Player Veto of Foreign Buffs Still Needed

[AreeSoothsayer]

I support the idea to opt out of certain buffs. After enduring Volt speed spam of 11s buffs, backflipping out of it every time, on my 620% power Khora with 93% speed buff Venari passive. Some of us do not have the reflexes of the Flash. We slam into walls, go straight into enemies too soon when the Volt just Bams down their buff and send a person flying out off a ledge. 

Some of us do not have a choice in the matter. Too fast is just too fast. Having to strip it every 11 seconds or less... is frustrating. Not fun at all.

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

Proposal:

Backflip Opt Out, has a Duration timer, say 30s. during which you will remain opted-out from future effects.

This would greatly help with the Volt-Spam

[ZodiacShinryu]

On ‎2018‎-‎10‎-‎15 at 2:01 AM, EDYinnit said:

A player's time can be wasted or their experience worsened by the influence. If it wasn't identified as potentially unwanted then it would not have a cleansing action to begin with. Just because you're fine with it doesn't mean everyone must be; please don't confuse the impersonal 'you' with a specific reference to yourself.

Does it matter if it is a personal account or not in the grand scheme of things? There will be people who fall in line with me just by statistical weights of a population. You need to suggest that there is a large enough group to spend resources on this. "Time wasted or experience worsened" is a broad dimension on a slippery slope. I personally have no real objections to a method to ignore "Speed" simply because what it does is not in anyway necessary for anything even when not modded (as in there is no content where Speed itself would change a success probability of a mission to a noticeable degree). Speed could be built into Volts passive for just himself and given a new ability and I am still not missing a beat. But built upon a basis of "negative experience" is indicative of almost anything someone doesn't like (you've basically elevated a minor inconvenience into a full blown war so to speak just by phrasing). Where exactly does it stop once the ball rolls? All this considering it was borne from a situation YOU don't want to deal with. The fact that Speed was changed to an opt in then changed to an opt out should give you an idea of where you stand.

On ‎2018‎-‎10‎-‎15 at 2:01 AM, EDYinnit said:

This is a lot of waffle that boils down to another goalpost moving. Obviously this is not the universal 'way the world works' as you originally claimed, although it is difficult to find analogies in real life where there can be a solution where nobody needs to compromise. There is no downside for either party in the context of this thread's suggestion.

My original claim was more like "sometimes you just need to deal with the hand you were given, or work to produce the results you want". The world operates chaotically at base, public matchmaking operates chaotically at base. The way humans have tried to deal with it is by adding "order" which is something a more refined streamlined matchmaking would do or simply recruit chat. But downsides are always created. For Speed itself? It is a minor ability doing minor things, it could probably get away with just annoyed people waiting for slow people (for people that don't have the skill and foresight to deal with it). But there are all kinds of effects out there that affect outcomes more robustly and having to deal with people that decide to opt-out for any given reason that really shouldn't have can "waste time and worsen experiences".

On ‎2018‎-‎10‎-‎15 at 2:01 AM, EDYinnit said:

No, the game presents the baseline of an experience by what is designed and programmed to happen. You can go in rank 0, unmodded, and use no abilities to have that base experience. You can then alter the way you engage that experience with mods and abilities. Any other player also brings their own set of influences. But those should not change your control and gameplay directly without you having any agency in the matter. 

But Speed isn't designed and programmed to happen? Sarcasm aside. Mods and abilities are huge systems of the game and are a huge draw for the game itself. Suggesting the base experience outside the literal sense of the phrase, no mods or abilities is not reflective of the game. I could agree that perhaps modding has push a number of abilities to extremes they likely were never meant to cover. Outside Limbo (who only really does it because of how powerful an extreme case is) and a few positional changing abilities like Loki Switch Teleport is control ever really changed to a degree worth noting. Speed (and Jetstream by extension) is by far minor to that and you can opt out now. And spending time with it could actually possibly increase your proficiency. What does and does not constituent a change in gameplay directly is a much more broad topic considering there are abilities and effects that actively rub against each other.

On ‎2018‎-‎10‎-‎15 at 2:01 AM, EDYinnit said:

I have previously described how this does in fact promote co-operative gameplay. If I wanted to avoid Speed currently _{electric puns} I would have to abort out of any mission containing Volt (or other such influences), whereas with this implemented I would be able to play with any frame in the squad without needing to concern myself with the unwanted effect. Ergo, more viable squads without the need to abort, more welcome diversity, more co-op.

Increasing the diversity of frames YOU can play with does not equate to actual increase in co-op gameplay. Four people sharing the same space isn't co-op, it is just that four people sharing space; with all luck you have the same objective. The lack of co-op is exactly the problem that has lead you here. You want the game to play independently of certain things. If you joined a Volt that wasn't going to use Speed anyway it is just as viable now as it is with changes. You've done nothing but remove an actual possible co-op element even if it is just yourself.

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

 Opting out of buffs should only be an option if it's all or none. Opting out is just a band-aid in itself to avoid fixing the root problems and DE would likely fix those issues anyway when they see everyone just permanently opts out of specific buffs so it would be pointless.

Volt is constantly an issue? Change Speed to have a power strength cap on allies. It won't matter how much power strength Volt has if the ally portion of the buff no longer scales beyond +50% power strength (for example).

Limbo's rift being unwieldy when it comes to ally interaction shouldn't just be ignored when there's countless good rift interaction improvement threads. Disabling the rift on yourself won't make things any easier either. What happens when Cataclysm is up around enemies or they are rifted and you physically can't be? You literally have to use abilities to kill them or wait out the fantastically long ability duration. No exception.Then you couldn't play Trinity, Harrow, Loki, and (possibly after rework?) Nyx, and several others depending on their build.

Opting out of buffs has been suggested many times, and it's still not a good solution. It does nothing to actually improve the game. Just keep making threads pointing out mechanics and abilities that are an issue and offer solutions instead of taking the lazy way out.

[Birdframe_Prime]

The problem I have with total opt-outs is the way that this could be very much abused or just mis-understood by players.

If, for example, you opt out of Banish, then you will then never be able to kill enemies within the Rift, even if Limbo puts down his Cataclysm, because it's the Rift mechanic you're opting out of not the single ability. Meaning that a player who knows you've opted out of being in the Rift would purposely be able to wide-area prevent you from killing enemies in the opposite nature to the way they do now, with equal amounts of frustration.

Imagine getting Rifted in one mission, not understanding, thinking it's a debuff or similar because you're a new player, going to the options and seeing that you can turn it off, and then have the problem of any Limbo basically excluding you from the game as they play.

And then again... where would you put the goalposts of this opt-out?

Gara's Splinter Storm can scale its damage up infinitely if she farms it well, meaning that the defensive buff she gives you could be dealing huge amounts of damage every tick, but you're using melee for preference and it's killing things before you are, preventing your combo from ever increasing.

You could be using a Rage build for your Chroma, farming energy and relying on the received damage to buff up your own defense/offense, and Harrow's 4 comes along at an in-opportune time and makes you invincible, completely preventing you from getting energy when you need it to recast your buffs before they're over.

I've seen every argument people have about Volt, but at the same time, so have DE, they've tried dozens of different ways, most of them in a big flurry of activity over two months in 2017 trying to find other ways to opt-out, or even opt-in instead, and none of those actually worked either. The backflip is kind of just the least of the evils that we could have.

While Volt's is a consistent irritation, one that I personally don't relate to, but can empathise with, it's also one that has been noticed by the Devs. Addressed, attempted, settled with the least problematic version...

There are all sorts of buffs in this game that, because of a specific build you're running at the time, are inconvenient to you.

So the issue is kind of on us, as players, to adapt to other people that are inconvenient, the same way we do in real life.

[TheLexiConArtist]

On 2018-10-15 at 8:20 AM, Axio. said:

Why should your play preferences affect their playstyle, if you can't stand having the situation be the other way around?

What's so bad about spending -- at a reasonable maximum -- 20 minutes with someone who is doing something that you have the ability to walk away from? On Survival, Capture, Spy, Rescue, Exterminate, Interception, and Excavation missions, you have the opportunity to simply not interact with these people. In Defense missions, you can simply drop out at 5. Abilities have a maximum range, and just as they are free to build for, as well as use, those abilities, you are free to leave their range, as well as the mission.

Plus, a majority of the community does not have problems with many of the buffs you have called attention to, and they simply adjust their playstyles accordingly.

 

You seem to not be understanding that the proposal explicitly seeks to not impact the playstyle of the person using an ability while providing a pre-emptive solution to that person affecting the playstyle of others who might not welcome it.

Sure, I don't always abort out, and per example, relic runs might typically be short - but constantly backflipping still an unnecessary, unwanted extra that gets incredibly grating. Especially in situations where you're running a lot more of the mission than you might 'normally'. It adds up when the influence is common (relic runs), and even small delays only become more significant in smaller scopes.

Range is not an adequate argument either - when the objective is uniform, as with a single waypoint or path to objective/extraction, it is expected that squadmates will often be relatively near to one another. And there's no indicator of the range, either, so how you expect this to be feasible is unknown to me.

You shouldn't presume to speak for others. A majority of the community may simply be 'suffering in silence', so to speak. No real way of knowing how many people might use the option and enjoy the increased agency over their gameplay until it's implemented and known.

On 2018-10-15 at 4:22 PM, voltocitygel said:

Fair enough. I can understand it, at least. It takes me around a second to adjust when a volt with a different power strength uses speed. Like I mentioned though, the current opt out would work better if the duration was longer. Then the people who wanted it wouldn't have to cast all the time, and the recipients wouldn't have to opt out constantly.

i understand the rationale behind your idea- I'm just not 100% for it. It would be handy sometimes, but it'll be difficult to pull off without ruining most of what makes warframe fun- being awesome with your team. 

To cite the title of my previous attempt at getting this done - prevention is better than a cure. It could be abused to remove almost any influence from teammates, but... while you might question why someone doing that does not simply play solo in that case, in others it allows for more awesomeness. The new Power Donation aura, for example - imagine still being allowed to make use of this aura in a squad without neutering the effect of a Speed-Nova, because they opted out of receiving any foreign increases to power strength?

In terms of unwanted Movement Speed buffs, the following synergies are among those which arise if I can selectively avoid that stat being affected instead of having to avoid the frame/ability entirely:

• I can take an attack speed augment from the Volt in a squad.
• I can have Jet-Stream Zephyr provide my projectiles with increased FAST.
• I can take advantage of well-placed teleportation from an Escape-Velocity augmented Nova without momentum suffering afterwards.

 

11 hours ago, ZodiacShinryu said:

Increasing the diversity of frames YOU can play with does not equate to actual increase in co-op gameplay. Four people sharing the same space isn't co-op, it is just that four people sharing space; with all luck you have the same objective. The lack of co-op is exactly the problem that has lead you here. You want the game to play independently of certain things. If you joined a Volt that wasn't going to use Speed anyway it is just as viable now as it is with changes. You've done nothing but remove an actual possible co-op element even if it is just yourself.

I am all too easily drawn into a display of one-upmanship and I do not wish this to impede the thread's discussion further.

Simply responding to the quoted; if I would enjoy making use of Electric Shield and having my ally perform area damage and control with Discharge, then the ability to do this with any unscreened Volt player whilst not being beholden to their usage of Speed affecting me as well is objectively improved co-op.

The Volt player continues to play as they like, and benefits from the abilities I bring to the squad.

I benefit from the Volt abilities that do not interfere with me playing as I like, without requiring any special action from the Volt, or myself (other than pre-selecting menu options).

Nobody has to leave a squad or endure host migrations due to someone leaving a squad based solely on the Warframes present.

Nobody has to spend time finding a group without arbitrary XYZ influences in it.

Everyone has more of a smooth, efficient, enjoyable game with their random matchmade group.

Therefore, co-op experience has improved.

4 hours ago, (PS4)Riko_113 said:

 Opting out of buffs should only be an option if it's all or none. Opting out is just a band-aid in itself to avoid fixing the root problems and DE would likely fix those issues anyway when they see everyone just permanently opts out of specific buffs so it would be pointless.

Opting out of buffs has been suggested many times, and it's still not a good solution. It does nothing to actually improve the game. Just keep making threads pointing out mechanics and abilities that are an issue and offer solutions instead of taking the lazy way out.

I don't want those who enjoy these effects to have to change for my benefit. I just don't want to have to be interrupted at their behest either.

Remember what happened when Speed was altered to a "pick up to activate"? Outcry.

There are also circumstances in which I may wish to situationally accept such an influence, such as desiring a speed assist if I was running a Hobbled Key for a Vault run; or in the case of a Speed Nova wishing to disallow their build goal being violated by an allied Growing Power / Equinox / Power Donation but desiring to benefit from foreign Power Strength in other builds/frames.

You could spot-check all of these abilities as new additions cause them to become affected, or you could make an abstraction that allows the player customisation to intercept the problem before it starts. Speaking from experience - a proper abstraction is almost always more desirable than making a thousand specific tweaks.

 

4 hours ago, (PS4)Riko_113 said:

Limbo's rift being unwieldy when it comes to ally interaction shouldn't just be ignored when there's countless good rift interaction improvement threads. Disabling the rift on yourself won't make things any easier either. What happens when Cataclysm is up around enemies or they are rifted and you physically can't be? You literally have to use abilities to kill them or wait out the fantastically long ability duration. No exception.Then you couldn't play Trinity, Harrow, Loki, and (possibly after rework?) Nyx, and several others depending on their build.

3 hours ago, Thaylien said:

The problem I have with total opt-outs is the way that this could be very much abused or just mis-understood by players.

If, for example, you opt out of Banish, then you will then never be able to kill enemies within the Rift, even if Limbo puts down his Cataclysm, because it's the Rift mechanic you're opting out of not the single ability. Meaning that a player who knows you've opted out of being in the Rift would purposely be able to wide-area prevent you from killing enemies in the opposite nature to the way they do now, with equal amounts of frustration.

Imagine getting Rifted in one mission, not understanding, thinking it's a debuff or similar because you're a new player, going to the options and seeing that you can turn it off, and then have the problem of any Limbo basically excluding you from the game as they play.

Both here missed the Rift example previously stated.

Currently, visualising in pseudo-code:

Spoiler

TARGET.HitBy(DAMAGE_SOURCE)

{

    IF ( Rift_State(TARGET) EQUALS Rift_State(DAMAGE_SOURCE) )

      { TARGET.RemoveHealth(DAMAGE_SOURCE.DamageDealt) }

}

Damage is dealt if the rift state of SOURCE and TARGET match.

And presuming we can reference our new opt-out settings for a player:

Spoiler

TARGET.HitBy(DAMAGE_SOURCE)

{

    IF ( Rift_State(TARGET) EQUALS Rift_State(DAMAGE_SOURCE)

       OR (TARGET.OptOut.IgnoreRift)

       OR (DAMAGE_SOURCE.OptOut.IgnoreRift))

   { TARGET.RemoveHealth(DAMAGE_SOURCE.DamageDealt) }

}

We can just allow all damage TO and FROM rifted entities in the case of any player who has opted out of the mechanic.

(As pseudocode, there'd be a little more in there in actual implementation, but no need to let my programming conventions get in the way of the concept being readable)

 

The whole menu is supposed to be a purely advanced configuration option, and clearly marked/warned as such. New players "shouldn't" be using it if they're not sure. Some will, but nothing is totally proof against unwitting self-sabotage, is it?

 

3 hours ago, Thaylien said:

And then again... where would you put the goalposts of this opt-out?

Gara's Splinter Storm can scale its damage up infinitely if she farms it well, meaning that the defensive buff she gives you could be dealing huge amounts of damage every tick, but you're using melee for preference and it's killing things before you are, preventing your combo from ever increasing.

You could be using a Rage build for your Chroma, farming energy and relying on the received damage to buff up your own defense/offense, and Harrow's 4 comes along at an in-opportune time and makes you invincible, completely preventing you from getting energy when you need it to recast your buffs before they're over.

I've seen every argument people have about Volt, but at the same time, so have DE, they've tried dozens of different ways, most of them in a big flurry of activity over two months in 2017 trying to find other ways to opt-out, or even opt-in instead, and none of those actually worked either. The backflip is kind of just the least of the evils that we could have.

So the issue is kind of on us, as players, to adapt to other people that are inconvenient, the same way we do in real life.

Splinter Storm is an interesting one, I'll concede that. Perhaps it would hold a category of 'damage aura' or 'reactive damage' (like that one Thorns buff from the Titania ability nobody every uses in earnest), alongside the tag of 'damage reduction' of course. Could be a little more involved to code out than the general stat/state changes, depending on how the Splinter-shield is actually implemented.

Invulnerability, damage reduction and restoration could all be categories you could opt out for the sake of fueling Rage (shield restoration separate from health, for that matter). Also Stealth as previously mentioned in the thread, because you can't get mad if they don't know you're there to be hit.

 

I personally had less of an issue with the pick-up opt-in Volt Speed than I do the current backflip-cleanse, but then people put the object unavoidably in doorways and corridors anyway, and it also messed things up for the people wanting to use it.

The aftermath of that, I believe, is what prompted this wholly better solution that is agnostic to anyone other than the person setting it and better abstracted to apply without having to make such specific changes all the time.

Wouldn't it be nicer to have almost everything just work without the risk of stepping on each other's toes?

[voltocitygel]

You know what? as i stated earlier, volt annoyances come from speed. The volt players hate having to cast it every 20 seconds, and squadmates hate having to backflip as often. Make it a channeled ability. You heard that right. As long as he has energy, he can run fast for as long as he wants, which means his squad will have to opt out less, unless trolling is involved- but this way you'd at least eliminate the root problem. You can't fix trolls. (personally, i'll use it less if it's changed like this, but i think this is what the community would benefit more from. i never played him for his 2 anyway)

[Leqesai]

1600 hours in and I've never found my squad buffs to negatively affect my experience.

Expecting to be able to play your way when grouped with randoms is silly. If you want to play a certain way then create your own groups and communicate with your team to not spam buffs and such (or ask them to use frames that don't ruin your experience).

 

I don't want to seem harsh here but a big part of this issue seems to be the disconnect between your expectation of how the game should work and how the game actually works. 

 

[ZodiacShinryu]

8 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

I am all too easily drawn into a display of one-upmanship and I do not wish this to impede the thread's discussion further.

I grow tired of it myself but...

8 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

Simply responding to the quoted; if I would enjoy making use of Electric Shield and having my ally perform area damage and control with Discharge, then the ability to do this with any unscreened Volt player whilst not being beholden to their usage of Speed affecting me as well is objectively improved co-op.

"Objective" is quite the word for the application. I can benefit from a Trinity's support but not actually need it. That isn't co-op nature especially if that person you would have ignored could replace you with anyone and anything. Trinity is doing things and I am doing things, they just happen to be related to each other. If you were to actually work together with a Volt in the first place you likely wouldn't be worried about Speed anyway. It defeats the point to preemptively remove possibilities outright. Especially if you want something as troubling as selectively deciding what parts of buffs you want to honor..

8 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

In terms of unwanted Movement Speed buffs, the following synergies are among those which arise if I can selectively avoid that stat being affected instead of having to avoid the frame/ability entirely:

• I can take an attack speed augment from the Volt in a squad.
• I can have Jet-Stream Zephyr provide my projectiles with increased FAST.
• I can take advantage of well-placed teleportation from an Escape-Velocity augmented Nova without momentum suffering afterwards.

Picking and choosing is definitely going to be a big 'NO NO' from me (not that I matter in particular) so...

8 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

Therefore, co-op experience has improved.

Debatable as "improved" but perhaps its better than nothing depending on how you look at it.

That said the one of the responses I liked was:

21 hours ago, (PS4)haphazardlynamed said:

Proposal:

Backflip Opt Out, has a Duration timer, say 30s. during which you will remain opted-out from future effects.

This would greatly help with the Volt-Spam

You made the effort to opt out of the effects of Speed they might as well give you some breathing room by being unable to be placed under it again for a time.

8 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

Invulnerability, damage reduction and restoration could all be categories you could opt out for the sake of fueling Rage (shield restoration separate from health, for that matter). Also Stealth as previously mentioned in the thread, because you can't get mad if they don't know you're there to be hit.

I just want to clarify some things here being I play Chroma a lot. Rage (and by extension Vex Fury) can be blocked by even health healing. I have come to realize it more robustly with Oberons coming up more often in Arbitrations. Damage dealt under a short window (probably has to do with processing lag) while being healed can negate gains from such effects from taking damage. It takes much longer to reach max stack on Chroma with healers and it doesn't help with any further mitigations which if shields block Fury outright and if health is reduced and possibly negated if you aren't moving past certain thresholds.

[TheLexiConArtist]

9 hours ago, voltocitygel said:

You know what? as i stated earlier, volt annoyances come from speed. The volt players hate having to cast it every 20 seconds, and squadmates hate having to backflip as often. Make it a channeled ability. You heard that right. As long as he has energy, he can run fast for as long as he wants, which means his squad will have to opt out less, unless trolling is involved- but this way you'd at least eliminate the root problem. You can't fix trolls. (personally, i'll use it less if it's changed like this, but i think this is what the community would benefit more from. i never played him for his 2 anyway)

This would possibly work as long as it operates more like Oberon's Renewal pulsing out once and maintaining on affected targets for the channel, and less like other aura-buffs which would simply reapply upon re-entering range (although not channeled, the effect of an un-augmented Chroma's elemetntal ward is an example of this)

But again, we're spot-changing how one ability works instead of futureproofing with something more generic. And someone's going to complain that they can't regen energy while Speed's active any more.

 

6 hours ago, Leqesai said:

1600 hours in and I've never found my squad buffs to negatively affect my experience.

Expecting to be able to play your way when grouped with randoms is silly. If you want to play a certain way then create your own groups and communicate with your team to not spam buffs and such (or ask them to use frames that don't ruin your experience).

I don't want to seem harsh here but a big part of this issue seems to be the disconnect between your expectation of how the game should work and how the game actually works.

Reasonable expectation to engage with enemies to some extent is what led to Blind Mirage and Quake Banshee being reworked.

Please imagine, if you will, a hypothetical Assimilate Nyx who is able to provide that buff to allies as well as herself.

Buff? Sure, you're bloody invincible. But you also suffer the mobility limitation. I'm sure you can see why a player might not want to suffer this influence despite the overall ability being a beneficial effect.

That's no different to Volt providing increased attack speed but also essentially turning a level into ice physics for people whether they like it or not. It's already acknowledged as a potentially unwanted influence by having a backflip cleanse - that's just not good enough because it still interrupts gameplay to do so repeatedly.

 

1 hour ago, ZodiacShinryu said:

I grow tired of it myself but...

...

Debatable as "improved" but perhaps its better than nothing depending on how you look at it.

 

 

I just want to clarify some things here being I play Chroma a lot. Rage (and by extension Vex Fury) can be blocked by even health healing. I have come to realize it more robustly with Oberons coming up more often in Arbitrations. Damage dealt under a short window (probably has to do with processing lag) while being healed can negate gains from such effects from taking damage. It takes much longer to reach max stack on Chroma with healers and it doesn't help with any further mitigations which if shields block Fury outright and if health is reduced and possibly negated if you aren't moving past certain thresholds.

You're conflicting your subjective experience with the objective improvement.

If the worst case scenario is that everything applies to people as it already does (nobody using pre-emptive opt-out) but the best case is more viable squads without a conflict of interest then the result is objectively positive. Enjoyable gameplay differences >= 0.

 

This claim (while only tangentially related) is interesting, I haven't used Rage so much personally that I've noticed any buggy non-generations other than from certain Eidolon abilities. Perhaps report it as a bug outright if you can get some hard evidence?

Still, with opt-outs you'd have the option of relying only on your own health restoration as well, instead of having energy gains from Rage potentially reduced by foreign healing.

[Birdframe_Prime]

10 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

Invulnerability, damage reduction and restoration could all be categories you could opt out for the sake of fueling Rage (shield restoration separate from health, for that matter).

Yeah, but the problem with that would be that you then would either negate the effects of the ability entirely (the desirable part of additive crit chance based on damage mitigated) or you would only get the benefits of the aftermath without the 'downsides' that you wanted.

It stops being about avoiding what you would call negatives (while most others would call them positives based on DE's actual usage of the abilities that they have access to) and all about tailoring your settings like a build to get better effects for your play style.

[TheLexiConArtist]

1 hour ago, Thaylien said:

Yeah, but the problem with that would be that you then would either negate the effects of the ability entirely (the desirable part of additive crit chance based on damage mitigated) or you would only get the benefits of the aftermath without the 'downsides' that you wanted.

It stops being about avoiding what you would call negatives (while most others would call them positives based on DE's actual usage of the abilities that they have access to) and all about tailoring your settings like a build to get better effects for your play style.

I could say this is almost goalpost-moving since the original didn't identify the foreign crit gains as a focus, only the prevention of personal Chroma damage gains, but for the sake of argument both fuel the same end of MORE POWER, so we'll say it's implied.

As I would seek to implement this with respect to Covenant specifically, the following occurs:

• Harrow casts COVENANT
• Players in range attempt to receive COVENANT buff (invulnerability)
• A player opted out of invulnerability does not receive this effect from their COVENANT buff.
  • This player therefore does not contribute towards the secondary effect (C.RETALIATION) as a consequence of not mitigating any damage.
• COVENANT expires.
• All potential targets of the original COVENANT now receive the C.RETALIATION buff (critical chance).
  • If necessary from the code standpoint, the COVENANT buff may exist on the opted-out player to identify them as a valid recipient of C.RETALIATION
• The player has not opted out of critical chance buffs, therefore they receive C.RETALIATION at whatever grade the rest of the COVENANT targets' contributions fueled.

 

Result: Chroma charges up Vex Armour and receives Rage energy from damage received, then receives crit chance (albeit potentially less) along with everyone else. All that has been 'lost' is an ostensibly beneficial effect that happens to situationally not agree with the needs of one member of the squad.

 

Remember, personal buffs will always apply regardless of the opt-out settings. This only restricts allied influences. You wouldn't need to re-enable invulnerability if you wanted to play Harrow yourself (or any other self-immunising warframe).

[000l000]

The only issue i've seen so far is that most people are way too individualistics to play online games with other people these days. Only their own way to play and have fun matters, and having to adapt to anyone else seems impossible. This is resulting in highly frustrated players and quite often highly toxic ones. They need to grow up at once.

No one is pleased because they can't stand Volt's speed, they can't stand Nova's slow, they can't stand speed Nova either, they can't stand Limbo's limbo, they can't stand Frost's bubble or even Gara's walls, they can't stand nukers or anything else - you can just spend an hour reading this forums, people are frustrated about absolutely everything, even things that work perfectly. Sometimes people have more issues than the game itself.

Things are getting worse and worse, and i'm playing games for decades now. That doesn't mean DE isn't responsible for anything either, i think they should at least cap some of this abilities to make them at least bearable for a majority of players. Volt's speed for instance should be capped, it could help with servers stability too and game's performances. But globally people really need to get some education and try to adapt to things instead of whining like 12 years old kids each time they're frustrated with something - It's getting really old.

[TheLexiConArtist]

3 minutes ago, 000l000 said:

The only issue i've seen so far is that most people are way too individualistics to play online games with other people these days. Only their own way to play and have fun matters, and having to adapt to anyone else seems impossible. This is resulting in highly frustrated players and quite often highly toxic ones. They need to grow up at once.

But globally people really need to get some education and try to adapt to things instead of whining like 12 years old kids each time they're frustrated with something - It's getting really old.

I'll say it again - if things like the Rift State and Speed weren't acknowledged as potential problem cases, the devs wouldn't have seen fit to put a cleansing function on them.

Also last time I checked, 'whining kids' doesn't generally include the thought and resolution process of "This is a problem; the current solution is inadequate; here is a proposition that solves for the identified problems (and potential future ones) without forcing changes on anyone".

 

Is this suggestion more or less childish than, say, sitting down in front of extraction for the full 60 extra seconds in an otherwise ~3 minute relic cracking run in protest of the unwanted influences of your squadmates?

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 hour ago, EDYinnit said:

Result: Chroma charges up Vex Armour and receives Rage energy from damage received, then receives crit chance (albeit potentially less)

And therein lies the problem, you would have the gain from the ability, but not have the balancing of the stage before that has both the benefits and the drawbacks implied by its nature.

In a situation like Speed, the things you get are all based on that one stat; movement speed, meaning that melee speed is increased as well because that factors in, the opt-out on the buff is then simple; you do not accept a melee speed buff.

The others? More complicated. Direct damage mitigation affecting your ability to gain energy from the Rage mechanic almost always comes with a secondary effect that's beneficial as well that works off something else. Limbo's Rift Plane, if you opt out of it, means you'll not be able to kill enemies when they are in the Rift, as a direct counter-point. And a few dozen others, but these are known to be common complaints, and all of them affect far more than just one little aspect, they don't affect just one stat that you can easily say that you would gladly sacrifice the secondary in favour of not being affected by the primary.

For example, would you say that having to roll out of The Rift was so annoying that you would opt out, but then expect to be able to damage enemies that Limbo placed inside it? If I know anything about the way DE balances, then the blunt answer is no.

Likewise, if you didn't go through the damage absorb phase of Covenant, why would you get the crit bonuses?

So you're faced with the opposite problem that we start with, in that case, which is what to do when you've opted out, but then can't get any of the beneficial things that you may want that come from these.

If your answer is that you get the benefits without the drawbacks, then it simply isn't going to happen, even in a reduced state.

Which is why my first comment turns up that answer of simply... it really is on us, as players, to adapt to these changes and buffs as they happen to us, even if our personal preference is that we didn't have them in the first place. It is better to choose to use something that irritates us, use it for our own ends, than it is to refuse to accept it and try to get that function removed at the expense of other people.

[KX297]

Man, this always seems to be such a touchy topic for people.
I really don't like Volt's speed buff, and I would love to just never receive it.
But whenever this comes up, people just say thing along the lines of "Make your own squad" and "Don't play public".
However, I find that to be a really poorly thought out 'solution' to the issue.

There are 30+ Unique Warframes in the game.
I would hate to stop using public and constantly make lobbies for each mission just to avoid a single Warframe because of one of his abilities.
That just seems ridiculous.

You could always say that I'm just overexaggerating and that this is just some minor issue, but It seems to be one that comes up a decent amount.
These complaints about 'foreign buffs' pop up frequently (usually referring to Volt's Speed and Limbo's Rift from what I've seen), so even assuming it's still a great minority amongst the player base, it is probably be something DE should at least take into consideration.

I think what this really comes down to is the design of the buff though.
For me, the one and only buff in the game that I greatly dislike and want to avoid is Volt's Speed. 
We move very fast in the game already and I don't care for the movement speed it provides.
I would gladly never accept the reload speed accompanying it if it meant never having the change in Warframe movement speed.

There are other issues I have with it (most notably related to my recent enjoyment of Titania ---> See here: https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1019210-titania-and-volt-interaction-please-consider-altering-this-de/?tab=comments#comment-10230235), but the movement speed is basically the reason I never want it.
But, of course, people will just say "Then backflip out of it!"
And this is where my big issues with the ability really start to come in.

Limbo's Rift doesn't bug me for two main reasons -
1) Rolling is something that I do a lot outside of avoiding this buff and it very much feels like it belongs in the game. It fits in well with the movement and combat.
2) Limbo has to be really spamming the ability, which most I've come across are not. 

On the other hand, backflipping out of Volt's Speed has always felt jarring to me.
Like, I'm walking, shooting, and so forth. Rolling is easy to fit into that and feels good to do.
Backflipping is just so... weird? It doesn't feel fluid, it doesn't feel like it fits the pace, and so forth.
I mean, I actively roll in general, but I never find myself backflipping outside of Volt's buff. 

I think that if the method of opting out of the ability was something that was easier and more fluid, the ability would be less problematic for players who don't actually want it.  
At least, it would be, if it wasn't for the fact that generally, Speed is a low duration ability.
Volt's I play with recast this ability a lot. 
What does this mean? More awkward backflips. 
But I don't want the Volt player to necessarily suffer because I don't want their buff. That would be dumb.
So, as others suggested (and assuming the ability remains a low duration / heavily recasted one), it would probably be nice to have a window that prevents the buff from being reapplied. At least, assuming that DE never adds a function to fully remove or avoid it to start with. 

 

Anyways, I'm generally in favor of having more options to improve play amongst random lobbies, and I think that having some way to opt out of certain buff would be nice.
However, I'm really not sure if DE will ever give us some way to prevent an ability from affecting us entirely (like, say, an option in the menus).
So I think the next best thing they could do is just reavaluate the design of the 'foreign buffs' in the game and take these issues into consideration when designing future Warframes.
 

 

[TheLexiConArtist]

1 hour ago, Thaylien said:

And therein lies the problem, you would have the gain from the ability, but not have the balancing of the stage before that has both the benefits and the drawbacks implied by its nature.

In a situation like Speed, the things you get are all based on that one stat; movement speed, meaning that melee speed is increased as well because that factors in, the opt-out on the buff is then simple; you do not accept a melee speed buff.

The others? More complicated. Direct damage mitigation affecting your ability to gain energy from the Rage mechanic almost always comes with a secondary effect that's beneficial as well that works off something else. Limbo's Rift Plane, if you opt out of it, means you'll not be able to kill enemies when they are in the Rift, as a direct counter-point. And a few dozen others, but these are known to be common complaints, and all of them affect far more than just one little aspect, they don't affect just one stat that you can easily say that you would gladly sacrifice the secondary in favour of not being affected by the primary.

For example, would you say that having to roll out of The Rift was so annoying that you would opt out, but then expect to be able to damage enemies that Limbo placed inside it? If I know anything about the way DE balances, then the blunt answer is no.

Likewise, if you didn't go through the damage absorb phase of Covenant, why would you get the crit bonuses?

So you're faced with the opposite problem that we start with, in that case, which is what to do when you've opted out, but then can't get any of the beneficial things that you may want that come from these.

If your answer is that you get the benefits without the drawbacks, then it simply isn't going to happen, even in a reduced state.

Which is why my first comment turns up that answer of simply... it really is on us, as players, to adapt to these changes and buffs as they happen to us, even if our personal preference is that we didn't have them in the first place. It is better to choose to use something that irritates us, use it for our own ends, than it is to refuse to accept it and try to get that function removed at the expense of other people.

The simple answer is that these things are ostensibly beneficial effects, and therefore if you opt out of (part of) one, then.. you're getting fewer, even if non-zero benefits. You're not opting out of an objectively detrimental effect because these existing would permit directly griefing other players. Besides the Rift, but more later.

Covenant:

You're not getting invulnerability, but is that any different from a person who got the invulnerability, but hid out of sight of any enemies, therefore didn't get hit to contribute to the crit chance? They still get the secondary buff after the fact, so why not someone who avoids the invuln outright?

Volt Speed:

Attack and Movement Speed are not intertwined, or we'd see ludicrous attack speed for every other speed buff (Augmented-Zephyrs and Nezhas for example). The two effects are distinct. Once again, is this different from someone who quick-melees in place when affected by Speed? They're not moving around actively, therefore only effectively altered by the attack-speed portion. You're not forced to build up the attackspeed in a manner not unlike Volt's own passive, it's a separate function.

The Rift:

I think you're misjudging the rift state entirely, as this is the one case in which 'drawbacks' and benefits are intertwined but both aspects are overridden in my theoretical implementation of an opt-out for Rift mechanics entirely:

• Rift Player can damage Rift Enemy (+ vice-versa)
• Rift Player cannot damage Non-Rift Enemy (+ vice-versa)

Those are the the two linked aspects of the Rift, ignoring the fact that Warframe abilities override it. However, if you opt out:

• Opt-Out Player can damage Rift Enemy (+ vice-versa)
• Opt-Out Player can damage Non-Rift Enemy (+ vice-versa)

You, opted out, ignore the drawback of not being able to hit enemies in the opposing state, BUT you also ignore the benefit of not being able to be hit by enemies in the opposing state.

Status quo is maintained. No exploitative outcome is achieved.

[Birdframe_Prime]

32 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

You're not getting invulnerability, but is that any different from a person who got the invulnerability, but hid out of sight of any enemies, therefore didn't get hit to contribute to the crit chance?

Entirely different, because that player is not trying to exploit a mechanic like Rage, which is deliberately not functional in the Invulnerable state. Which is where the point of this function being a problem started.

In this particular case, you are attempting to get the bonus from the ability without the drawback of being unable to use other mechanics that rely on taking damage, such as Chroma's Vex or the Rage mechanic. Meanwhile a person that hid is not getting any of those benefits, so even though they are not contributing to the ability the result is exactly balanced by the contribution.

33 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

• Opt-Out Player can damage Rift Enemy (+ vice-versa)
• Opt-Out Player can damage Non-Rift Enemy (+ vice-versa)

You, opted out, ignore the drawback of not being able to hit enemies in the opposing state, BUT you also ignore the benefit of not being able to be hit by enemies in the opposing state.

And this is exactly the same thing, you are attempting to get the benefits of another player using their abilities without the existing drawbacks of them.

In this way a Limbo player using Banish and his time stop CC would be providing you with a the most powerful CC in the game without any of the involvement you would need usually of going into the Rift yourself to attack them.

That, and even if enemies in the Rift became able to damage you as a consequence, that still does not outweigh the incredible exploit that this would be.

Overall, I'm still with you guys on Volt, it's still something that's a problem to many (though I've never found it to be a personal issue) but again... the option to basically deny buffs is linked to far more than just saying you don't like having to roll/backflip out of certain buffs, often the negatives are actual balances on the ability's results.

You can't just expect to simply negate the parts you don't like out of a game which is directly built on co-operative play.

[TheLexiConArtist]

4 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

Entirely different, because that player is not trying to exploit a mechanic like Rage, which is deliberately not functional in the Invulnerable state. Which is where the point of this function being a problem started.

In this particular case, you are attempting to get the bonus from the ability without the drawback of being unable to use other mechanics that rely on taking damage, such as Chroma's Vex or the Rage mechanic. Meanwhile a person that hid is not getting any of those benefits, so even though they are not contributing to the ability the result is exactly balanced by the contribution.

 

And this is exactly the same thing, you are attempting to get the benefits of another player using their abilities without the existing drawbacks of them.

In this way a Limbo player using Banish and his time stop CC would be providing you with a the most powerful CC in the game without any of the involvement you would need usually of going into the Rift yourself to attack them.

That, and even if enemies in the Rift became able to damage you as a consequence, that still does not outweigh the incredible exploit that this would be.

You presume that the intention was for Rage to be prevented from functioning as a part of such effects rather than it being a side-effect of such. Certainly that's how it operates now, but that doesn't mean that it was a specific goal of the design.

You're also conflating distinct effects again. The drawback of the invulnerability, if you argue it as such, is to prevent Rage-like mechanics. Receiving a secondary buff is not predicated on this drawback - regardless of someone being functionally affected by the immunity, the crit buff is applied. Avoiding the drawback, therefore, does cost its associated benefit. You do not get to both become invulnerable and generate energy from Rage on damage that was mitigated by invulnerability.

 

In the same way, Stasis is a separate article than the Rift State itself.

Anyone standing anywhere but using warframe abilities hits any Stasis target regardless of Rift state already.

Anyone in the Rift has the same net avoidance of Rift 'drawback' (vulnerability to rift-plane units despite immunity to others) when Stasis has been cast.

Anyone overriding the Rift mechanics gains no beneficial protection from enemies subject to Stasis because they're not acting either way.

You gain nothing but the removal of a griefing state in which enemies are kept in the Rift and allies being unable to damage them with any non-ability source unless Limbo graces them with a Cataclysm, Banish, or portal through which to change their state.

This is not an exploit any more than Vauban conventionally utilising a Bastille to provide inactive targets to shoot at your leisure is an exploit. Neither are fighting back.

[Birdframe_Prime]

3 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

You presume that the intention was for Rage to be prevented from functioning as a part of such effects rather than it being a side-effect of such.

You're presuming that this wasn't the intended consequence of using a powerful ability.

3 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

Receiving a secondary buff is not predicated on this drawback

No, but it clearly is predicated on receiving the initial effect. If you do not receive the initial effect, you cannot receive of the secondary. Opting out of the initial effect would, and should, prevent the secondary effect.

3 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

In the same way, Stasis is a separate article than the Rift State itself.

But in exactly the same way, the CC is purely a state that exists because of the primary state. Effect following on directly from an effect. You cannot Stasis enemies that are outside of the Rift.

If you do not receive the primary effect, you cannot, and should not, be able to exploit the secondary.

The argument is there for Warframe Abilities, because these are designed to affect enemies in either state for balance and anti-griefing. However, all physical attacks, such as weapons, are prevented if the enemy is in the opposite plane to you.

If you opt out of the Rift in the current method, by rolling, you cannot interact with enemies within it using non-ability means, and the same should be true of opting out via a global toggle.

And this is because you are gaining the advantages of a secondary effect without being subject to the primary, which is the rule for receiving the secondary effect under any other circumstances.

Vauban is not the same, as the primary, and only, effect of his ability is CC. There is no conditional function on it other than a limit to how many enemies it can hold, that being one of the other ways to balance a CC ability along with Duration or cost.

Since there is no conditional effect necessary to use Bastille, the comparison simply doesn't work.

A better comparison would be a theoretical. If, say, Nyx used Chaos, which in this setup turned all enemies in a radius into friendly units that attacked each other, and not you, marking them all invulnerable to friendly fire for the duration unless Nyx cast a secondary ability that turned on friendly fire. Then make that second ability have the unfortunate side-effect of 'friendly fire' also counting against players. The situation is then comparable, players would want to opt out of that second ability because they don't want to get killed by allies by accident, but because they're avoiding that specific effect of turning on friendly fire, they would not and should not be able to damage the enemies marked as friendly.

No secondary effect without primary effect. That's what these abilities are built around, the conditional situations.

If you opt out of the primary, you then should not be able to benefit from the secondary.

[voltocitygel]

14 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

This would possibly work as long as it operates more like Oberon's Renewal pulsing out once and maintaining on affected targets for the channel, and less like other aura-buffs which would simply reapply upon re-entering range (although not channeled, the effect of an un-augmented Chroma's elemetntal ward is an example of this)

But again, we're spot-changing how one ability works instead of futureproofing with something more generic. And someone's going to complain that they can't regen energy while Speed's active any more.

Yeah, oberon is what made me think of it. And some channeled abilities let you pick up energy. unless they made it so they all act like covenant. Either way, i think it'd be an improvement. A solution to one warframe, but i think it's a step in the right direction. Plus, it makes sense. Wouldnt it take consistent energy to run fast?

Ideally, you would make warframe kits that are difficult or impossible to reasonably "bother" other players with. But I see what you mean. 

[Birdframe_Prime]

9 hours ago, voltocitygel said:

And some channeled abilities let you pick up energy.

Myth. There are two abilities that are toggled on and allow energy absorb/regen (as opposed to orb pickup), but they are not Drain/Channelled abilities. The two in question are Desecrate for Nekros, which works as a per-target basis, and Artemis Bow, which works on a per-shot basis.

Any ability that costs you a Drain of energy over time cannot receive energy from external sources, only Orbs and the Rage mechanic.

Although... Speed is, and always has been, the primary offender because it 'changes player input', making it more difficult to use your regular muscle memory and map sense to travel when you're playing a frame that doesn't have these kinds of speed increases.

Spot fixing that one ability for now may, in fact, have a way to solve it. There's a particular form of tap/hold that's used on Nidus, where if you tap the ability it just happens, and if you hold it you can see the aim and area of effect of the cast. With a little modification the answer could be there, where a tap could activate it for Volt only, but a half-second hold would reveal a radius of the cast and it would then affect everyone in it.

A Volt that was just trying to sprint the mission, therefore, would be able to go do their own thing, while a team that wants the buff could get them to press for a half second longer and it would be an actual team buff on demand.

It could also allow for the buff duration to be longer, because it's a personal buff unless it's deliberately shared.

[TheLexiConArtist]

12 hours ago, Thaylien said:

You're presuming that this wasn't the intended consequence of using a powerful ability.

No, but it clearly is predicated on receiving the initial effect. If you do not receive the initial effect, you cannot receive of the secondary. Opting out of the initial effect would, and should, prevent the secondary effect.

But in exactly the same way, the CC is purely a state that exists because of the primary state. Effect following on directly from an effect. You cannot Stasis enemies that are outside of the Rift.

If you do not receive the primary effect, you cannot, and should not, be able to exploit the secondary.

The argument is there for Warframe Abilities, because these are designed to affect enemies in either state for balance and anti-griefing. However, all physical attacks, such as weapons, are prevented if the enemy is in the opposite plane to you.

If you opt out of the Rift in the current method, by rolling, you cannot interact with enemies within it using non-ability means, and the same should be true of opting out via a global toggle.

And this is because you are gaining the advantages of a secondary effect without being subject to the primary, which is the rule for receiving the secondary effect under any other circumstances.

Vauban is not the same, as the primary, and only, effect of his ability is CC. There is no conditional function on it other than a limit to how many enemies it can hold, that being one of the other ways to balance a CC ability along with Duration or cost.

Since there is no conditional effect necessary to use Bastille, the comparison simply doesn't work.

A better comparison would be a theoretical. If, say, Nyx used Chaos, which in this setup turned all enemies in a radius into friendly units that attacked each other, and not you, marking them all invulnerable to friendly fire for the duration unless Nyx cast a secondary ability that turned on friendly fire. Then make that second ability have the unfortunate side-effect of 'friendly fire' also counting against players. The situation is then comparable, players would want to opt out of that second ability because they don't want to get killed by allies by accident, but because they're avoiding that specific effect of turning on friendly fire, they would not and should not be able to damage the enemies marked as friendly.

No secondary effect without primary effect. That's what these abilities are built around, the conditional situations.

If you opt out of the primary, you then should not be able to benefit from the secondary.

This is mostly utter nonsense, I'm sorry to say.

Firstly, I would estimate with at most 1% margin of error that there was no explicit intention of limiting anything other than actual damage taken with Covenant's invulnerability. The fact that other things predicate on taking damage and will therefore not function alongside the invulnerability is mere consequence.

 

Dissimilarly to that issue, when calling these ability facets and outcomes linked you are misjudging equality of effects and equivalence of effects.

Just as 3 * 5 is not an equal expression to 5 * 3 as the multiplier and multiplicand differ, the result is the same and this is therefore an equivalent expression. Same goes for an infinite amount of further permutations that result in 15.

A Vauban's Bastille is not an equal OR equivalent effect to a Limbo's Stasis when Rift states matter; where Vauban is our previous 3*5 and Limbo in this instance is 5*3*(x) - the x in this instance is our boolean rift state. It can be 0 or 1 to affect the outcome.

A Vauban's Bastille is not equal but IS equivalent to Limbo's Stasis when the rift state is overridden to always match true. Vauban = 3*5 = 15; Limbo = 5*3*(1) = 15. The Rift variable here is always 1 and therefore the equations provide identical results.

Vauban can hold fewer targets, but can also throw down multiple concurrent Bastilles. This is essentially irrelevant unless you're pulling a Texas Sharpshooter fallacy.

 

An equivalent Covenant Retaliation expression could be considered as this:

crBuff = (cContrib(s) + cContrib(r))

Where crBuff is the Retaliation Buff received, and cContrib is how much damage has been mitigated by squad (s) and recipient (r).

Now, you can see that the equation becomes identical when cContrib(r) == 0 regardless of why it became 0. Maybe it's 0 because you could never contribute (300 damage taken  * 0.0 (0%) mitigated), maybe it's 0 because you didn't contribute (0 damage taken * 1.0 (100%) mitigated).

In either case, the Retaliation expressions are not equal because cContrib(r) expands to different sub-expressions in the opted-out vs. hidden-in-a-corner cases, but the expressions are equivalent because they both evaluate to crBuff = cContrib(s) + 0.

 

This has been your needlessly mathy technical explanation on why opting out is no more of an exploit than alternatives that are already in place.

[BloodAppraiser]

Can't we just get a customizable match-making filter and problem solved? 🤔

[TheLexiConArtist]

3 minutes ago, BloodAppraiser said:

Can't we just get a customizable match-making filter and problem solved? 🤔

= reducing the pool of viable matchmade sessions = diluting the playerbase = literally more of a problem.

 

But honestly, how would you make a binding contract of matchmaking that lets someone play alongside Volts only if the Volt isn't going to throw Speed buffs at them? I've got no problem with Shock, Electric Shield or Discharge, or them Speeding themselves up for that matter.

Any matchmaking 'solution' is 100% guaranteed inferior to this.