Saryn changes make me go Vay Hek

[MechaKnight]

29 minutes ago, Xydeth said:

i disagree since overextended comes at a cost. if DE just added more difficult content then the range wouldnt be an issue. the problem is that players have gotten more and more tools and become stronger and stronger, which is fine but the content has to grow accordingly imo.

I'll make a thread about it later in the month, but no. About 2 dozen warframe nerfs across the history of the game happened to frame radial abilities since that mod was released. This is Saryn's 4th nerf across 3 very different ability forms. The developers aren't able to plan ahead of us nearly tripling stock ability ranges, so they're not planning on us hitting enemies so far through walls. When Vivergate pushed players to expose the extent of the radial meta, the devs pushed line-of-sight and cooldowns much to the dismay of the playbase.

Players eventually request warframe nerfs and the developers are ready to deliver, up until the players change to a new meta and devs nerf that too instead of noticing the common cause at the core. From Nova Molecular Prime nukes to Absorb chain nukes to Radial Javelin 58.75 meter nukes to Ash Bladestorm 99% damage through sorties, negative duration Miasma, Ember auto-nuking, Equinox blasting and more, Overextended is the cause of many previous and future warframe nerfs.

Meanwhile if the mod was reworked from 90% range -60% strength to 50% range -20% strength and we add Exhausted Prowess for +40% efficiency -45% strength, people would still enjoy the game and Overextended would still be great, but we wouldn't have so many frame nerfs.

Edited October 12, 2018 by MechaKnight

[Marekthejester]

Il y a 6 heures, Acerbus a dit :

 

Normal Miasma does half damage, spored Miasma now works as always intended, a.k.a. "Oopsie, turns out we low-key *ed over Saryn players for half a year, let's nerf 'em to make it up to them." ?

This is unacceptable.

It's time to do a little bit of mathematic dear OP. What happen when you divide by 2 than multiply by 4 ?

Révélation

Miasma does twice it's old damage on spored ennemies. And it's not like spore is hard to spread. To me it sound more like a buff.

 

[Acerbus]

1 minute ago, Marekthejester said:

It's time to do a little bit of mathematic dear OP. What happen when you divide by 2 than multiply by 4 ?

  Hide contents

Miasma does twice it's old damage on spored ennemies. And it's not like spore is hard to spread. To me it sound more like a buff.

 

Might wanna read again. In case you're too lazy, here it is Barney style: Base damage is halved. Unspored Miasma does half damage. Spored Miasma does, as was always intended,  double damage. Exactly as I said and you didn't comprehend.

The point stands.

[Xolgys]

vor 7 Minuten schrieb MechaKnight:

[...]

well, there are pros and cons so even if we discussed each of our opinions in the end DE decides. balance is always an "issue" even with the mods as u described. it would change the overall norm and perception of whats balanced so again changes would be neccessary i guess. i can see ur point tho, although i dont really agree with this suggested/example "solution".

[Acerbus]

1 minute ago, Xydeth said:

well, there are pros and cons so even if we discussed each of our opinions in the end DE decides. balance is always an "issue" even with the mods as u described. it would change the overall norm and perception of whats balanced so again changes would be neccessary i guess. i can see ur point tho, although i dont really agree with this suggested/example "solution".

This isn't about balance, this is about a missing mechanic being added carrying an extra price tag and sold as a buff while being a nerf. We the players aren't in charge of setting the numbers, but we're not dumb.

[Xolgys]

vor 1 Minute schrieb Acerbus:

Might wanna read again. In case you're too lazy, here it is Barney style: Base damage is halved. Unspored Miasma does half damage. Spored Miasma does, as was always intended,  double damage. Exactly as I said and you didn't comprehend.

The point stands.

 

vor 3 Minuten schrieb Acerbus:

This isn't about balance, this is about a missing mechanic being added carrying an extra price tag and sold as a buff while being a nerf. We the players aren't in charge of setting the numbers, but we're not dumb.

miasma now deals 50% of the base dmg compared to before but the multiplier on spored enemies now is 4x instead of 2x before the mainline so in the end u deal double damage compared to before because it was bugged and didnt apply the 2x. it basically deals the dmg that was originally intended with the only difference being the damage without spores got halved making the synergy more important. in the end its a buff since we have de facto 2x more damage now but only due to the bug. if we take the intended state as a comparison its just a fix and synergy swap so to say, the small, unimportant nerf to spore aside. since miasma on its own is bad now even more so than before its actually good since that means less plain 4-slamming since players actually need to use spore too. the logic is as i already wrote here 2 times: saryn already dealt tons of damage before and was super fine even with the bug so this is also a reaction to her being very strong. considering the amount of complaints in some threads this small nerf to spore is actually fine and legit.

 

vor 10 Minuten schrieb Acerbus:

[...] but we're not dumb.

talk about working urself up over nothing...if u think they believe players are then thats ur imagination imo. if u want to imagine something and believe that its true, then u will do so. i dont see any proof that DE thinks this way so i would suggest to calm down~

[Runkel79]

Tried her in ESO today, i didn't notice any difference, maybe because i was already always spreading Saryns spores before using her 4 before the Update arrived.

It was a 3 Man group, Me, a EV Trinity, a Inaros and my Saryn still MURDERED everything, we managed to reach Round 12 without any problems and only ran out of Efficiency because of the bad Map layout.)

Edited October 12, 2018 by Runkel79

[Duality52]

So just like the Shrine of Eidolon, you feel that Saryn's "changes" should overshadow what today's mainline update brought?

[Xolgys]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb Runkel79:

Tried her in ESO today, i didn't notice any difference, maybe because i was already always spreading Saryns spores before using her 4 before the Update arrived.

It was a 3 Man group, Me, a EV Trinity, a Inaros and my Saryn still MURDERED everything, we managed to reach Round 13 without any problems and only ran out of Efficiency because of the bad Map layout.)

u dont feel any difference if u always played her with her synergies in mind. i am a saryn "main" since i started warframe back in the days of her 1st kit-version so im no stranger to saryn. i didnt feel any difference either.

[MechaKnight]

1 hour ago, Xydeth said:

well, there are pros and cons so even if we discussed each of our opinions in the end DE decides. balance is always an "issue" even with the mods as u described. it would change the overall norm and perception of whats balanced so again changes would be neccessary i guess. i can see ur point tho, although i dont really agree with this suggested/example "solution".

The current solution is repeat frame nerfs. When one range mod contributes as much range as the other 3 combined, the developers don't know what else to do but nerf frame radial abilities when players use 3 or 4 of these mods and Overextended is one of them.

Newer enemies resist abilities by either nullifying like the Nullifier, Comba, Scrambus, or some Bursa variants; or they resist damage from abilities by resisting damage through armor damage reduction or other damage reduction like Bursa, Juggernaut, or Nox. Of course sapping our energy through eximi and magnetic procs is always a common solution to radial abilities, as is putting our abilities on cooldown like in Sanctuary Onslaught. Sentients are probably going to disable our abilities or make them work against us somehow.

Ultimately the major concern is the action of nerfing frame radials because of the common use of gaining such range through Overextended, which usually does nothing to resolve the original problem except make the warframe more reliant on said mod. A couple dozen times of seeing similar nerfs to similar abilities with similar enough mod builds and you realize Overextended is this game's nerf magnet.

Based on the current developer solution flow, the solution is either.

1) Nerf that frame ability.
2) Rework the warframe in a way that somehow reduces emphasis on that ability.
3) Add a cooldown timer.
4) put line-of-sight so you can only hit enemies with abilities when you're in visual sight of them.
5) Release very powerful enemies that somehow resist abilities through nullification or resisting damage.

So why don't we make it easier to trace range while keeping the mods balanced and effective? It's a good new option that would reduce warframe nerfs and allow the community to understand the balance of our stats.

Edited October 13, 2018 by MechaKnight

[Pizzarugi]

9 hours ago, Xydeth said:

i disagree since overextended comes at a cost. if DE just added more difficult content then the range wouldnt be an issue. the problem is that players have gotten more and more tools and become stronger and stronger, which is fine but the content has to grow accordingly imo.

It's less that, and more DE hellbent on keeping everything in the star chart. The highest difficulty this game gets to is level 100, but the content is restricted hourly (kuva) or daily (sortie). The power players have access to greatly exceeds the challenge the game offers.

Either new challenging content needs to be introduced, or players' access to power needs to be reduced.

[myuushii]

--

Edited October 19, 2018 by myuushii

[Xarteros]

They should just turn Spores back the way they were, make Miasma a duration-based corrosive cloud that pops spores as they go through it, make Molt give us a rapidly-decaying damage reduction instead of haphazard speed boost, and replace the blocking bonus of Toxic Lash with something considerably less lame.

Saryn's spores were so much more fun to spread back in the good old days, and her changes to Miasma still don't make it fun OR sensible. It's a cloud, not a blast wave.

[Xolgys]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Pizzarugi:

It's less that, and more DE hellbent on keeping everything in the star chart. The highest difficulty this game gets to is level 100, but the content is restricted hourly (kuva) or daily (sortie). The power players have access to greatly exceeds the challenge the game offers.

Either new challenging content needs to be introduced, or players' access to power needs to be reduced.

my points exactly and im on the "more difficult content"- sider rather than limiting player power in a game about players being super powerful tenno/space ninjas.

[MechaKnight]

3 hours ago, Xydeth said:

my points exactly and im on the "more difficult content"- sider rather than limiting player power in a game about players being super powerful tenno/space ninjas.

A suggestion that sounds good is to create more challenging and fun content, but there are some outlier player options that are so strong they repeatedly remove excessive amounts of challenge from all new content, even when challenge is the sole goal of the added content. The developers have been adding difficulty because years ago the top of the solar system was level 30, now it is level 45 with a few instances starting at level 60 and sorties going past level 100. We trivialize it all, but out of any stat that helps trivialize content and bring warframe nerfs, range is the single one. The community doesn't mind if it takes as many hits to down a level 100 enemy as it takes to down a level 1 enemy, or if we can cast abilities more often or if they last longer. The community does find an issue with preventing enemies from getting close enough to be visible since they're dead or stunlocked eternally near their spawn doors.

My solution to change Overextended's stats from +90% range -60% strength to +50% range -20% strength is balanced, and the mod is as good or better than before. Add Exhausted Prowess for +40% efficiency and -45% strength and you have a balanced efficiency option that enables negative strength builds.

What is the issue within this balance? If you consider Overextended balanced now with its heavy detriment, Stretch would be the superior mod since it has no penalty for its range increment of 45%, while Overextended is penalized twice for both of its 45% increments via 30% strength loss increments. So if instead it was +50% range at the cost of -20% strength, the range is only partially penalized instead of being completely penalized, the mod is still positive by 30 stat points, you can still stack it with the other 3 range mods, and the exact amount of range lost becomes strength, while players gain a strong efficiency option that uses strength.

If you want to kill more enemies in a larger range, ask yourself why first. To a new player is may be briefly fun but to a veteran you already have all the loot you need thanks to Warframe's generous crafting requirements and plentiful resources. A troubling trend is new recipes being released cost an insane amount of materials such as Hema, Sibear, and Vauban Prime, which is yet another effect that was caused by developers understanding the extent of our radial spam meta strategies. Melee 3.0 is completely designed around the idea to remove easily executed radial damage spam. New warframes like Revenant can't scale their damage-dealing abilities with range, and warframes that scale with range are always likely to get a nerf if they deal damage or stun and if players tend to equip Overextended on it.

It's not bad to consider balancing this mod, it's this game's nerf magnet and gives as much range as the other 3 range mods combined via a penalty no nuker cares about since they can compensate it easily. The game's 2nd best range mod only gives 1/2 as much range, the game's 3rd best range mod only gives 1/3 as much range, and the 4th best range mod only gives 1/6 as much range. If we were talking about these mods in terms of weapons we'd clearly be saying a rebalance is required. The community seems to agree every time a warframe ability nerf is requested on the forums and the developers grant it. 

Consider discussing with the developers about how they're pushing back against the common use of radial abilities. Clearly the resource costs are a product of countering our efforts since the day they learned just how often we spam radials. Cooldown timers and line-of-sight development was the solution. How about we first suggest to make Overextended more uniform, then consider requesting buffs to abilities and reductions in crafting costs.

Edited October 13, 2018 by MechaKnight

[(PSN)cleefsentence]

A final ability who needs another to reach his max potential?

Seems legit.

Why not rework Mesa too DE, i have a very cool idea:

- peacemaker damage reduced by 50%

- x2/x4 damage to disharmed enemies (sinergy with shooting gallery, woooooow!)

Edited October 13, 2018 by (PS4)cleefsentence

[Guest]

24 minutes ago, (PS4)cleefsentence said:

A final ability who needs another to reach his max potential?

If you're using Miasma for raw damage, you're doing it wrong. It's not meant to be a nuke. Even before this patch, spamming Miasma without using Spores was viable only on very low lvl missions.

[(PSN)cleefsentence]

12 minutes ago, Pr1A said:

If you're using Miasma for raw damage, you're doing it wrong. It's not meant to be a nuke. Even before this patch, spamming Miasma without using Spores was viable only on very low lvl missions.

Or maybe you don't know how to build a miasma build properly. I can use miasma only for 30 min in a kuva surv without even bother to use spores and extract with 800+ kills.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, (PS4)cleefsentence said:

Or maybe you don't know how to build a miasma build properly. I can use miasma only for 30 min in a kuva surv without even bother to use spores and extract with 800+ kills.

In that case, I can't say I'm unhappy about them nerfing brainless 4 spam.

[(PSN)cleefsentence]

1 minute ago, Pr1A said:

In that case, I can't say I'm unhappy about them nerfing brainless 4 spam.

Just using what Pablo give to us bro. That guy knows that an ult has to be powerful without use anything else, DE just doesn't.

[GeoffFromAccounting]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)cleefsentence said:

Just using what Pablo give to us bro. That guy knows that an ult has to be powerful without use anything else, DE just doesn't.

Did you not read the part where the current behaviour is what was originally intended?

On 2018-10-13 at 12:26 AM, [DE]Megan said:

We recently made the surprising discovery that Miasma’s damage multiplier for targets affected by Spores never actually worked. It has been fixed and will now work as we’ve intended it to originally.

Not to mention it's not like Saryn's kit is built around spores or anything. Not like her kit is designed to spread them, with abilities designed to buff your ability to do so, and then increasing your effectivness on targets affected by spores. That doesn't sound like Saryn at all...

Edited October 13, 2018 by GeoffFromAccounting

[(PSN)cleefsentence]

2 minutes ago, GeoffFromAccounting said:

Did you not read the part where the current behaviour is what was originally intended?

Not to mention it's not like Saryn's kit is built around spores or anything. Not like her kit is designed to spread them, with abilities designed to buff your ability to do so, and then increasing your effectivness on targets affected by spores. That doesn't sound like Saryn at all...

The 50% less damage is a balancing idea by DE

Quote

By increasing the damage multiplier we have reduced the following to compensate for the change:

 

[GeoffFromAccounting]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)cleefsentence said:

The 50% less damage is a balancing idea by DE

 

... you realise Pablo works for DE right? As in [DE]Pablo? Pablo isn't some random guy they get in off the street, they work for DE.

On 2018-10-13 at 12:26 AM, [DE]Megan said:

We recently made the surprising discovery that Miasma’s damage multiplier for targets affected by Spores never actually worked. It has been fixed and will now work as we’ve intended it to originally.

It doesn't say "Pablo intended" it says "we've intended". They are not seperate entities.

 

Edited October 13, 2018 by GeoffFromAccounting

[(PSN)cleefsentence]

11 minutes ago, GeoffFromAccounting said:

... you realise Pablo works for DE right? As in [DE]Pablo? Pablo isn't some random guy they get in off the street, they work for DE.

It doesn't say "Pablo intended" it says "we've intended". They are not seperate entities.

 

They released Saryn Rework and Nezha rework as Pablo's stuff, not me. So i can say that he worked on them and others polished what needed to be polished, just that.

You just need to read. The original miasma has the old damage and a damage x2 when enemies got spores on them. That's how pablo reworked Saryn.

Quote

We recently made the surprising discovery that Miasma’s damage multiplier for targets affected by Spores never actually worked. It has been fixed and will now work as we’ve intended it to originally. That said, seeing as it has been absent until now, we have increased the damage multiplier from 2x to 4x to encourage even more synergy between the two abilities. 

No mentions about an unintended base damage of miasma, just a lack of x2 of his damage on spored enemies.

This:

Quote

 

By increasing the damage multiplier we have reduced the following to compensate for the change:

Miasma base Damage has been halved.

Spores scaling damage per second cap has been reduced from 10 to 7.

 

it's not part of the original rework.

Edited October 13, 2018 by (PS4)cleefsentence

[GeoffFromAccounting]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)cleefsentence said:

They released Saryn Rework and Nezha rework as Pablo's stuff, not me. So i can say that he worked on them and others polished what needed to be polished, just that.

You just need to read. The original miasma has the old damage and a damage x2 when enemies got spores on them. That's how pablo reworked Saryn.

No mentions about an unintended base damage of miasma, just a lack of x2 of his damage on spored enemies.

This:

it's not part of the original rework.

It's almost like just fixing the bug was too powerful, and in order to stop it from overshadowing everything else they had to do other changes to keep it in line roughly with where it was before. But that doesn't make sense, obviously the original intent is just to press 4 over and over and be showered with loot. Definitely wasn't to reinforce the focus that Saryn has on Spores since her original rework that you seem to praise, and to make sure she doesn't turn into a one trick pony like, say, Mag's old Shield Polarise and Corpus enemies.

Saryn is still ridiculously powerful even with these changes, it's not like she's suddenly been shifted down to Wukong tier of usefulness, all it means is that you actually have to use Spores as intended.

Edited October 13, 2018 by GeoffFromAccounting