Player Veto of Foreign Buffs Still Needed

[BloodAppraiser]

17 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

= reducing the pool of viable matchmade sessions = diluting the playerbase = literally more of a problem.

 

But honestly, how would you make a binding contract of matchmaking that lets someone play alongside Volts only if the Volt isn't going to throw Speed buffs at them? I've got no problem with Shock, Electric Shield or Discharge, or them Speeding themselves up for that matter.

Any matchmaking 'solution' is 100% guaranteed inferior to this.

Hey but think about it. DE is monitoring almost everything we are doing in warframe right? I bet they also have data of the how many times every specific ability you've casted ever since you've started playing warframe. So at a technical stand point, we should be able to base our filter on abilities or many other variables. Thus we can minimize the damage caused by the "diluting player base" problem and also acheice the same goal as your solution and also not break the balance of the game that some people are worried about. 😀

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 hour ago, EDYinnit said:

This is mostly utter nonsense, I'm sorry to say.

And this is mostly nonsense because you're equations fail to take into account the additional effects caused by these things.

If contribution = 0 on Covenant and you still get the result of Covenant, you do not currently also still get the result of Rage, or chances at Arcane Grace or similar functions that come off Damage Taken.

Under your current, you would get the results of Covenenant, even in a reduced capacity, plus the results of functions that allow you to take damage. That is the exploit.

The same being said of the Vauban/Limbo equation, because the CC offered by Bastille and the CC offered by Stasis are not equal.

You're now making completely false equivalences and trying to hide them in mathematics.

[TheLexiConArtist]

1 minute ago, Thaylien said:

And this is mostly nonsense because you're equations fail to take into account the additional effects caused by these things.

If contribution = 0 on Covenant and you still get the result of Covenant, you do not currently also still get the result of Rage, or chances at Arcane Grace or similar functions that come off Damage Taken.

Under your current, you would get the results of Covenenant, even in a reduced capacity, plus the results of functions that allow you to take damage. That is the exploit.

The same being said of the Vauban/Limbo equation, because the CC offered by Bastille and the CC offered by Stasis are not equal.

You're now making completely false equivalences and trying to hide them in mathematics.

I'm sorry but no.

Unequivocally no.

 

COVENANT RETALIATION is not predicated on COVENANT CONTRIBUTION > 0.

The Covenant expression is that you can receive a Retaliation effect regardless of the contributions you provide.

RAGE ENERGY is predicated on DAMAGE TAKEN > 0

The Rage expression is that you do not receive energy if you do not take damage.

You cannot conflate the two to suit your overall argument. They are two completely different equations and neither are violated by opting out of Covenant Invulnerability.

COV:

No invulnerability = C.CONTRIB = 0; C.RETAL = C.CONTRIB + (SQUAD CONTRIBUTIONS)

Invulnerability = C.CONTRIB >= 0; C.RETAL = C.CONTRIB + (SQUAD CONTRIBUTIONS)

RAGE:

No invulnerability = DAMAGE_TAKEN >= 0; RAGE_ENERGY = (DAMAGE_TAKEN * RAGE%)

Invulnerability = DAMAGE_TAKEN = 0; RAGE_ENERGY = (DAMAGE_TAKEN * RAGE%)

Everything is still within standard operating practice. The independant equations remain equivalent.

 

Bastille's CC is equivalent to Stasis CC (rift-state ignored).

Both completely paralyse a target (or targets).

Both allow the affected targets to be attacked by all opposition.

Target count and duration are not relevant to the functionality of the control effect.

Therefore, ignoring Rift State of targets under Stasis is NOT an exploit if using Bastille ever is not also an exploit.

[Birdframe_Prime]

48 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

RAGE ENERGY is predicated on DAMAGE TAKEN > 0

The Rage expression is that you do not receive energy if you do not take damage.

Yes, but this entire conversation is based on the idea that you do take damage to get the Rage effect, because you're opting out of Covenant's damage mitigation explicitly for that purpose.

You can't say that there is no difference because the entire basis of this argument is that there is one.

54 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

Target count and duration are not relevant to the functionality of the control effect.

Except they are entirely relevant because that's an essential factor of how DE balances the effects of CC.

One CC can only control a fixed amount of targets because there is no other influence on that ability, the other can control unlimited amounts of targets because they are being primed by another ability as a state of being.

This is a key aspect of how CC abilities balance against each other, and by introducing a factor like being able to opt out of the priming stage, or the Rift, you are breaking that balance.

[TheLexiConArtist]

30 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

Yes, but this entire conversation is based on the idea that you do take damage to get the Rage effect, because you're opting out of Covenant's damage mitigation explicitly for that purpose.

You can't say that there is no difference because the entire basis of this argument is that there is one.

 

Except they are entirely relevant because that's an essential factor of how DE balances the effects of CC.

One CC can only control a fixed amount of targets because there is no other influence on that ability, the other can control unlimited amounts of targets because they are being primed by another ability as a state of being.

This is a key aspect of how CC abilities balance against each other, and by introducing a factor like being able to opt out of the priming stage, or the Rift, you are breaking that balance.

But your initial argument was that you should not get Covenant Retaliation because you're not contributing to Covenant mitigations.

This is why your entire basis is a flawed foundation.

You do take damage to get the Rage effect when you opt out of invulnerability. This ensures that no exploit of gaining energy from 'ignored' damage exists.

You do not contribute to Retaliation strength when you opt out of invulnerability. This ensures that no exploit of fueling higher crit chance buffs with damage that has not been mitigated exists.

Therefore, the result is balanced and fair. Effect on drawbacks is matched with effect on benefits in both distinct entities.

 

Regarding the CC, we're still deep in fallacy here. I can't tell if this is goalpost-moving, strawman or texas sharpshooter at this point. Perhaps all.

The pertinent information is thus:

1. Under what circumstances can PLAYER shoot AFFECTED TARGET?
2. What restrictions is an AFFECTED TARGET subject to?

When rift state is ignored by a player with regards to option 1, Bastille and Stasis operate identically in this context.

In all cases for option 2, Bastille and Stasis operate identically (complete inaction).

In both ally-ignoring and non-ignoring cases for the Rift State, the circumstances in which a target BECOMES affected do not change for Stasis: IF RIFT = TRUE.

I could also argue that Limbo is less strong because his area of effect is singular (if Cata-Stasis) and consistently shrinking, whereas Vauban's Bastilles remain at their full size for the entire duration and can be placed in multiple areas at once.

But that's irrelevant to the two factors that matter for the context. The CC effect is identical; a player's ability to shoot the target is worse in the case of current Stasis but would become identical to Bastille in a Rift State opt-out case.

Therefore, Bastille must be an exploit if allowing anyone to shoot a Stasis target is an exploit.

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 hour ago, EDYinnit said:

But your initial argument was that you should not get Covenant Retaliation because you're not contributing to Covenant mitigations.

This is why your entire basis is a flawed foundation.

No, my argument was, and has always been, that you should not be able to opt out of an option in order to get a different one, and then still benefit from the functions of the first.

If Effect 2 (crit) is gated by your character being subject to Effect 1 (mitigation) whether you contribute to the result or not and you instead opt out of Effect 1 in order to get Effect 3 (based on damage received), then you should not get Effect 2.

This is because the net gain for you, personally, is then greater than the intended in-game balance of those effects, and greater than the result that another player who did not opt-out would have received under the same circumstances.

That would be the same for either Chroma's Vex or Limbo's Rift. Another player, using the same frame, with the same team members, that did not opt out of the mechanics, would not have the same advantages as a player that did.

And that is the definition of a game exploitative mechanic.

[Shorty]

Just want to put my comment here, I also am not fond of having to back-flip repeatedly due to a volt spamming their speed buff.

[beercritch]

I thought it was just me. AND there is another potential (and slightly connected) problem looming with the Power Donation augment which in time could kill off slownova builds completely.

What I dont like about volts boost is the completely arbitrary way its just appears regardless of what I am doing. If I have built for example a fast Valkyr melee build its quick around the map already. I probably already have berserker tripped and then volts speed boost trips up my rhythm and I end up falling off some platform or dash to far into too many mobs or some other uncontrollable effect. 

I see people are trying to hijack the thread by comparing other boosts and effects but to my knowledge nothing else effects other warframes in this way.

[Solarsyphon]

Seems like extremely fine tuning. Why not just ask for a buff eater mod or something that gives you energy or health but removes buffs.

[Fallen_Echo]

You cant just go and opt out from different mechanisms simply because they were not created that way. Think of it in the following sceniario:

You have a nyx tank build with the aggro shield mod. The nyx draws the aggro and you the guy who opted out of nyx absortion now have a free pass to murder everything without taking any damage since the nyx takes in shots while you can safely hide in the bubble without any worry of taking damage.

[Dabnician]

On 2018-10-12 at 10:52 PM, Spectre-8 said:

Form your own squad and set your rules , problem solved.

^This

And because of people not being able to basically do this i had to jump though all sorts of hoops to pop a level 30+ mobs riven with 0 damage to a defense target. i was thinking man it use to be cool when cataclysm Stopped bullets....

I literally had some limbo last night on xbox banishing me left and right in a mission, dodge right out like nothing and move on. dude doesnt have a clan i can see why.

Form a team, play solo or accept what happens in PUGs. This applies to literally every game from everquest to dayz to warframe to black ocean online.

Edited October 19, 2018 by Dabnician

[voltocitygel]

On 2018-10-18 at 3:49 AM, Thaylien said:

Myth. There are two abilities that are toggled on and allow energy absorb/regen (as opposed to orb pickup), but they are not Drain/Channelled abilities. The two in question are Desecrate for Nekros, which works as a per-target basis, and Artemis Bow, which works on a per-shot basis.

Any ability that costs you a Drain of energy over time cannot receive energy from external sources, only Orbs and the Rage mechanic.

Although... Speed is, and always has been, the primary offender because it 'changes player input', making it more difficult to use your regular muscle memory and map sense to travel when you're playing a frame that doesn't have these kinds of speed increases.

Spot fixing that one ability for now may, in fact, have a way to solve it. There's a particular form of tap/hold that's used on Nidus, where if you tap the ability it just happens, and if you hold it you can see the aim and area of effect of the cast. With a little modification the answer could be there, where a tap could activate it for Volt only, but a half-second hold would reveal a radius of the cast and it would then affect everyone in it.

A Volt that was just trying to sprint the mission, therefore, would be able to go do their own thing, while a team that wants the buff could get them to press for a half second longer and it would be an actual team buff on demand.

It could also allow for the buff duration to be longer, because it's a personal buff unless it's deliberately shared.

I'm glad you agree with my main point, even if I got a few details wrong.

And yeah, i checked up on channeled abilities, they were all changed. For some reason i was remembering the old versions for some of the frames i don't play as often.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

On 2018-10-14 at 5:17 AM, EDYinnit said:

Gara's vitrify has always lacked allied interference even when it was a duration-based impenetrable wall (as Frost's globe originally was).

Uh that's not true at all. I've bounced in odd ways off of the wall while bullet jumping. It's affected how I played, and then I remember that I know that I can wall jump on the mass vitrify and blame myself. 

 

Because that's the only person I have to blame for going in a public match, and for not adapting to what is in front of me. 

It's something that some people don't really get, it seems. 

[TheLexiConArtist]

On 2018-10-19 at 12:25 PM, Fallen_Echo said:

You cant just go and opt out from different mechanisms simply because they were not created that way. Think of it in the following sceniario:

You have a nyx tank build with the aggro shield mod. The nyx draws the aggro and you the guy who opted out of nyx absortion now have a free pass to murder everything without taking any damage since the nyx takes in shots while you can safely hide in the bubble without any worry of taking damage.

Have you perhaps noticed that plenty of collectible card games have revisions and a ton of rulings on edge-cases that just slipped consideration in the initial rule set and design?

Warframe is not Solitaire.

This is a living, updating game, not a printed set. Of course you could change the cards - the ill-fated change to a picked up Volt Speed, for example - but I'm asking more for a change on the ruling to avoid stepping on allied toes.

It's like Magic: The Gathering cards with wording such that you "may apply <effect>".  You don't have to if it would be unwanted. Take this card for example:

Whenever Academy Raider deals combat damage to a player, you may discard a card. If you do, draw a card.

You deal damage with the creature. This is Effect 1. We'll call this "gain attack speed from Volt's Speed ability".

You can discard a card to draw a new one. This is Effect 2. We'll call this "gain movement speed from Volt's Speed ability".

As you can clearly see, it's absolutely normal in a more complex card game to want Effect 1 with the option to not apply Effect 2 in situations where it would not serve the recipient's purpose.

MTG being usually 1v1, this card is in the frame of a self-inflicted effect. But you can extrapolate easily enough to how an effect that targets 'all allies' would also bear this permission to opt out in certain desired cases.

 

On 2018-10-19 at 4:26 PM, Dabnician said:

^This

And because of people not being able to basically do this i had to jump though all sorts of hoops to pop a level 30+ mobs riven with 0 damage to a defense target. i was thinking man it use to be cool when cataclysm Stopped bullets....

I literally had some limbo last night on xbox banishing me left and right in a mission, dodge right out like nothing and move on. dude doesnt have a clan i can see why.

Form a team, play solo or accept what happens in PUGs. This applies to literally every game from everquest to dayz to warframe to black ocean online.

I popped an identical riven last night. Vauban tossing out a few Bastilles per wave on Sechura (with energy regen courtesy of my Zenurik school) made it simple enough. Don't worry about bullets when it's Infested.

Your idealism still forms no concrete argument besides "no u". I can cite out things like being able to cancel a buff early, and especially the Neural Silencer item in World of Warcraft as examples of the desired ability to control what potentially unwanted interference random allies inflict on you.

You obviously were adversely affected by the mentioned Limbo player if that mission, among however many others, became memorable. You even checked his profile to validate your negative experience. Why then do you disagree with nipping these things in the bud?

 

On 2018-10-20 at 12:26 AM, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Uh that's not true at all. I've bounced in odd ways off of the wall while bullet jumping. It's affected how I played, and then I remember that I know that I can wall jump on the mass vitrify and blame myself. 

 

Because that's the only person I have to blame for going in a public match, and for not adapting to what is in front of me. 

It's something that some people don't really get, it seems. 

The context was in terms of shooting through the wall from either side, which to my knowledge has always been possible for Mass Vitrify. Bouncing off things oddly does just happen when parkouring in general sometimes; I've wall-hopped off my own sentinel or rescue targets before.

See also: being able to walk through an Atlas deployable instead of being entirely prevented from going into whatever corridor the player blocked off.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

53 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

The context was in terms of shooting through the wall from either side, which to my knowledge has always been possible for Mass Vitrify. Bouncing off things oddly does just happen when parkouring in general sometimes; I've wall-hopped off my own sentinel or rescue targets before.

See also: being able to walk through an Atlas deployable instead of being entirely prevented from going into whatever corridor the player blocked off.

The context is nice, but not actually in line with the content. The content was wrong and so I pointed it out for you. Now you're trying to shift the goal posts.

It's like the context of this thread is that others doing their thing makes the game unplayable, when the content of the thread and game shows that we just need to adapt to the conditions we find ourselves in. The thread has quite a few suggestions on how to adapt, like changing your play style or setting up a match that isn't public so you can keep your level of control as much as you want, maybe even having you find enough people who are cool with you trying to micromanage their play style. 

 

If you don't want to adapt, then that's fine but there's not much anyone can do to help you other than hand out "press here to win" buttons. Right now the closest substitute is the one with a vertical line in a circle that says "Power". 

 

Good luck with that, Tenno. 👍

Edited October 20, 2018 by (PS4)guzmantt1977

[Fallen_Echo]

On 2018-10-20 at 11:45 AM, EDYinnit said:

Have you perhaps noticed that plenty of collectible card games have revisions and a ton of rulings on edge-cases that just slipped consideration in the initial rule set and design?

Warframe is not Solitaire.

This is a living, updating game, not a printed set. Of course you could change the cards - the ill-fated change to a picked up Volt Speed, for example - but I'm asking more for a change on the ruling to avoid stepping on allied toes.

It's like Magic: The Gathering cards with wording such that you "may apply <effect>".  You don't have to if it would be unwanted. Take this card for example:

Whenever Academy Raider deals combat damage to a player, you may discard a card. If you do, draw a card.

You deal damage with the creature. This is Effect 1. We'll call this "gain attack speed from Volt's Speed ability".

You can discard a card to draw a new one. This is Effect 2. We'll call this "gain movement speed from Volt's Speed ability".

As you can clearly see, it's absolutely normal in a more complex card game to want Effect 1 with the option to not apply Effect 2 in situations where it would not serve the recipient's purpose.

MTG being usually 1v1, this card is in the frame of a self-inflicted effect. But you can extrapolate easily enough to how an effect that targets 'all allies' would also bear this permission to opt out in certain desired cases.

Meanwhile in yugioh yata-garasu is still banned because the cards wording cannot be changed and you cant add a rule to it what in turn makes it less broken.

Warframe in itself is more like yugioh, where wordings were created in a way to ensure nothing else can be promted out of a card than what it says exactly.

When a volt casts speed he is the one who decides if the buff should go on or not. "This effect may apply IF you want it".

The other players get the following ruling "You gain movement speed bonus IF volt wants it".

DE is not gonna change the way of the buffing because of two things:

1. This game is coop (or they think so), just communicate
2. Buffs are only dependant on the caster and not on allies (this is enforcing the first point)

You can only ask for one thing because you are currently going for the impossible which is to ask DE to make Volts speed buff either do something else or affect teammates differently.

[TheLexiConArtist]

 

On 2018-10-20 at 5:04 PM, Fallen_Echo said:

Meanwhile in yugioh yata-garasu is still banned because the cards wording cannot be changed and you cant add a rule to it what in turn makes it less broken.

Warframe in itself is more like yugioh, where wordings were created in a way to ensure nothing else can be promted out of a card than what it says exactly.

When a volt casts speed he is the one who decides if the buff should go on or not. "This effect may apply IF you want it".

The other players get the following ruling "You gain movement speed bonus IF volt wants it".

DE is not gonna change the way of the buffing because of two things:

1. This game is coop (or they think so), just communicate
2. Buffs are only dependant on the caster and not on allies (this is enforcing the first point)

You can only ask for one thing because you are currently going for the impossible which is to ask DE to make Volts speed buff either do something else or affect teammates differently.

I'm not exactly in the know of 'professional' tier play for Yu-Gi-Oh but as I understand it, there are still things that are restricted and banned due to their unreasonable impacts. Wording isn't often changed as much as rulings are made for MtG to deal with ambiguity and cases where the way two effects interact is not immediately obvious. "May" effect is not a wording change, but an identifier that you are invited rather than obligated to the effect.

But your comments aren't wrong in that the game operates currently such that one is beholden to their teammates.

The point of the thread is to debate whether one should be beholden to their (not necessarily vetted) teammates in such a way that can negatively impact the gameplay experience.

Additionally, since identifying a problem is less helpful by itself, I have suggested a strong resolution that does not negatively impact the people using the buff or wanting the buff in order to preserve and maximise the enjoyment of all points of view.

 

To analogise; you are failing to identify why stitching a wound is a bad idea just because it can be allowed to heal through existing means (with scarring).

Current resolutions are unreasonable (no public play) or inadequate (repeatedly performing mandatory cleansing actions) and therefore a superior option is being suggested.

[ikkabotz]

How would you veto the buff without really interrupting gameplay though?

[Fallen_Echo]

1 hour ago, EDYinnit said:

Additionally, since identifying a problem is less helpful by itself, I have suggested a strong resolution that does not negatively impact the people using the buff or wanting the buff in order to preserve and maximise the enjoyment of all points of view.

 

To analogise; you are failing to identify why stitching a wound is a bad idea just because it can be allowed to heal through existing means (with scarring).

Current resolutions are unreasonable (no public play) or inadequate (repeatedly performing mandatory cleansing actions) and therefore a superior option is being suggested.

But who should be the one who decide whenever you go with scarring or stiching, the doctor or the patient?

 

Dont get me wrong i know just how bad could be volt's speed buff but at the same time you cant really do anything.

You either go with the option what makes you immune to his buff or change the backflip madness into something reasonable. The later one is not an option because consoles have limited number of keys but introducing the first one would most surely cause more salt as people would ask for even more skills to be able to opt out to the level where you might aswell play solo.

Just for an example i frequently see limbo and his mechanics in these threads and it gets me thinking on just how the hell would DE turn this skill opt-out without breaking limbo OR there is harrow who depends on damage absorbed to get the crit buff IF people decide to opt out of that harrow users get upset because now you are the one who negatively affect their gameplay.

Everything falls back the failed coop promise of the game where in this case you supposedly tell the volt to not use speed and he doesnt use it.

[TheLexiConArtist]

On 2018-10-20 at 6:53 PM, ikkabotz said:

How would you veto the buff without really interrupting gameplay though?

In the simplest terms: Player has a setting menu associated. When the game attempts to apply an effect to player from an allied source, these settings are checked for conflicts. If detected, don't apply unwanted effect.

 

On 2018-10-20 at 7:53 PM, Fallen_Echo said:

But who should be the one who decide whenever you go with scarring or stiching, the doctor or the patient?

 

Dont get me wrong i know just how bad could be volt's speed buff but at the same time you cant really do anything.

You either go with the option what makes you immune to his buff or change the backflip madness into something reasonable. The later one is not an option because consoles have limited number of keys but introducing the first one would most surely cause more salt as people would ask for even more skills to be able to opt out to the level where you might aswell play solo.

Just for an example i frequently see limbo and his mechanics in these threads and it gets me thinking on just how the hell would DE turn this skill opt-out without breaking limbo OR there is harrow who depends on damage absorbed to get the crit buff IF people decide to opt out of that harrow users get upset because now you are the one who negatively affect their gameplay.

Everything falls back the failed coop promise of the game where in this case you supposedly tell the volt to not use speed and he doesnt use it.

The medical analogy is a bit of a mix in that regard. Recommendations can be given but it often falls on the patient's consent. So the patient (player) could choose to heal naturally (accept the buff and backflip as necessary), or they could choose to take the more potent option of stitching until healed better (the option of pre-emptive avoidance).

Limbo isn't broken by this any more than others; the Limbo's field control will always be felt by themselves in what they can and cannot attack/be attacked by (and stasis is still a universal CC option). Other players have the options of making use of both benefits and drawbacks of Rift-state immunities by subjecting themselves to Banishment/dash residue/Cataclysms or just avoiding the drawbacks at the cost of the benefits.

Is it really more co-operative to stoke the fire of personal differences in opinions by either forcing Volt to comply or Volt forcing others to comply, if an alternative solution could be provided that suits both sides at once? I believe not.

[Hyohakusha]

This was already addressed. Backflipping out of Volt's speed boost is DE's answer. A while back, they changed his 2 to drop a small coil/ spring that would add the buff to whoever picked it up. Many people, myself included, hated that. So they changed it to cancel out on a backflip.

Aiming, hitting back and tapping roll isn't difficult. It's not an interruption to the flow of gameplay. If you want to move forward with the backflip, turn around before you flip. You can always form your own squad if you don't want to play with Volt's. If you don't like forming a group, you can always play solo.

Arguing with people isn't going to accomplish anything, and neither is using overcomplicated sentences to try and push your point harder. Especially when it's something DE's already changed twice.

[UseNet]

1 hour ago, EDYinnit said:

(I want no influences from squadmates whatsoever)

I'm going to snip the rest of your comment and focus on this part. You have just stated you want no influences from teammates whatsoever. This is a teamplay based game, you can solo a lot but that doesn't change the fact that Warframe is a team game at its core.

So you hate Warframes core mechanic of teamplay and want it changed? Good luck with that. You can play solo, or you can play with teammates who are willing to let you be in control of their warframe choices. Good luck with that too.

[Fallen_Echo]

7 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

Other players have the options of making use of both benefits and drawbacks of Rift-state immunities by subjecting themselves to Banishment/dash residue/Cataclysms or just avoiding the drawbacks at the cost of the benefits.

That would require a selective programming where the enemies get you flagged as shootable target inside and outside the rift, while you also get flagged as someone who can shoot inside and outside of the rift.

It also needs the reprogramming of cataclysm bubbles wall to make sure when you are flagged enemies can shoot at you throught the bubble interdimensionally without damaging anything else interdimensionally and the same has to be done for you too.

Im not a programmer myself, but i modded some easy games to fit my needs by altering their setups and this change sounds like some nightmare to create.

7 hours ago, EDYinnit said:

Is it really more co-operative to stoke the fire of personal differences in opinions by either forcing Volt to comply or Volt forcing others to comply, if an alternative solution could be provided that suits both sides at once? I believe not.

But the problem with alternate solutions in itself can negatively impact others gameplay.

Volt is an easy target for this discussion because his skill hurts more than what positives it grants but we need to think globally.

Harrow as i said if he gets his buff vetoed, that negatively impacts the users gameplay.

Nyx mindcontrol can be opted out but that replicates the issue on revenant.

Revenants reave could be opted out what results in wasted energy.

Nidus and his paracistic link could be vetoed what results in losing p.strenght.

Mirage eclipse augment if vetoed equals with a wasted mod slot.

Mesas flash augment if vetoed is once again a wasted mod slot.

Mag bubbles when vetoed create some horribly unbalanced effects.

And soo on, i could probably list these for another 10 line but i gotta go work now.

 

[TheLexiConArtist]

On 2018-10-21 at 5:13 AM, Hyohakusha said:

This was already addressed. Backflipping out of Volt's speed boost is DE's answer. A while back, they changed his 2 to drop a small coil/ spring that would add the buff to whoever picked it up. Many people, myself included, hated that. So they changed it to cancel out on a backflip.

Aiming, hitting back and tapping roll isn't difficult. It's not an interruption to the flow of gameplay. If you want to move forward with the backflip, turn around before you flip. You can always form your own squad if you don't want to play with Volt's. If you don't like forming a group, you can always play solo.

Arguing with people isn't going to accomplish anything, and neither is using overcomplicated sentences to try and push your point harder. Especially when it's something DE's already changed twice.

The backflip preceded that particular change, yet I found that pickup mechanic to be better for me, yet still imperfect because the Volt could simply place it in an unavoidable location anyway.

Obviously, nobody wants to change what they're comfortable with, but that applies to both parties. The moment that buff is applied, it's causing an impact. It causes any in-progress parkour to carry more momentum. It forces the backflip, which is an additional consideration a player must address that would not be present without the buff being applied, therefore an interference on some level - no matter how little it may seem to those like yourself who do not feel the need to do so.

Please refrain from repeating the same empty comments that others have already brought as 'counterpoints'. It is wanting to be able to play with Volts that requires a better approach - and segregation (any limitation for publicly matchmade games) is not a valid solution either way.

I'm sorry that you find my sentences overcomplicated, but just look at the deliberate trollbait that happens when something can be deliberately interpreted wrong (or outright misquoted to assert a false claim). It's how I phrase when I have the time to think. I'm happy to clarify and provide examples if something is unclear.

 

20 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

That would require a selective programming where the enemies get you flagged as shootable target inside and outside the rift, while you also get flagged as someone who can shoot inside and outside of the rift.

It also needs the reprogramming of cataclysm bubbles wall to make sure when you are flagged enemies can shoot at you throught the bubble interdimensionally without damaging anything else interdimensionally and the same has to be done for you too.

Im not a programmer myself, but i modded some easy games to fit my needs by altering their setups and this change sounds like some nightmare to create.

But the problem with alternate solutions in itself can negatively impact others gameplay.

Volt is an easy target for this discussion because his skill hurts more than what positives it grants but we need to think globally.

Harrow as i said if he gets his buff vetoed, that negatively impacts the users gameplay.

Nyx mindcontrol can be opted out but that replicates the issue on revenant.

Revenants reave could be opted out what results in wasted energy.

Nidus and his paracistic link could be vetoed what results in losing p.strenght.

Mirage eclipse augment if vetoed equals with a wasted mod slot.

Mesas flash augment if vetoed is once again a wasted mod slot.

Mag bubbles when vetoed create some horribly unbalanced effects.

And soo on, i could probably list these for another 10 line but i gotta go work now.

 

Barring a little redundancy, this is a refreshing post trying to actually identify what caveats the suggestion might have/cause. Thanks.

That said: selective programming like what? A would-be HIT event is detected. Rift states are checked when deciding whether to move onto inflicting damage. It's one more line in the IF statement to reference something else - just like how a damaging ability can ignore the state of the Rift.

It's my opinion that you're overthinking the Rift mechanic. If it was half as involved as you seem to believe, then I imagine in all likelihood the game would barely function once a Cataclysm was out. Granted, I know as much as you about the raw code-behind DE has in place, but... I'd like to believe a core mechanic of a certain 'frame is not surviving in a horribly unoptimised state.

 

Regarding the rest:

In general, you can never expect in a public matchmade game that your allies will see gainful effects, or perform as you might expect from your abilities. You don't even have any guarantee the system will put someone in there at all, they could all be far beyond range, or they could be spawn AFKers.

As previously mentioned, Harrow players can only guarantee that damage absorbed themselves will contribute to Covenant. Squadmates could be off in corners, or otherwise not take a hit. This is no different to opting-out.

Nyx's mindcontrol is an enemy-effect and isn't covered by opting out of things that affect the state and stats of a player.

Reave - i'm assuming the granting of a Mesmer Skin charge to allies is the context - still allows you to perform its function against enemies. You might just have nobody in the path currently.

Nidus' link, again, still allows you to link to enemies, and Nidus would receive the strength of the allied link. The buff remains, but it's an effective 0% bonus on someone opted out for that stat.

Augments that extend stat-boosting effects to allies are of no use when the allies are not nearby either (or were never added to a mission by the system). That's just an implicit tradeoff of those augments, to provide the potential at the risk of that potential, yes, becoming wasted.

Mag bubbles and other attractors are probably the most hypothetical of all things I have suggested to be covered in this system. But a bad Mag (or just one unfortunately screwed by a teleporting enemy during the cast time) can make a miserable situation for everyone. It would be nice to avoid this. But remember: Gunblades and glaives are already bullets/projectiles that ignore Attractors. Perhaps these aren't the strongest weapon options, but they set a precedent.

 

Edited October 22, 2018 by EDYinnit

[Fallen_Echo]

51 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

It's my opinion that you're overthinking the Rift mechanic. If it was half as involved as you seem to believe, then I imagine in all likelihood the game would barely function once a Cataclysm was out. Granted, I know as much as you about the raw code-behind DE has in place, but... I'd like to believe a core mechanic of a certain 'frame is not surviving in a horribly unoptimised state.

I believe DE uses some horribly complicated system for the rift mechanic based on a bug what was active before his latest revork.

Long story short the rift mechanics were changed to work like the following:

1. Projectiles fired inside cataclysm could leave it and damage enemies outside of it but were unable to deal any damage to enemies inside the rift.
2. Hitscan weapons fired inside cataclysm were unable to leave the bubble but could damage everything inside it.
3. Projectile weapons from outside couldnt enter the rift bubble as the bubble acted like a wall.
4. Hitscan weapons from the outside could enter the rift bubble but couldnt deal any damage.
5. A player in the rift can damage enemies from the outside of the bubble with melee or projectile weapons when they were in the bubble but not with hitscan weapons.
6. Banished enemies could damage enemies from the inside of the bubble but projectiles were unable to deal damage to them.

This paints a pretty scary image of just how rules were set up to make the rift state work.

1 hour ago, EDYinnit said:

In general, you can never expect in a public matchmade game that your allies will see gainful effects, or perform as you might expect from your abilities. You don't even have any guarantee the system will put someone in there at all, they could all be far beyond range, or they could be spawn AFKers.

The problem here is the IF statement. As you stated the matchmake could not work at all and soo on but these problems arise when it works and you want to use up your skills on your teammates but they are vetoed your buffs.

1 hour ago, EDYinnit said:

But remember: Gunblades and glaives are already bullets/projectiles that ignore Attractors. Perhaps these aren't the strongest weapon options, but they set a precedent.

Im pretty sure this is a confirmed bug because i remember my glavies turning my bubbles into blenders.