME RANT TIME RANT TIME

I don't like Arbitration missions! I feel like the amount of extra work the player puts in to get rewards was both over and underestimated when designing the mission type, and they really don't feel all that much more lethal than regular missions. Also, the rewards suck for how much time they eat up.

PROBLEM ONE: THE TIME INVESTMENT

Arbitration missions are all designed to take twice as long to get to your reward intervals, and this is on top of whatever changes were done to the mission types baseline. I, personally, can hardly play endless missions anymore. I want the reader to keep this very clear: I can barely play to a single C rotation without getting extremely drowsy, I'm not being hyperbolic, mental exhaustion sinks in very fast. This means that having to put in the time I'd usually have put in for a single C reward for any other mission, JUST for an A and a B, is plain unappealing. It's too much time to spend in a single mission for someone who can't spare over 20 minutes of attention span.

The Plains of Eidolon really messed me up.

PROBLEM TWO: THE REWARDS

What rewards? I dont need endo, I don't WANT more ayatans, and if I ever felt like I needed EITHER of those I'd just go do a Sortie because getting anything besides those two things is unlikely anyways. I'm not a completionist so there goes that reason to want the new mods, and I don't like the new mods anyways, so there goes reason two! The essence stuff you get from the missions is just for cosmetics and I genuinely don't care enough to go for those since they're just cosmetics, so what do we have left? 

...Credit rewards. 10 minutes minimum for a sortie-sized bundle of credits.

"But Cliff," you might ask me, "what if they actually added something you wanted?" I would not consider the time investment trying to get it worth it, see point one. I just know I'd be choking down ayatans for weeks before I saw the reward I wanted. My absolute worst case scenario is a new Warframe dropping exclusively from Arbitrations. I just would not consider it worth sitting through Arbitrations.

PROBLEM THREE: WANTING LETHALITY vs. THE INNOCENCE OF BUFFING OUR WARFRAMES AND WEAPONS FOR THE MISSIONS

The concepts do not work together. When one of a player's favorite Warframes or weapons is what wins the RNG lottery for their arbitration picks, where's the lethality of the alert? The player is either going to live forever or kill things so fast that they live forever anyways. And that's just solo! Imagine a squad full of metaframes or favorite picks, people who are extremely familiar with what they are using, all buffed up. Where's the lethality? 

(I, personally, really don't care about 'lethality'. Losing missions has never mattered to me, it's just no big deal when you can go on and try again. It'd maybe matter here if I liked any of the rewards, but then it's just a big hassle because now I'm grappling with the RNG again and I've already had QUITE enough of that in the Plains. See point one.)

PROBLEM FOUR: THOSE FUN-SUCKING ENEMY POD-SAVING AWFUL LITTLE DEMONS WE CALL "SHIELD DRONES"

Boring, boring, boring enemy. They fly around, they're a little bit tough, and they make it so you have to completely cut all focus from what you were doing to pop them because otherwise you're stuck with a bunch of invincible deadbeats. Oh, by the way, they get DR from Ancient Healers. 🙃

Edited October 22, 2018 by Cliff_Racer

[JenarisLone]

.The actual forum post is here deleted this one for some reason 

 

 

Edited October 23, 2018 by Jenarickman

[JenarisLone]

Now while I enjoy arbitrations they definetely have some problems. Lets see how we can make them better
 

 

Rewards/season system

• Add in more exclusive stuff to the drop table. Possibly a season system like how sorties used to be where in this season you can obtain these things in the reward pool.  The drop table could have these things in this season in the reward pool. Like adaptation is in the reward pool then the season changes and makes it to where these items drop in the reward pool.
• Add in another currency you can obtain from the rotations. Lets call it Lamina. It can be used to purchase evergreen rewards from the vendor on a separate tab (Examples are kuva, potatoes, forma, stuff like that). Maybe obtain 250 per rotation and adjust prices accordingly.
• Make a separate vendor that sells the old cosmetics and old rewards from previous seasons for vitus essence. (Changes with each season) 
• Endo is a fine reward but remove ayatans to open the reward pool more towards other things 

League system

• Every time you complete an arbitration you will be awarded points
• Points earned will be based on things such as kills, kills on eximus units, how many rotations you stayed in for and stuff like that
• Each league will have their own leaderboard with rewards for top players or people who participated which will reset every arbitration season. As you progress in leagues the leaderboard rewards will be better
• People in the top 20% for that league will be promoted to the next league and people below 80% get demoted
• You need to have a minimum amount of points in order to even be on the leaderboard
• People between 80% and 20% will stay in the current league they are in. 
• Rewards Can include, credits, rivens, boosters, endo, kuva, forma, and relics
• Rewards will be given to people who are 80% - 70%,69% - 60% , 59% - 50%, 49% - 40%, 39% - 30%, 29% - 20%, 19% - 11%. Rewards scale and new ones are obtainable  depending on where you are at.
• 10%-1% have the oppurtunity to get rewarded with platinum. 
• Top 5 will be put separately from the 10% - 1% 

Other Things

• Start the enemy scaling at level 80-100. I know maybe you lowered it because of the broken enemy scaling but we want hard.
• Make it to where you need to be mastery rank 10 and you have completed all nodes to unlock them. 
• Put the rate you get rewards back to what they normally are. Wave 5, Every 2 squads for defection, Every round of interception, Every 5 mins of survival. It would give more of an incentive to stay in the mission.
• Every mission besides defense increase the amount of enemies that spawn. Defense is fine for the most part.
• The 300% bonuses should be limited to the things you have in your inventory and they have to be rank 30.

I know things like the league system and arbitration seasons may be too ambitious but hey its a way too make it better. These were how I think the arbitrations could be improved.

Edited October 23, 2018 by Jenarickman

[JenarisLone]

Sorry deleted this post

 

[krc473]

30 minutes ago, Jenarickman said:

People in the top 20% for that league will be promoted to the next league and people below get demoted

So, your suggestion is that 80% of people will get demoted from each league? Honestly, this is one of the most terrible ideas I have come across. The vast majority of people are going to get demoted every season change. Why should anyone even bother to try and compete?

• Your proposed rewards for the demoted people are just terrible. Why should people spend hours and hours to get demoted and be awarded with credits? I mean, maybe you want to give people 50 million credits for being demoted. But if people can farm credits with less effort, why should they bother with your system? Boosters are fairly frequently given as login rewards, so just another useless "prize".

 

Your proposed system would make me want to play Arbitration missions even less. Yes, they have some problems now. But your system is just full of detrimental changes. 

• Have you even considered why sorties do not have seasons any more? DE has reasons for changing that, why would they want to do it again for another mode?

[trndr]

42 minutes ago, Jenarickman said:

Make a separate vendor that sells the old cosmetics and old rewards for vitus essence. (Changes with each season) 

If by old cosmetics you mean the event badges, GTFO. Badges are to show you participated in an event, if you didn't participate, no badge.

Everything else, you can already get them.

50 minutes ago, Jenarickman said:

The 300% bonuses should be limited to the things you have in your inventory and they have to be rank 30.

The point of the 300% bonus is to get us to use different stuff.

If it was just the stuff in inventory, I would feel forced to sell about 120 weapons so I always got the bonus on the good weapons I have good rivens for.

[JenarisLone]

10 minutes ago, trndr said:

If by old cosmetics you mean the event badges, GTFO. Badges are to show you participated in an event, if you didn't participate, no badge.

Nbadge.No I did not mean badges. I meant things only available to buy from the vendor. Not old old rewards from previous events like the operations. The possibility of cosmetics that could be added to the vendor can be many things

Edited October 23, 2018 by Jenarickman

[JenarisLone]

27 minutes ago, krc473 said:

So, your suggestion is that 80% of people will get demoted from each league? Honestly, this is one of the most terrible ideas I have come across. The vast majority of people are going to get demoted every season change. Why should anyone even bother to try and compete?

 

So i made a better suggestion now which is to make it to where people between 80% and 20% in the leaderboard will stay in the league they are currently in

Edited October 23, 2018 by Jenarickman

[krc473]

3 minutes ago, Jenarickman said:

So i made a better suggestion now which is to make it to where people between 80% and 20% in the leaderboard will stay in the league they are currently in

That is a better suggestion. The rewards are still completely pointless and terrible. But it’s better than penalising 80% of participants.

7 minutes ago, Jenarickman said:

I meant things only available to buy from the vendor

Examples of what your are talking about?

 

I still cannot support your idea. It is still primarily detrimental.

[JenarisLone]

28 minutes ago, krc473 said:

That is a better suggestion. The rewards are still completely pointless and terrible. But it’s better than penalising 80% of participants.

Examples of what your are talking about?

 

I still cannot support your idea. It is still primarily detrimental.

Well can you help me. Maybe make this a fun competitive element to the game. Do you think a league system could work? 

Edited October 23, 2018 by Jenarickman

[Abysspurnyan]

6 hours ago, trndr said:

If by old cosmetics you mean the event badges, GTFO. Badges are to show you participated in an event, if you didn't participate, no badge.

I've never done those events but I'd have to agree with that, I am however somewhat disappointed with the vitus emblem.
The emblem is nice with all em particles, but I'd certainly want to see sekharas in the same fashion as the old ones from those events.
Not just some flat logo every time. Although I guess that vitus emblem is pretty easy to get...

[Abysspurnyan]

21 hours ago, GkarB5 said:

You may wish to try equipping the buffed weapon mentioned in the Arbitration's description.

I've been equipping the buffed weapon during several Arbitrations & found that killing those Arbitration drones with that particular weapon isn't very difficult (as long as you have the right mods equipped).  

Also, I found that equipping the Helios (Prime) sentinel with the Detect Vulnerability mod really helps - especially if you've taken the time to complete the Codex entry for most of the enemy factions:  http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Detect_Vulnerability

While these flat damage multipliers are nice, I don't think it should be necessary to use them. I mainly use the warframes and weapons if I can. I certainly won't make weapons (again) just for arbitrations. Ancients themselves don't buff each other and it seems only logical that a drone should get the same treatment considering its buff is flat invulnerability to damage and abilities. It'd just be fair for those drones not to receive a healer's buff. In small groups it doesn't make any difference, but if a few dozen of enemies get stuck in a hallway (as usual), it's just plain suicide.

They nerf us, if we get overpowered, why not our enemies as well? 🤷‍♂️

Unless helios will specifically target the drones with everything being invulnerable, it'd seem rather ineffective while also sacrificing a sentinel slot for nothing.

Edited October 23, 2018 by Abysspurnyan

[Peter]

Still waiting for full lvl 30 arsenal requiriment.

[operative-verona]

You should probably know that people intentionally fail Void defense arbitrations by activating lasers on the last wave to kill everyone. Just happened to me again.
Solutions:
1) Remove laser consoles from this tile in Arbitrations
2) Make a report player function for "Intentionally failing mission"

 

[Urlan]

2 hours ago, Amebot said:

You should probably know that people intentionally fail Void defense arbitrations by activating lasers on the last wave to kill everyone. Just happened to me again.
Solutions:
1) Remove laser consoles from this tile in Arbitrations
2) Make a report player function for "Intentionally failing mission"

 

That kind of thing used to happen back in the old Void Key defenses sadly. Not a fun thing to happen, but back then you could select your team to come with you and I feel that is the best idea if experiencing this with randoms, at least until it loses some of the draw for these players. I would love if the defenses in the Void defense were made to not be that Void laser but instead turrets that leveled with the enemies instead and couldn't target allies without effort - like intentional radiation status - it would cut down on such unsportsmanlike behavior.

[Smarni]

I genuinely hate playing arbitations.I get excited when I see a great bonus on a frame just so I can get let down every single time. I like the idea of a high level game mode with a challenge in hope of great rewards (there could be more of them tho) but the drones giving enemies FULL invincibility combined with a terrible spawn rate ruins it. These drones are hard to hit with many weapons in general but as soon as an invincible heavy gunner stands in front of them that's game over. We don't die we're too strong for that. especially with bonuses on certain frames. We can't slay enemies either so we just stand there in a stalemate. Survivals are just not enjoyable at all. I like killing stuff. make me work for it. that's good. but I NEED enemies to be killed so I can stay in the mission and stay interested. When I charge in a huge group of enemies (all the 5 that is) with my rhino I don't want to be ignored. I have a huge hammer to bash heads in with. I don't want to chase a tiny little pain in the stars. I want to feel like the god my frame is. Give me the beefiest mini-bosses, hoards of high damage dealing enemies that I can rip trough. Make them hard to kill not annoying to find. These drones present the same problem Ash had with his blade storm. It breaks the flow of the game. We need carnage. We have the means to kill extremely high level enemies. Bring them on. And lots of them. Thank you.

[HavokDeathwalker]

One small issue I have at the moment, there's a LOT of particle effects and vibrancy going into this. It's hard for me to spend more than 30 minutes in these without my eyes starting to burn. Maybe tone down the vibrancy on the aura color and the explosion particles? I know I could adjust these myself but, I don't like the thought of having to adjust prior to a run and remembering to fix them in post. 

[Lysithea.Nya]

Arbitrations: I am disappointed.

While I generally like the idea of it, there are a LOT of things that could be done better.

First of all, reward. Alright, you can get either pure endo, sculptures or some mod. Only one mod is somewhat valuable on market, so 3,5% you get valuable reward or 96,5% you get endo or some junk mod. For double duration of normal mission and increased difficulty. I'm not against endo, especially there is quite good amount of it. But really, rewards could be a little bit more various. Why not add radiant relics for example, like in sanctuary? Why not kuva, since that is something bothersome to gather, good amounts of credits to make it alternative for index which everyone is tired of but it remains only one possibility to get credits? Reward pool could include some rare resources like nitain extract, forma (yes, why not?), orokin reactor/catalyst BP and so on as a reward. For example, having common reward (endo/kuva/credits/relics/etc) randomly assigned to each alert + consistent pool of rare rewards would make this mode much, much more desired to run. Then again, vitus essence purchase list... couple mods and some cosmetics and that's all? really?

Proceeding to the next. Defense still has worst time/reward ratio, even after update. 

Drones are getting quite annoying as well, it would be better if area would have random debuff like sortie has. Maybe different debuffs from sortie.

Arbitration mode is nearly dead for me after just couple runs (it's simply not rewarding enough for me to run compared to, for example, relics survival missions). And I can't see it living without consistently being updated and supported, starting from reworking reward pool. 

[zteeldragon]

Well it is very sad to see that this mission will die out one everyone got that certain mod.

I want to share a gimp of endgame I experienced. DE used to experiment with a special alert reward 3 built forma if I remember correctly. 20 waves Io defence tile-set start at level 200 spawn with a load of arctic nullifier and a bunch of burza and hyena every 5 waves. I got the most fun I've ever experience in this game. So broken difficult and so challenging, too bad DE listen to those whining casual player who want those reward badly but fail the mission and never give us that type of mission again. My point is endgame mission should not be designed for everyone. That why it's called endgame. Arbitrations is such a bad attempt for that, too easy, boring, long and tedious, also, filled with leeches and reward table is a joke.

[Urlan]

30 minutes ago, zteeldragon said:

Well it is very sad to see that this mission will die out one everyone got that certain mod.

I want to share a gimp of endgame I experienced. DE used to experiment with a special alert reward 3 built forma if I remember correctly. 20 waves Io defence tile-set start at level 200 spawn with a load of arctic nullifier and a bunch of burza and hyena every 5 waves. I got the most fun I've ever experience in this game. So broken difficult and so challenging, too bad DE listen to those whining casual player who want those reward badly but fail the mission and never give us that type of mission again. My point is endgame mission should not be designed for everyone. That why it's called endgame. Arbitrations is such a bad attempt for that, too easy, boring, long and tedious, also, filled with leeches and reward table is a joke.

I can feel you on the worry that the Arbitration alerts need better incentives. I believe there are a few threads on the subject where some claimed though that players like themselves would enjoy the mode for being challenging alone instead of needing rewards. Personally, I believe a mode must have rewards in line with their annoyance factor and improve over credit caches or too small endo or mod rewards. This shows in modes like Defection for instance, where the rewards after Harrow's system don't really justify the mission reward structure.

[DrBorris]

Idea, instead of...

On 2018-10-24 at 10:34 AM, [DE]Megan said:

Reduced Arbitration Defense Wave length to balance mission time played in comparison to Arbitration Survival missions. 

 

What about increasing the wave length but then reducing the amount of waves to 5? Fewer intense waves would feel a lot better than a lot of quick waves.

Also, Interception, Excavation and Salvage are all considerably faster than even Survival. Given that, maybe even reducing Survival down to 7.5 min might be an idea, given that Excavation is sitting at 3-6 min, Salvage is at 5 min, and Interception is at about 6 min.

[Cyxe]

@DE sorry I don't have the time to go through 19 pages of posts so apologies in advance for reposting. 

I'm aware that the ideal situation is to form a coordinated team with optimal team composition. However, it can also be fun sometimes to meet new people because, well, you just never know who you meet in public games.

Join a random squad.  Infested Survival.  Cool.

Someone decides to begin the mission before we have 4. We locked in with only 3 people. Uncool.

We start off on the same screen, things are going smoothly. Cool.

Then people start to get greedy (like they do) and wander off on their own. Uncool.

I decide to use diplomacy over complaining and we manage to regroup. Cool.

Inevitably, people wander off again (ADHD I don't know). Uncool.

Host dies after repeated, polite requests to regroup. He leaves. Uncool.

Host migration, my 1500 bonus armor from Atlas gravel falls of to 0. Uncool.

I die shortly after. Very, very uncool.

Edited October 26, 2018 by Cyxe

[Cyxe]

On 2018-10-23 at 2:19 PM, Amebot said:

You should probably know that people intentionally fail Void defense arbitrations by activating lasers on the last wave to kill everyone. Just happened to me again.
Solutions:
1) Remove laser consoles from this tile in Arbitrations
2) Make a report player function for "Intentionally failing mission"

 

Or just remove the tileset from the rotation entirely.

[ManBearPig89]

The Vitus illimina doesn't appear and wont let me place it on my ship. Anyone else ran into this bug?

 

[Askaris]

Problems:

The best way I can summarise is that arbitrations aren't really challenging, they're just tedious.

We fight the same old standard enemies for the given tileset; if one's using appropriately modded equipment, there's no real difference between fighting a level 1 charger and a level 70 one. Even with the arbitration drones providing support, enemies aren't challenging; at no point do I feel like I'm fighting harder than I normally would in a mission. Frankly, most the time I feel relaxed, verging on bored. Additionally, the combination of uninteresting common drops with a long reward cycle makes it difficult to remain motivated to continue playing. It's not of question of whether I can keep myself alive past rotation C (as that is fairly easy), but of whether I can force myself to keep going.

Suggestions:

There are a few odd missions with unusual enemy compositions, like the razorback having hyena and bursa spawns as standard, or the old all manic tactical alert. If possible, I'd suggest using unusual spawnlists like these to make arbitrations fresher and more challenging, while also shortening the reward cycle to the standard 5 minutes/5 waves. In this way the experience will challenge the players skill with an intense fight, rather than their patience with a lengthy one; in particular, I'd like to see a Kuva Fortress spawnlist with common Kuva Guardian appearances. Periodic appearances by bosses might also be interesting, if they're not too tied to their arenas; if midway through a Grineer survival mission Lech Kril kicked in the door it'd certainly be a change of pace.

Edited October 27, 2018 by Askaris