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Please add bleedout to Arbitration Alerts


data54
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Just did my first AA and was surprised to see that once you take lethal damage you just flat out die, no go down to the ground to allow your teammate to help you, just dead.  When I first heard about Elite Alerts I imagined it was going to be something where you and your 3 other squad mates work together to survive as a team, the way it's currently set up is just going to turn it into bringing a tank frame for everything within a week.  I'm obviously not asking for the self revives to be in the gamemode since that would take away from the entire difficulty, just add the ability to rez your teammates while they're on the ground (maybe at half speed?) so there's some sort of teamwork involved in this mode other than making sure the ai defense target doesn't walk into a blender.  It might actually make the focus school for reviving more useful.

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I completely agree that in order to make it difficult there should only be a single life, but making it so the moment you take lethal damage you're just dead seems counter intuitive for a squad based game mode, unless you're planning on doing a super long run for bragging rights what's the point in going with a group and not just running solo? More people spawn more mobs, which makes it easier for you to die.  There are plenty of other ways they can add difficulty without excluding half the frame roster.  I just did another one of these alerts and my team comprised of myself (buffed hydroid), rhino, inaros, and a khora.  The way it's setup as it is now people are just going to start ignoring which frame is buffed for them if it doesn't fall into the tank category because even with 300% extra strength hydroid still dies just as easy unless you plan on spending half mission in a pool of water.

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Rezzing is just way too easy, though. Using space kid, you are completely invincible, so (even at half speed) there's no reason a team can't rez each other indefinitely, and a big piece of the challenge is gone.

It's not really teamwork for everyone to just YOLO around doing their own thing, but rezzing each other when they get downed. I would say it takes far more teamwork to work together to prevent teammates from taking lethal damage; like a Gara keeping Splinter Storm up on a squishy but high damage teammate.

There's no reason that you have to use the buffed frame. It's totally randomly generated, so that buffed frame might be completely inappropriate for the game mode.

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18 minutes ago, data54 said:

I completely agree that in order to make it difficult there should only be a single life, but making it so the moment you take lethal damage you're just dead seems counter intuitive for a squad based game mode, unless you're planning on doing a super long run for bragging rights what's the point in going with a group and not just running solo? More people spawn more mobs, which makes it easier for you to die.  There are plenty of other ways they can add difficulty without excluding half the frame roster.  I just did another one of these alerts and my team comprised of myself (buffed hydroid), rhino, inaros, and a khora.  The way it's setup as it is now people are just going to start ignoring which frame is buffed for them if it doesn't fall into the tank category because even with 300% extra strength hydroid still dies just as easy unless you plan on spending half mission in a pool of water.

While there are less enemies solo, you actually have much more survivability in a squad because all the enemies don't target one individual player. 

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6 minutes ago, Knowmad762 said:

Rezzing is just way too easy, though. Using space kid, you are completely invincible, so (even at half speed) there's no reason a team can't rez each other indefinitely, and a big piece of the challenge is gone.

It's not really teamwork for everyone to just YOLO around doing their own thing, but rezzing each other when they get downed. I would say it takes far more teamwork to work together to prevent teammates from taking lethal damage; like a Gara keeping Splinter Storm up on a squishy but high damage teammate.

There's no reason that you have to use the buffed frame. It's totally randomly generated, so that buffed frame might be completely inappropriate for the game mode.

I'm pretty sure the enemies can still kill you while you're in the space kid form, it just seems like when you transfer out you go to the bottom of their priority list when compared to other players nearby.  Maybe they could just up the starting level of enemies to compensate for the added survivability, or limit you to 3 knockdowns like other games do before instant death.

I was pretty excited to hear this game mode was coming out but as it currently sits I'll probably just do what I have to in order to get the mods and wait for fortuna.  I feel like this game mode could have been a lot of fun and challenging at the same time but instead they took the easy way out and just made it a time sink by doubling the amount of time you need to invest as well as hard nerfing your survivability into the ground, the combination of the two of them as well as the fact that other than a few mods that you can buy off a trader in a week for 20p the reward table is just endo (which most endgame players don't need much of) just turns it into something that's more of a chore and less of a challenging mode you and your friends can play for fun.

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I see your point here. There's no point in me taking a 300% buffed Mag or Ember when I know that the first Corpus Tech that's protected by an Arbitration drone will instagib me. May as well take Inaros or Rhino, take a few secs longer to kill mobs, but be basically immortal. 

If they put even a shortened bleed out timer it would encourage team work instead of a team comprised of individual tank frames. It would make you stay with others if your glass cannon was likely to die. Without revives it's pretty much every player for themselves.

We ran an hour+ last night with Inaros, Khora, Saryn, & Nekros. We camped a good room and had no trouble until we decided to leave. The Saryn was popped almost immediately when they left Khoras dome. . 

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57 minutes ago, Knowmad762 said:

It's not really teamwork for everyone to just YOLO around doing their own thing, but rezzing each other when they get downed. I would say it takes far more teamwork to work together to prevent teammates from taking lethal damage

This. If we can easily have revive options then this would trivialize the purpose of this game mode. The game was already impossible to fail outside of sortie spy and now you finally have to be aware of your surrounding and use all your techniques to get through safely.

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40 minutes ago, MechaKnight said:

Since bleedout is in the name of the thread, what do players think about Defection targets not having a bleedout phase?

Removing the defection Elite Alert would fix that problem so please DE that game mode is very unpopular can you drop it from the Elite Alert mission table?

I have no issue with the lack of a bleedout timer, it makes the missions more exciting as the fear of death is very real. Although data54 has a point about frame choices. The ease of death makes me less likely to take an Ember regardless of her getting the 300% buff unless I am in a group that has a defensive frame like Frost to protect her and there is no chance I am taking Vauban no matter what the buffs are.

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Git gud, lad. The point of this new mode is so that people have it hard. DE stated during the update that the failure rate for missions is incredibly low, a bit over 2%. Dodge better, learn to move, coordinate. But most people are doing just fine, just keep practicing.

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Il y a 2 heures, Myrkrvaldyr a dit :

Git gud, lad. The point of this new mode is so that people have it hard. DE stated during the update that the failure rate for missions is incredibly low, a bit over 2%. Dodge better, learn to move, coordinate. But most people are doing just fine, just keep practicing.

you people dont realize the OP point, its not about "git gud" there is a point in the game , where 2/3 of the warframes will die from a single stray bullet and there is nothing you can do about it past certain points but avoid or cheese if we have no bleedouts of any kind, sure you elitists tryhards will come again and say "git gud" while your run around with your nidus/inaros/trinity, upload a video of you lasting 1 hour with a non tank frame and then come and say "git gud".

bleedouts are neccesary for this mode, you will all eventually realize with time and so will DE, no regular bleedouts of course but something that at least gives the chance for yout team to help you, there are a lot of ways to go about it other than "git gud", a x set timer bleedout that can only be channeled while in warframe would solve this, and then instead of worrying what corner of the map youll cheese,  you play what you like with whoever you like, and then you can actually "git gud" with x warframe and x loadout, instead of feeling like you "got gud" because that youtube cheese build and you sat 20 mins in a corner. cheese will always find its way in this game of course, but id rather have cheese be an alternative and not feel like its either cheese it or risk it.

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21 hours ago, data54 said:

Just did my first AA and was surprised to see that once you take lethal damage you just flat out die, no go down to the ground to allow your teammate to help you, just dead.  When I first heard about Elite Alerts I imagined it was going to be something where you and your 3 other squad mates work together to survive as a team, the way it's currently set up is just going to turn it into bringing a tank frame for everything within a week.  I'm obviously not asking for the self revives to be in the gamemode since that would take away from the entire difficulty, just add the ability to rez your teammates while they're on the ground (maybe at half speed?) so there's some sort of teamwork involved in this mode other than making sure the ai defense target doesn't walk into a blender.  It might actually make the focus school for reviving more useful.

+1 for the teamplay perspective.

While I don't care if I live or die, and in a random group to be fair it can be very entertaining. However the moment that we organized a group with just friends this is what happened : my friend died, we all aborted automaticly. We didn't even think about it just automaticly we all left to start it again. If you go with your mates there is zero meaning to continue if somebody dies if anything it makes you sad. Not having autorivive but still having bleedout would be a nice addition to promote teamplay. You could even spice it up by taking longer to revive as the OP said and definitely you should get rid of being able to revive in void mode.

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22 hours ago, geo223 said:

the whole point of the arbitrations are for there no be no revives for anything

 

The whole point of arbitration is to provide "challanging" gameplay for people who already has everything in the game but no mean to play with it without having to OP mode 90 minutes of endless missions. One death seemed nice on paper but without a bleedout it can take away from the experience. I personally did not die yet in an elite alert but I still can see the problem with no bleedout :

1. random deaths that you cannot see coming so cannot avoid (where is the challange with possible rng/bug related deaths)

2. not being able to really truly teamplay (see my post above)

I do think that 1 life  with a bleedout time that could be even shorter than usual, or being locked in revive animation longer would add to the gamemode.

Edited by Nirrel
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Personally im fine with how they are currently.  All i wish though is to see what kills me since at higher levels i can get a random sapping osprey float up silently behind me and pop me with a mine,  or what normally kills me..  A teleporting flame blade grineer i hadnt seen.  Buy usually the cut to grey happens so fast i have no idea how it happened in this. At least with bleedout you can see the enemies around your self

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As one who mainlines Valk/prime and never worries about being ohk'd, really disappointed that there is no bleedout. I expected a shortened timer, maybe 3-4sec base, bleedout mods scaled down to a max of maybe 6sec to keep the paperframes close. However, with no timer, its just every man for themselves and if my teammate isn't playing 1 of like 3-4 frames (or their primes) it's gg for them once things even approach difficult.

Edit: The above is even more annoying when a paperframe is hosting and drops in the middle of a fire fight and host migration allows another 1-2 mates to be gunned down before they can react.

Edited by DarcnyssWolfe
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il y a 26 minutes, MrJxt a dit :

No, it's still easy with all the tools available. No revive is basically a sortie condition, you bring a setup to work around it.

yeah, you bring a setup to work around what? a whole mode? S#&$ thats awesome thinking, sorties change with every mission, arbitrations dont, so youre essentially sugesting to take the tankiest frames or anything that wont need to worry about getting downed, thats the easiest setup to wrk around it and trust me your advice its not required as everyone is going to be bringing a "setup to work around it" which essentially means anything tanky.

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hace 23 horas, Lisztomaniac dijo:

where 2/3 of the warframes will die from a single stray bullet and there is nothing you can do about it past certain points but avoid or cheese if we have no bleedouts of any kind

It seems to me that this kind of argument is the one most people bring forward. Bleedout is a bandaid. I actually felt like the whole revives thing was to alleviate the extreme enemy damage and AI that sometimes is unfair, and I think it's DE avoiding the problem rather than fixing it with this system.

I love no bleedout nor revives. Any problem that comes after it should be solved with gameplay changes. A good player should be able to survive with any frame. If this is already possible, then we don't need bleedout/revives.

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Personally I'm ok with 1 life and no bleedout. Teamplay aspect of arbitrations is sticking together, using warframe abilities instead of randomly spamming them, pay attention to your team may it be a random or premade; anyway that's just me and I failed plenty of arbitrations I'm not a player that has "got gud" yet. My man beef with arbitrations is same as any other endless missions: host migration & host selection which messes everything up pretty much and there's no possible fix for that. Of course the enemies that spawn inside texture and casually teleport here and there are not worth mention. The new content piles on a crooked base hence wonky at best.

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My problem is that between lag and janky mechanics is possible to just die for no apparent reason.

I mean, if I am in a group of enemies and I die, I can say "Ok, that was stupid. I shouldn't do that again."

But when I just randomly die out of nowhere, I am just left looking at the screen going "What? What happened? What did I do wrong?", and there is no way to learn from a mistake that wasn't yours to begin with.

So until DE somehow manages to prevent this sort of thing from happening, I'm probably just going to ignore this update and stop playing again.

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17 hours ago, moostar95 said:

 Or a inaros!

This is exactly the point I was trying to make with this thread, Nidus/Inaros are fun to play, but it feels like if you want to last any sort of extended length you need to bring a frame that cheeses death/damage.  I did one run the other day as a Mag with the +300% strength and it was quite fun, but after a certain point I basically just cowered inside a Frost snow globe and when I finally popped out to grab some drops my 1600 overshield got chewed through in a few seconds. They can up the enemy scaling speed and add a single bleedout back and it would probably be even more challenging, even if you were running with a limbo they can't rez 3 people at once so you're going to die eventually.

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