Cautious Shot is absolutely terrible, please buff it

[chofranc]

I'm an Ogris main and this mod seems awful IMO, it doesn't have any real value in almost 99.9% of the cases and it came with a drawback(that damage reduction), is like a worst version of Powerthrow but for explosive weapons.

[Robolaser]

This mod is obviously (edit: should be) for beginners, using explosive weapons at 10% of their potential, fighting beginner level enemies against which those 10% are enough.

If you need your weapon to deal insane area damage, and have spent a lot of time, formas, endo, kuva and maybe even platinum for that, you're probably not a beginner anymore, and don't need training wheels.

 

Edited October 14, 2018 by Robolaser

[chofranc]

hace 13 minutos, Robolaser dijo:

This mod is obviously for beginners, using explosive weapons at 10% of their potential, fighting beginner level enemies against which those 10% are enough.

If you need your weapon to deal insane area damage, and have spent a lot of time, formas, endo, kuva and maybe even platinum for that, you're probably not a beginner anymore, and don't need training wheels.

 

The problem is that this mod require a lot of effort to get it, it requires you to be an advanced player at difference of other "training wheels" mods and because of that, it should be aimed to be something more than a "training wheels" mod.

[Robolaser]

il y a 23 minutes, chofranc a dit :

The problem is that this mod require a lot of effort to get it, it requires you to be an advanced player at difference of other "training wheels" mods and because of that, it should be aimed to be something more than a "training wheels" mod.

Yeah i was about to edit my post when you replied.

IMO It should be a common mod and obtainable in beginner friendly levels. As i said above, experienced players don't really need self damage reduction anyway.

Edited October 14, 2018 by Robolaser

[Drasiel]

4 hours ago, Futurehero said:

Which brings my point about the 8 m AOE Staticor with 0 self-damage.....or the Lenz for that matter, all the more relevant.

There already ARE weapons in this game that bypass this problem.

Here's a 12-capacity, 10 level mod that's supposed to alleviate these issues, and it does not.

 

How is the Lenz relevant? it is very common for lenz users to k-o themselves even with the blast Ring and and time between explosions. 

[Maicael]

6 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

How about changing how this mod works fundamentally?

Instead of full self-damage protection the mod now only deals damage to you equal to the max percentage of health damage you could deal to the enemies in the current round.

So for example if your ogris build at best oneshots an enemy at round 15 you get oneshotted if you shoot too close, IF your ogris only deals 30% total health damage at round 50 you only take max 30% total health damage.

I'd say this suggestion is pretty close, but I'd get rid of the enemy dependency completely.

Just make it to where equipping the mod guarantees you won't one-shot yourself, but still does significant damage (taking multishot into account however), and upgrading the mod reduces the %damage of your total health lost.

[(PSN)solartorch81]

I have been having a lot of fun with Revenant and self damage weapon. The self damage reduce your health to 2 but do not reduce your Mesmer Skin stack.

[ArcKnight9202]

If they insist on keeping self damage, they should make it a flat number or percentage of total current health. I'd rather they do away with it entirely, though. You have things like the Ignis, Amprex, and Arca Plasmor that can wipe out swaths of enemies without breaking a sweat.

I understand the theme, but the implementation and wonky scaling in this game(between players and enemies) totally ruins it.

[Lholland]

It isn’t completely useless. If your shot deals 30,000 damage, you’ll take around 3000 damage.  After your armor reduces the damage taken, you might only take around 500 damage.  On a frame like Inaros, Rhino, Nidus, or Valkyr, it could be the difference between losing a valuable life or taking a little bit of damage.

 

It’s very situational, but not necessarily useless.  I’m not saying that I would want to give up a mod slot for it, but it would work well for some weirder, quirkier builds.

Edited October 14, 2018 by Lholland

[Fallen_Echo]

6 hours ago, Maicael said:

I'd say this suggestion is pretty close, but I'd get rid of the enemy dependency completely.

Just make it to where equipping the mod guarantees you won't one-shot yourself, but still does significant damage (taking multishot into account however), and upgrading the mod reduces the %damage of your total health lost.

I put in the enemy dependancy to make sure that the risk VS reward always matches.

[Fallen_Echo]

2 hours ago, Lholland said:

It isn’t completely useless. If your shot deals 30,000 damage, you’ll take around 3000 damage.  After your armor reduces the damage taken, you might only take around 500 damage.  On a frame like Inaros, Rhino, Nidus, or Valkyr, it could be the difference between losing a valuable life or taking a little bit of damage.

 

It’s very situational, but not necessarily useless.  I’m not saying that I would want to give up a mod slot for it, but it would work well for some weirder, quirkier builds.

I might be wrong here but theres two problems with what you said:

First of all we all have ferrite armor meaning that in your example if that shot contains corrosive damage that gets increased by 75% for puncture and toxin its +25%.

Valkyr Prime has the highest base armor reduction and she is the only one who can reach 90% reduction with 1963 armor (arcanes not included) also even at 3000 armor your frame is still at 91% damage reduction.

In the end if your weapon dealt 300 damage to you and if its 50% blast and 50% corrosive you got hit by 375 damage. Its not much really but for this you had to use valkyr prime to survive.

Chroma Prime with 3 armor mods stops at 1192 armor and has approx 80% damage reduction. Nidus with 991 stops at approx 75% damage reduction.

 

Inaros the hp tank stops at 561 armor what gets you approx 60% damage reduction. Everybody under him rapidly falls down because you will take 1800 damage from your example and the damage type effectiveness is not in the calculation yet.

 

I say this mod is barely useable somewhere around the level of the warm coat.

[OvisCaedo]

2 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

I might be wrong here but theres two problems with what you said:

First of all we all have ferrite armor meaning that in your example if that shot contains corrosive damage that gets increased by 75% for puncture and toxin its +25%.

addendum: not only do armor types beneficial against armor get a bonus (such as 75% for corrosive, if it's being used), they also ignore the same percentage of effective armor for their damage calculation. so if you have corrosive on your weapon it is actually MUCH more deadly for self damage than you are calculating. which uh, kinda proves the point harder.

Edited October 14, 2018 by OvisCaedo

[Fallen_Echo]

Just now, OvisCaedo said:

addendum: not only do armor types beneficial against armor get a bonus (such as 75% for corrosive, if it's being used), they also ignore the same percentage of effective armor for their damage calculation.

Now i didnt knowed that, its even worse.

[OvisCaedo]

1 minute ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Now i didnt knowed that, its even worse.

well, on the flip side for NON corrosive explosions, the inverse is also true; not only does blast damage get a -25% reduction in damage to ferrite armor, it also increases your effective armor for the damage calculation by 25%.

[_Vortus_]

13 hours ago, Futurehero said:

Which brings my point about the 8 m AOE Staticor with 0 self-damage.....or the Lenz for that matter, all the more relevant.

There already ARE weapons in this game that bypass this problem.

Here's a 12-capacity, 10 level mod that's supposed to alleviate these issues, and it does not.

 

Thought Lenz has self damage.   Not used it since it came out so cannot remember.  Sounds like Staticors charged shot needs self damage added.   The weapons doing larger aoe all should do self damage.

I am unsure if the mod works or not.  I mean someone using a build with hardly any added health/shields/armor and thinks 90% reduction will save them from a high power aoe blast needs to look at the numbers.  I mean, if the remaining 10% damage exceeds their health pool, they will still die or be close to death.  

[KochDerFrettchen]

20 hours ago, _Vortus_ said:

No mention of frame builds yet.    Thing is, a low health/shield/armor frame is still likely dead even with the mod.   Why?   Your own weapon builds show why.   No different than getting hit by a really high level enemy with normal damage reduction.   This mod isnt supposed to make launchers act like the early no self damage tonkor imo.   Not saying play only tanky frames.  But if you are running low health/shield/armor frames with no or minimal survive-abilty mods then even 90% cannot save you.

I am asking as I am genuinely interested.   I do not have the mod yet, and I love using the Kulstar.   Not sure if anything has a bigger blast area than that.  

 

17 hours ago, Edarin said:

How about git gud and don't hit yourself with the self damage weapons. 

As a passionate about self damage weapons that mod is unnecessary for them to begin with. 

If you can't aim with a weapon just don't use it LOL

amirite? 

Edit: If you still can't aim and you want to be able to use a self damage weapon, go ahead and pick nidus, get some stacks and ez katka

If this sentiment has any relation to DE's design philosophy, why would they have made the mod in the first place?...

20 hours ago, _Vortus_ said:

No mention of frame builds yet.    Thing is, a low health/shield/armor frame is still likely dead even with the mod.   Why?   Your own weapon builds show why.   No different than getting hit by a really high level enemy with normal damage reduction.   This mod isnt supposed to make launchers act like the early no self damage tonkor imo.   Not saying play only tanky frames.  But if you are running low health/shield/armor frames with no or minimal survive-abilty mods then even 90% cannot save you.

I am asking as I am genuinely interested.   I do not have the mod yet, and I love using the Kulstar.   Not sure if anything has a bigger blast area than that.  

Taking out the four tankiest frames in the game does not leave you with only "low health/shield/armor" frames.  Inaros, Trinity, Rhino and Nidus with buffs up already don't care about damage, they're not... useful for determining how dangerous damage is, unless it also kills them.

[Xaxma]

22 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

How about changing how this mod works fundamentally?

Instead of full self-damage protection the mod now only deals damage to you equal to the max percentage of health damage you could deal to the enemies in the current round.

So for example if your ogris build at best oneshots an enemy at round 15 you get oneshotted if you shoot too close, IF your ogris only deals 30% total health damage at round 50 you only take max 30% total health damage.

Or it can just not damage you at all ...

[Fallen_Echo]

8 minutes ago, Xaxma said:

Or it can just not damage you at all ...

That would be the best but knowing DE it will take them atleast 1 more year to realize that self-damage just doesnt fit into this game.

[Thundervision]

Mechanics-wise: at the mechanics core I'd say that self-damage should stay (and for God's sakes apply to enemies too, no more Bombards and Napalms shooting at their feet), but instead of inflicting a sheit ton of damage to user it should only deal a %-of your max health. Say, you have 100HP and you're using Ogris, normally it would kill you if you happened to shoot at your feet or object in front of you, but now it will just take off 25% of your 100HP which is also 25HP (that's, of course, without Shields which would also help you).

No more accidental one-shots when your Artificial Imbecile ally steps in as long as you have enough Health/Shields to survive the blast. And if you dare to claim «safety is for pussies» proceeding to risk your own WF life by using explosive weapons in close quarters with 20HP left. Well, you took your chances ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

Now, Mod-wise: an absolute bandaid mod that offers nothing but player's deception. The mod may actually force players to reduce the weapon's damage in order to make it work, or apply extra bandaid mods. 10% off fully-modded explosive weapons's damage is still going to kill you. Applying no self-oneshot thing will still be a lame bandaid feature which can't be used on every capable of inflicting self-damage weapon:

 

A few examples for possible mod changes:

1. Reduced self-damage distance: 5m away -- gonna hurt, 10m away -- you're safe. Doesn't affect the blast range when you hit an enemy, you're already paying with reduced damage anyway.
2. The explosion won't happen as long as players stays within self-damage range.
3. Risky Shot: grants 500% more damage at the cost of increasing received damage by 30% for 3 seconds (bonus damage sounds insane, yeah, and so does the extra damage an enemy will inflict if you keep refreshing those 3s)

[Robolaser]

il y a 50 minutes, Xaxma a dit :

Or it can just not damage you at all ...

Or you could also not shoot things at point blank with explosives...

 

[_Vortus_]

7 hours ago, KochDerFrettchen said:

 

If this sentiment has any relation to DE's design philosophy, why would they have made the mod in the first place?...

Taking out the four tankiest frames in the game does not leave you with only "low health/shield/armor" frames.  Inaros, Trinity, Rhino and Nidus with buffs up already don't care about damage, they're not... useful for determining how dangerous damage is, unless it also kills them.

Which is why I wanted to see builds.  For the reasons I mentioned in your quote of me.   If the remaining 10% damage exceeds the frames health, its over, better to have not used the mod..   If the remaining 10% damage does not exceed the frames health, then its a useful mod.

[EvilEyeBalor]

I was really excited about this mod, till I was the few weapons this could be used on. I really wanted to use this with my Concealed Explosives Hikou because I kill myself often with them. Taking only 10% of the damage would be fine for the weapon but it is not usable on anything but select rifles. If I wanted to run Thunderbolt Cernos Prime I would also want to run Cautious Shot. I would really like to see this mod usable on all weapons, even if it seems like it would not be applicable.

In terms of greater balance, I think this mod would only be useful on the weapons that it's currently applicable on if it were 100% immune to self damage. I guess I am just very disappointed overall (especially for the endo) with this mod, it's not very usable on what's it's intended to be used on, and it is not available for the weapons that I want to use it on.

[Alienami]

I have been using explosive weapons in Warframe for as long as they existed in the game... my favorites being Lenz and Phantasma.

 

So, here is where a lot of you are wrong...

 

Lag spikes due to non-dedicated servers that  can mismatch locations of entities, random movements by teammates and the always common suddenly Kavat/Kubrow in your shot because they used an ability or ran at an enemy or returned to your side, et cetera,  et cetera...

In such an environment "g3t g00d" logical fallacy mentality doesn't and cannot apply unless you're able to predict the unpredictable nature of:

...the server,  ...your internet connection, ...the battlefield / future movements of every friend and foe on and off screen...especially if people can literally teleport or zoom past you in some way from anywhere in a line of sight...

 

And if you're somehow a person who poses tremendous luck or godlike forsight... well, congratulations on being you; a unique individual with supernatural powers or talent in a sea of average people who are not you...who statistically, rest around the middle of the Bell Curve.

 

So, to summarize...This mod is bad; doesn't fit the intent of its design, and outside already tanky or immortal frames and/or low damage weapons people don't like as much...it fails to do its job of making the user any safer other than maybe in their imagination.

 

Hopefully the developers take note and make changes, because I do love to blow crap up in the game but don't always have the best luck or super human skills of a gamer god and would like to use this in Arbitration mode where its presumed to be aimed at primarily being used.

[_Vortus_]

On 2018-10-14 at 11:33 AM, KochDerFrettchen said:

 

If this sentiment has any relation to DE's design philosophy, why would they have made the mod in the first place?...

Taking out the four tankiest frames in the game does not leave you with only "low health/shield/armor" frames.  Inaros, Trinity, Rhino and Nidus with buffs up already don't care about damage, they're not... useful for determining how dangerous damage is, unless it also kills them.

A: Still didn't answer my question.

B: Pretty sure I didn't mention any specific frames.

C:Read quote below again

On 2018-10-14 at 7:28 PM, _Vortus_ said:

Which is why I wanted to see builds.  For the reasons I mentioned in your quote of me.   If the remaining 10% damage exceeds the frames health, its over, better to have not used the mod..   If the remaining 10% damage does not exceed the frames health, then its a useful mod.

D:Please note again, no specific frame mentioned.  Then the content of the above quote itself.

And lastly, still interested since I don't have the mod.

 

[(PSN)teacup775]

from a player who had lenz as top primary (and yes i died eary on in use): geeze guys, learn where to shoot with the things.

These weapons add a tiny bit of challenge to the game as well as fun.