Saryn changes make me go Vay Hek

[(PSN)cleefsentence]

31 minutes ago, GeoffFromAccounting said:

It's almost like just fixing the bug was too powerful, and in order to stop it from overshadowing everything else they had to do other changes to keep it in line roughly with where it was before. But that doesn't make sense, obviously the original intent is just to press 4 over and over and be showered with loot. Definitely wasn't to reinforce the focus that Saryn has on Spores since her original rework that you seem to praise, and to make sure she doesn't turn into a one trick pony like, say, Mag's old Shield Polarise and Corpus enemies.

Saryn is still ridiculously powerful even with these changes, it's not like she's suddenly been shifted down to Wukong tier of usefulness, all it means is that you actually have to use Spores as intended.

No overshadowing, miasma before the chimera update was useful only on certain situations (farm relics, speed up the usual x waves of hydron to help a friend to max his stuff fast and for me farm kuva easily without the needs to use spores until 30m). Now miasma - if used alone - is less powerful and it's an ult, not a 1st ability.

I like the Saryn pre-chimera because it was possible to build for duration/range and make a spores build (for high level content or ESO) or strenght/range for a miasma build (normal content where spores are overkill so no really needed). Saryn is still op? Yes but we have less variations now, that's sure.

Quote

it means is that you actually have to use Spores as intended.

No, it means that now i can't use miasma - an ult - to kill a vl 30/40 lancer without first use spores.

Edited October 13, 2018 by (PS4)cleefsentence

[Lucaine]

21 minutes ago, (PS4)cleefsentence said:

No, it means that now i can't use miasma - an ult - to kill a vl 30/40 lancer without first use spores.

Just because an ability is on button 4 does not mean it should always be counted as an "ult". Take Vauban for example. I wouldn't call Vortex an "ult", just a different form of crowd control when compared to his other moves.

Saryn's kit is now made to synergize with itself properly. The only significant interaction 1 and 4 had previously was the fact you could mass Viral proc with Miasma.

Edited October 13, 2018 by Lucaine

[MechaKnight]

I feel like the Miasma nerf is yet another expression of Overextended's pervasiveness in warframe radial ability modding. You have to perform work to get Spores to spread, and it is aided by range mods, Overextended being one of them. Without Overextended you'll only affect less than 10 enemies most of the time, but with Overextended you'll easily reach at least 30 enemies. Regarding Miasma, you used to be able to use it regardless of whether or not Spores was a factor, thus leading to the same usual broken meta like Saryn 2.0 Miasma spam, or Excalibur 2.0 Radial Javelin spam. So they reduced Miasma's damage and made sure you had to spread Spores to deal decent damage with Miasma, since you need to perform work to get Spores to spread.

Like any other warframe radial nerf to address the issue of Overextended's excessive range benefit, the change necessitates Overextended instead of discouraging its use. They tried to prevent players from using Overextended builds and blindly spamming Miasma, but now we still need Overextended to make the Spores spread effectively to use Miasma effectively. This is similar to the Ember World on Fire nerf to discourage use of Overextended auto-nuke builds, but all that did was make the mod even more important when the overheat stage initiated. Thus the Overextended nerf train keeps rolling to hit more warframes in the future.

[(PSN)cleefsentence]

13 minutes ago, Lucaine said:

Just because an ability is on button 4 does not mean it should always be counted as an "ult". Take Vauban for example. I wouldn't call Vortex an "ult", just a different form of crowd control when compared to his other moves.

Saryn's kit is now made to synergize with itself properly. The only significant interaction 1 and 4 had previously was the fact you could mass Viral proc with Miasma.

In fact Vauban needs a rework and he's a cc designed frame, Saryn is a dps frame, so you can't really took Vauban as an example.

Dps frames with good ult are:

Banshee: can kill lvl 30/40 mobs alone

Mesa: can kill anything alone

Frost: can kill lvl 30/40 mobs alone

ecc. ecc.

[Lucaine]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)cleefsentence said:

In fact Vauban needs a rework and he's a cc designed frame, Saryn is a dps frame, so you can't really took Vauban as an example.

Dps frames with good ult are:

Banshee: can kill lvl 30/40 mobs alone

Mesa: can kill anything alone

Frost: can kill lvl 30/40 mobs alone

ecc. ecc.

All the 4th abilities you mentioned are pretty much instakill, instant damage moves. Saryn is a poison themed frame, so damage over time makes perfect sense. Miasma kinda broke this rule in a way. For low-mid starmap, you could easily just use someone else to blow rooms up. Even Ember still works at that point, just like she did back in the day.

As for the post above saying it takes "work" to spread Spores, all it takes is for you to kill one enemy. Most people just lazily spread it with Amprex or Ignis Wraith anyway. I will agree that Overextended does make this a very simple process though.

Edited October 13, 2018 by Lucaine

[(PSN)cleefsentence]

7 minutes ago, Lucaine said:

All the 4th abilities you mentioned are pretty much instakill, instant damage moves. Saryn is a poison themed frame, so damage over time makes perfect sense. Miasma kinda broke this rule in a way. For low-mid starmap, you could easily just use someone else to blow rooms up. Even Ember still works at that point, just like she did back in the day.

As for the post above saying it takes "work" to spread Spores, all it takes is for you to kill one enemy. Most people just lazily spread it with Amprex or Ignis Wraith anyway. I will agree that Overextended does make this a very simple process though.

If you don't see the problem on a ult less effective than a 1st (if used alone) then we see thing too much differently.

Edited October 13, 2018 by (PS4)cleefsentence

[Lucaine]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)cleefsentence said:

If you don't see the problem on a ult less effective than a 1st then we see thing too much differently.

Perhaps. In most cases I would just spread spores through every hallway if I choose to clear lvl 40+ with a Saryn though, which has always done the job more effectively than Miasma spam, since you can stay mobile while spore spreading. The only exception would be Defense missions.

Edited October 13, 2018 by Lucaine

[(PSN)cleefsentence]

9 minutes ago, Lucaine said:

Perhaps. In most cases I would just spread spores through every hallway if I choose to clear lvl 40+ with a Saryn though, which has always done the job more effectively than Miasma spam, since you can stay mobile while spore spreading.

It's the exact opposite for me actually, i really needed spore only on ESO and medium level stuff.

Pretty incredible how a different build can change the effective of an ability. That's something that i really like about Warframe, that's why i really hate when i have only one choice (in this case have to cast spores even on trash mobs).

 

Well i have nothing else to say, enjoy the new Saryn.

Edited October 13, 2018 by (PS4)cleefsentence

[Pizzarugi]

8 hours ago, Xydeth said:

my points exactly and im on the "more difficult content"- sider rather than limiting player power in a game about players being super powerful tenno/space ninjas.

Again, DE seems hellbent on keeping everything on the star chart, with higher levels gated behind time restrictions. The chances of them pushing out content that starts you at level 100+ is unlikely compared to them bringing player power down to make it on par with what they currently have.

[MechaKnight]

46 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

Again, DE seems hellbent on keeping everything on the star chart, with higher levels gated behind time restrictions. The chances of them pushing out content that starts you at level 100+ is unlikely compared to them bringing player power down to make it on par with what they currently have.

It felt so great to read this post, because this is why the developers nerf radial abilities that players frequently apply Overextended on. They usually lower damage or range on damaging abilities, lower the dependability of radial stuns, or similar. For example, thinking back to the initial Nova 1.0 or Mag 1.0 nerfs to make them expand on duration instead of range, reducing synergy on Nyx's Absorb, fixing Miasma damage calcs in Saryn 1.2, reducing Miasma damage in Saryn 3.5, reducing range of World on Fire in Ember 2.5, giving Vauban a strength requirement in Bastille for Vauban 1.5, and more.

We need to understand as a community that both players and developers are the source of nerfs. Every time a player jokes about how easy the gameplay is or asks the developers to nerf an ability, the developers listen. Every time players say veterans are leaving the game because they don't feel stimulated enough, it is taken as a sign that the gameplay has become trivialized. It's the reason why Vivergate was such a toxic period with veterans leaving the game and developers releasing concepts for applying line-of-sight onto abilities. Players will always loot-cave when the feel the incentive, but when the game doesn't feel fun the entire community recognizes it. The primary issue past that is we've resorted to nerfing warframe builds because they use a particular mod instead of reworking that particular mod.

Besides, even if enemies started at level 200 on the solar system we'll spam radials to stunlock them until they die by stacked radial damage, explosive weapon splash damage, or spinning melee damage. Creating more challenge still won't change how we approach challenge, so we should consider addressing the source of discontent within the community that causes frame ability nerfs. Out of all causes, that one mod is among the biggest.

[AtrusStrix]

On 2018-10-12 at 4:21 PM, Duality52 said:

Spores is more or less the most powerful 1st ability in the game, to the point where it rivals any 4's in the game. That right there is not okay.

While it depends on the amount of enemies present in an area, you could just build for range to spread it from 2 to probably 3 tiles away. 

YEAH! How dare Saryn's kit actually be well designed, synergistic and relevant! It should be nerfed to a useless ability that nobody ever uses just like most of the other frames because historical precedence is always right!!!!

Edited October 13, 2018 by AtrusStrix

[plznohurtme]

Just want to preface this with the fact that the only time I play Saryn is ESO (solo/duo) so I won't speak to star chart Miasma spam.

The Miasma buff (with spores out obviously) is very noticeable early on in ESO (have only done solo so far) and it's easier to juice focus gain in the first few zones because of that.  As you get further in ESO and/or hit Grineer the lower spore scaling is very very obvious.  I haven't seen >3k ticks in any zone since the change was made, and previously it would happen fairly often (every time against z6+ Grineer).  I can see where with a full group ensuring mana buffs and clearing enemies around the group the changes wouldn't be a big deal.  So far from my experience I'm getting more focus early, but less later and when there are later zone Grineer it is a noticeable drop in focus gains.  Saryn is still strong, but aside from making things in ESO harder on solo/duo players I'm not sure what DE hoped to accomplish with this change.

TLDR: The changes are crappy for one play mode and noticeably has an effect on solo/duo.

[MechaKnight]

Regarding Elite Sanctuary Onslaught Equinox and Volt can still wipe rooms faster than Saryn. However if wiping rooms is cause for a nerf then the next logical target would be those two frames' radial abilities. I prefer that instead of nerfing frames for using the mod Overextended in their builds, we just rework that one mod instead.

[EinheriarJudith]

33 minutes ago, MechaKnight said:

Regarding Elite Sanctuary Onslaught Equinox and Volt can still wipe rooms faster than Saryn. However if wiping rooms is cause for a nerf then the next logical target would be those two frames' radial abilities. I prefer that instead of nerfing frames for using the mod Overextended in their builds, we just rework that one mod instead.

it absolutely ridiculous how much range equinox gets with overextended, same with volt especially since his electricity proliferates from high density. high range on equinox is actually bad for her kit especially in night form. she needs a rework just on the basis people favor day over night just because of maim.

[SenorClipClop]

On 2018-10-13 at 12:14 AM, Acerbus said:

spored Miasma now works as always intended, a.k.a. "Oopsie, turns out we low-key *ed over Saryn players for half a year

... except when Spore + Miasma was at half the power they intended on update, Saryn was super OP and wiping maps to the point where squadmates had nothing to do and people were asking for nerfs. She clearly demonstrated not needing the multiplier they intended to give her.

On 2018-10-13 at 12:19 AM, xcenic said:

One day I bought a vehicle, but it did not start. the salesman told me that the ignition system had a problem. They repaired it and the car would do what it was supposed to do, turn on.

I don't understand how your analogy applies to Saryn. Are you saying Saryn was unusable when she was updated? Or that she was weak? See earlier in this post.

[Daziri]

On 2018-10-12 at 8:36 PM, GrayArchon said:

 

 

The multiplier against Spores'd enemies was increased from 2x to 4x, as well as being properly implemented in the first place. Base Miasma damage was halved. So, now Miasma does twice as much damage against Spores'd enemies (0.5 x 4 = 2), not "the exact same".

Precisely; the change is a buff. Since it will actually multiply the damage unlike before the change.

The new function of Miasma makes it work like a finisher but ONLY on Spore'd targets.

[Taranus]

20 hours ago, MechaKnight said:

I feel like the Miasma nerf is yet another expression of Overextended's pervasiveness in warframe radial ability modding. You have to perform work to get Spores to spread, and it is aided by range mods, Overextended being one of them. Without Overextended you'll only affect less than 10 enemies most of the time, but with Overextended you'll easily reach at least 30 enemies. Regarding Miasma, you used to be able to use it regardless of whether or not Spores was a factor, thus leading to the same usual broken meta like Saryn 2.0 Miasma spam, or Excalibur 2.0 Radial Javelin spam. So they reduced Miasma's damage and made sure you had to spread Spores to deal decent damage with Miasma, since you need to perform work to get Spores to spread.

Like any other warframe radial nerf to address the issue of Overextended's excessive range benefit, the change necessitates Overextended instead of discouraging its use. They tried to prevent players from using Overextended builds and blindly spamming Miasma, but now we still need Overextended to make the Spores spread effectively to use Miasma effectively. This is similar to the Ember World on Fire nerf to discourage use of Overextended auto-nuke builds, but all that did was make the mod even more important when the overheat stage initiated. Thus the Overextended nerf train keeps rolling to hit more warframes in the future.

This is a good point. Maybe DE should just nerf Overextended.

Edited October 14, 2018 by Taranus

[MechaKnight]

9 hours ago, Taranus said:

This is a good point. Maybe DE should just nerf Overextended.

Effectively yes, but the range issue it presents could be done even without a nerf, in what could be considered a balance or buff.

Overextended gives +90% range at a penalty of -60% strength, but +50% range at -20% strength gives the same amount of stat points while reducing the penalty even more than reducing the bonus and converts range to strength at a 1:1 ratio both within the mod and across stacked mods. Since players like having negative strength builds for other gameplay strategies, adding a mod called "Exhaused Prowess" for +40% efficiency for -45% strength is balanced. Alternatively, it could be called "Exhausted Endurance" to offer +60% duration for -40% strength.

Thus the same negative strength possibilities are enabled, Overextended is actually buffed within its exchange, and frames can stop being nerfed because developers attempting to plan around player range increases while hoping players won't use that mod won't be forced to nerf a warframe radial ability when players use that mod.

Edited October 14, 2018 by MechaKnight

[000l000]

Why people are calling nerfs even when things are getting better - In the end Saryn has been buffed. the only issue i can think of reading this forum and playing with other people is that most players didn't have a clue about how to play her, which is why devs have emphasized her synergies through this update. If you see a nerf that's only because you suck at playing her !

If one is spamming Saryn 4th all day long, and trust me many people in this game are spamming 4 with any frame all day long, he can't complain much cause he's only playing wrong.

Devs decide how each frame's kit is working, not players.

[Leqesai]

On 2018-10-12 at 9:29 AM, seashrine said:

I am sorry, but it IS a nerf. They basicaly kept the damage of Miasma on spores as it should have been. Then they halved the un-spored damage, and finally they nerfed spore's damage by 30%, to "compensate for the buff".

I agree; it's an overall nerf. And it should be stated as one, not as a "Heyyyyyyy we are actually buffing some things".

It isn't a nerf...

 

You are missing the point.

Miasma is designed to work with spore. It spreads spore if a target dies while affected. Now that it does more damage to spores target, and less damage yo targets without spores, you accidentally kill targets without spore less frequently.

It works really well together now. Better than ever before. 

[MirageKnight]

On 2018-10-15 at 12:33 PM, moostar95 said:

She has been reworked into something more overpowered.

FTFY. She still utterly dominates defensive missions at present and prevents a vast majority of non-Saryn players from adding any kind of meaningful contribution to the mission.

If that was DE's intended goal, which I sincerely hope it isn't, then they succeeded. In spades.

On 2018-10-15 at 12:20 PM, 000l000 said:

If one is spamming Saryn 4th all day long, and trust me many people in this game are spamming 4 with any frame all day long, he can't complain much cause he's only playing wrong.

Except most people are actually spamming her 1 all day long, with the occasional 4 to add icing to the overpowered cake.

It's gotten to the point that anytime I see a Saryn on a Defense / Intercept map now, I leave. Because I want to actually participate on those kind of maps, not watch as at least 75% of the enemies that spawn over the entire tileset get covered in spores within seconds and then promptly die - with a couple of clicks. That's not an opinion, that's an observable and demonstrable fact.

The rework to Spores is arguably THE worst thing to happen to Saryn, in that it's negatively affecting every other player that has to play alongside a Saryn kill-hog.

[Leqesai]

52 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

FTFY. She still utterly dominates defensive missions at present and prevents a vast majority of non-Saryn players from adding any kind of meaningful contribution to the mission.

If that was DE's intended goal, which I sincerely hope it isn't, then they succeeded. In spades.

Except most people are actually spamming her 1 all day long, with the occasional 4 to add icing to the overpowered cake.

It's gotten to the point that anytime I see a Saryn on a Defense / Intercept map now, I leave. Because I want to actually participate on those kind of maps, not watch as at least 75% of the enemies that spawn over the entire tileset get covered in spores within seconds and then promptly die - with a couple of clicks. That's not an opinion, that's an observable and demonstrable fact.

The rework to Spores is arguably THE worst thing to happen to Saryn, in that it's negatively affecting every other player that has to play alongside a Saryn kill-hog.

Spamming 1? What...

 

I'm not sure how you play Saryn but I've never been in a situation where spamming 1 made logical sense. Especially since you can spread spores without casting it over and over... That's the whole point of these changes to Miasma. Miasma is a great way to spread spores.

 

I see your point about Saryn taking a lot of the kills but it isn't impossible to outdamage her and collect more kills. But if you're not playing a frame that is heavily DPS oriented then yeah you're going to struggle. Same with most of the other DPS frames. Banshee still wrecks kill counts for most of the game, so does Ember. Saryn shines when you get to the high level content and she has built significant spore damage, but there is ramp up time to this and if your team is pretty good at collecting kills then it severely hurts Saryn's ability to control the map.

[000l000]

Il y a 10 heures, MirageKnight a dit :

FTFY. She still utterly dominates defensive missions at present and prevents a vast majority of non-Saryn players from adding any kind of meaningful contribution to the mission.

If that was DE's intended goal, which I sincerely hope it isn't, then they succeeded. In spades.

Except most people are actually spamming her 1 all day long, with the occasional 4 to add icing to the overpowered cake.

It's gotten to the point that anytime I see a Saryn on a Defense / Intercept map now, I leave. Because I want to actually participate on those kind of maps, not watch as at least 75% of the enemies that spawn over the entire tileset get covered in spores within seconds and then promptly die - with a couple of clicks. That's not an opinion, that's an observable and demonstrable fact.

The rework to Spores is arguably THE worst thing to happen to Saryn, in that it's negatively affecting every other player that has to play alongside a Saryn kill-hog.

My wife plays Saryn a lot, and even with max range spores i can tell you i can still kill some enemies around. In higher level content spores only struggle to kill alone and many frames are killing stuff even faster than Saryn anyway. Unless you're here only for the sake of complaining you must quit missions a lot since Volt, Mag, Revenant, Equinox, Mesa or even Gara can clean a map in a second too. In fact you should only play with Wukong, it would be your dream team - Oh wait even he does have extended range on his exalted weapon. 😄

Now you can call "demonstrable fact" all day long, it doesn't necessarily mean it's actually a fact. It only prevents you from arguing. You should play Saryn more than that, each defense phase pretty much resets its spore damage score and if she's playing along with any decent cleaner, getting spores is a real pain. Even Saryn's life can be a nightmare you know. 🙂

Edited October 17, 2018 by 000l000

[Mach25]

21 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

FTFY. She still utterly dominates defensive missions at present and prevents a vast majority of non-Saryn players from adding any kind of meaningful contribution to the mission.

If that was DE's intended goal, which I sincerely hope it isn't, then they succeeded. In spades.

Except most people are actually spamming her 1 all day long, with the occasional 4 to add icing to the overpowered cake.

It's gotten to the point that anytime I see a Saryn on a Defense / Intercept map now, I leave. Because I want to actually participate on those kind of maps, not watch as at least 75% of the enemies that spawn over the entire tileset get covered in spores within seconds and then promptly die - with a couple of clicks. That's not an opinion, that's an observable and demonstrable fact.

The rework to Spores is arguably THE worst thing to happen to Saryn, in that it's negatively affecting every other player that has to play alongside a Saryn kill-hog.

I just kick my feet up and let them level my toys for me while I sip some tea and watch some YouTube. Great for letting someone else grind your frame up for you.

[Birdframe_Prime]

13 hours ago, moostar95 said:

Agreed, i chill out and watch some youtube. They want to kill everything. More free xp for me!

You know, it's times like these that I miss my old internet...

My current place is in a small village and, for whatever reason, dear BT Internet have a unique little piece of 'screw you' working on their junction boxes. At least once every ten minutes, it completely turns off the internet for an entire second.

Now, on any of your normal connections, be that downloads or streaming and so on, that's not really a problem, you'll see a dip, but because the connection is kind of dumb, it just carries on from the point you left off, not even really blinking at the minor interruption.

But with online gaming? Disconnects you from the current match. Counts as you leaving games in Overwatch, drops you back to the Liset in Warframe... painful.

Means I always, now at least, have to grind my own stuff. No more communal leeching.