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Pizzarugi

Revenant's Thralls Still Need Ally Damage Immunity

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I've already made this thread before which later got added to the megathread, but that's since been buried and now it's no longer stickied.

Revenant's Thralls are next to worthless outside of solo play, because teammates can kill them. What good is the enthrallment propagating if the first victim doesn't get to live long enough to attack another enemy? What's the point of giving Reave a huge heal bonus if the thralls you need are dead before you can hit them with it? What good is the overshields buff if a teammate murders them before your Danse Macabre can?

The thralls need to be made immune to damage from your teammates (any they receive only applies when their enthrallment wears off, like Nyx's Mind Control), but are free game to you in order to make use of your kit's synergy.

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I'm somewhat guilty of this. During gameplay I tend to shoot whatever's moving that's not a warframe. It takes me a bit too long to notice the additional objects attached to the enemy, so about half the time I headshot it before it has a chance to work for our team.

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but nyx can do that.
revenant thralls is more like a decoy. 
the purpose to is to aggro enemies fire.
it is used to distract enemies from attacking the defense objective.
nekros shadow clone is better for that if you want to use it to damage other enemies since the stats scale with nekros power strength.

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1 minute ago, HEA-Devazone said:

revenant thralls is more like a decoy. 
the purpose to is to aggro enemies fire.

Again, what good are they if you have teammates who kill them as soon as you get them? It's hard to treat them as decoys if they're killed by teammates as quickly as they're enthralled.

That's the point I'm making. 😛

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After years of dealing with allies as an Inaros, if Inaros doesn't get it then Revenant shouldn't have it.

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31 minutes ago, Vitamin.Ex said:

After years of dealing with allies as an Inaros, if Inaros doesn't get it then Revenant shouldn't have it.

What are you talking about? According to the wiki, Sand Shadows are friendly, which I assume means  they're not subject to friendly fire.

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4 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

What are you talking about? According to the wiki, Sand Shadows are friendly, which I assume means  they're not subject to friendly fire.

Scarab Swarm. When Inaros tries to heal his teammates by putting it on a swarm of enemies, allies tend to just destroy the enemies thus rendering the heal useless

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1 minute ago, Pizzarugi said:

What are you talking about? According to the wiki, Sand Shadows are friendly, which I assume means  they're not subject to friendly fire.

I'm talking about his #2 / #4 which is basically the same thing. If Inaros uses his #4 to trap a group of enemies they instantly get slaughtered by allies. It's useless in groups because everyone wants to kill things as fast as possible and they don't stop to think of the heals it gives the team or the CC it provides. It's exaclty what you're saying about Revenant and how you can't MC enemies without your allies slaughtering them. The same can also be applied to Nidus and Vauban. A lot of frames deal with this and there is no need to cater to Revenant.

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1 minute ago, EchoesOfRain said:

Scarab Swarm. When Inaros tries to heal his teammates by putting it on a swarm of enemies, allies tend to just destroy the enemies thus rendering the heal useless

This person gets it. Take your upvote and do good things with it :)

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4 hours ago, Vitamin.Ex said:

After years of dealing with allies as an Inaros, if Inaros doesn't get it then Revenant shouldn't have it.

Can allies actually hurt the sand minion? Never knew that. Either way it’s kind of an irrelevant feature imo.

Edit: nvm read the replies

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5 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

Revenant's Thralls are next to worthless outside of solo play, because teammates can kill them. What good is the enthrallment propagating if the first victim doesn't get to live long enough to attack another enemy? What good is the overshields buff if a teammate murders them before your Danse Macabre can?

Dunno, why are you thralling an enemy I can kill by accident? You don't need the aggro if the enemies are mobs, and if they're dangerous enemies it's critical they die before the enthrall effect drops. Either way, I'm gonna kill them, that's what I'm here for. 

Invulnerable mobs would have to stack damage like Nyx's (and then: what's the point of Nyx) as otherwise you have a bombard suddenly waking up in the middle of your squad with full health.

A better fix would be to add something to the pillar enthralled enemies leave behind when killed. Maybe make it aggro, lure and enthrall too.

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I think the people against this are missing part of the bonus of enthralled enemies: the buffs.

I was doing a high level infested survival for a while, pub.  They even managed to mostly camp.  I kept on enthralling one ancient healer for the DR, I tagged it ally with my way point.  People kept murdering it.

The way I see it, Enthrall needs a way to hold damage so when it wears off they drop dead, and they need a way to be cancelled.

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simplest solution would be to just make them immune to FF. dont know why DE keeps dancing around this. all pets are immune to FF. sand shadows, shadows of the dead, sentinels, kubrows, kavats, even mind control enemy. why is it that revenant is the only one to not have this function.

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10 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

simplest solution would be to just make them immune to FF. dont know why DE keeps dancing around this. all pets are immune to FF. sand shadows, shadows of the dead, sentinels, kubrows, kavats, even mind control enemy. why is it that revenant is the only one to not have this function.

If they were invincible they would never create the energy pillars. They are supposed to die!

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15 minutes ago, Vitamin.Ex said:

If they were invincible they would never create the energy pillars. They are supposed to die!

i said immune to FF did i need to be more clear? immune to ally fire. they can make them immune to FF and still have them where you can kill them.

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2 hours ago, Vitamin.Ex said:

If they were invincible they would never create the energy pillars. They are supposed to die!

What's wrong with keeping them immune to damage from other teammates, but they're free game to the caster who enthralled them? Revenant has Danse Macabre, and it was intentionally designed to synchronize with his thralls, by killing them in order to provide overshield drops. His Reave was also designed to work with it, by giving him increased health and shield drain when passing through them.

On top of that, who's to say you can't combine ally damage immunity with existing minion mechanics of causing all friendly fire damage once the effect wears off? Why can't we have that, and still cause enthralled enemies to create pillars on death?

And if the only reason you want thralls is to create energy pillars, than DE failed in designing the skill. Again, two of his abilities are supposed to get bonuses from interacting with thralls, and the ability itself is supposed to be able to propagate to other enemies. None of these can happen if you have allies who kill them as soon as they're enthralled. They're more than just energy-pillars-to-be, but that's all they've been reduced to in their current state.

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I Do not agree with this

Revenant 1 ability is more focused on making them your "drinks", you suck health from them, you take their fire away,

Plus, if he gets thralls to have immunity, revenant players will troll by thralling enemies that are needed to be killed.

But something I could agree and want is to have revenant thrall limit to 12 instead of 7

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7 hours ago, Bombarder0 said:

I Do not agree with this

Revenant 1 ability is more focused on making them your "drinks", you suck health from them, you take their fire away,

Plus, if he gets thralls to have immunity, revenant players will troll by thralling enemies that are needed to be killed.

But something I could agree and want is to have revenant thrall limit to 12 instead of 7

you cant do any of that since they are dead before you activate reave or DM.

trolling can easily be averted by thralls not counting towards end of wave. this is only an issue on defense.

the whole purpose of making them immune to FF is so you can activate its synergy without interference which is enthralls one and only problem currently.

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As annoying as it is to have your thralls killed especially if they were useful the ability is still okay in my book. The way it is now you are stealing active enemies. Nyx can only do that to 1 and Nekros is just recreating what already died. This ability allows for some really high level utility.

Once the enemies reach the level where they don't die immediately, Enthrall's usefulness really goes up. You take tough enemies out of play which then take other enemies out of play and now you can kill them without retaliation. 

Did I mention you can use this on Stalker to basically end him?

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4 hours ago, (PS4)Double991 said:

As annoying as it is to have your thralls killed especially if they were useful the ability is still okay in my book. The way it is now you are stealing active enemies. Nyx can only do that to 1 and Nekros is just recreating what already died. This ability allows for some really high level utility.

Once the enemies reach the level where they don't die immediately, Enthrall's usefulness really goes up. You take tough enemies out of play which then take other enemies out of play and now you can kill them without retaliation. 

Did I mention you can use this on Stalker to basically end him?

I'm going to stick to a similar point I use whenever I suggest an OP frame should get nerfed: DE is hekbent on keeping everything in the star chart. The only missions that are at or really close to level 100 are sorties and kuva floods, both of which are time restricted every 24 hours and 1 hour respectively. Everything else except Arbitrations start at level 60 or less. I think it's unreasonable to believe that the only time Revenant should be allowed to have any minions that will live for at least a second before getting slaughtered by a teammate, is when the enemy level goes above and beyond what you'll mostly be fighting on the star chart.

Also, I wouldn't bank on using Enthrall on Stalker forever. Sooner or later, DE is gonna disable that capability. There's no way that's not a bug or design oversight. 😛

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16 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

I'm going to stick to a similar point I use whenever I suggest an OP frame should get nerfed: DE is hekbent on keeping everything in the star chart. The only missions that are at or really close to level 100 are sorties and kuva floods, both of which are time restricted every 24 hours and 1 hour respectively. Everything else except Arbitrations start at level 60 or less. I think it's unreasonable to believe that the only time Revenant should be allowed to have any minions that will live for at least a second before getting slaughtered by a teammate, is when the enemy level goes above and beyond what you'll mostly be fighting on the star chart.

Also, I wouldn't bank on using Enthrall on Stalker forever. Sooner or later, DE is gonna disable that capability. There's no way that's not a bug or design oversight. 😛

Oh you're definitely right and if we can get Revenant to be more user friendly at lower levels I'm all for it. I just wanted to spread the knowledge that thralls taking damage from all sources can actually be a good thing and we all know how people love their scaling frames.

Right now Enthrall scales really well on the high end. It's the low end that needs work. I'm sure the Stalker trick is bugged too because he doesn't actually fight for you, he just breaks and stands helplessly.

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Since the Thralls no longer stall Defense waves (they should fix friendly units that spawn such as the Osprey from the Corpus Tech that holds up the wave), here is something I would like to add on to the friendly fire immunity:

Make Revenant the only one capable of damaging the Thralls (separate between other Revenants). Additionally, convert any allied damage into more damage for both the Thralls & their pillars upon death while also increasing the amount of overshields they drop when killed by Danse Macabre.

 

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On 2018-10-15 at 8:15 PM, Duality52 said:

Since the Thralls no longer stall Defense waves (they should fix friendly units that spawn such as the Osprey from the Corpus Tech that holds up the wave), here is something I would like to add on to the friendly fire immunity:

Make Revenant the only one capable of damaging the Thralls (separate between other Revenants). Additionally, convert any allied damage into more damage for both the Thralls & their pillars upon death while also increasing the amount of overshields they drop when killed by Danse Macabre.

 

That's kind of the point I was making in my OP. It wouldn't make sense for Revenant to not be able to kill his own thralls, considering the multiple interactions it has with his other abilities. The only person who should be able to kill them is the caster who afflicted them, but they could still receive the same treatment as Nyx's mind controlled enemies and Nidus's linked victim have, which stores ally damage and is applied all at once once the effect ends.

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Even if it was just like... 8 seconds of immunity, that would be enough time for them to at least start converting other enemies. As it stands they often die before they're able to even begin converting other enemies and you end up in this vicious cycle of wasting energy trying to get enough of them converted that they'll keep the conversion chain going.

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On 2018-10-18 at 3:26 AM, XaoGarrent said:

Even if it was just like... 8 seconds of immunity, that would be enough time for them to at least start converting other enemies. As it stands they often die before they're able to even begin converting other enemies and you end up in this vicious cycle of wasting energy trying to get enough of them converted that they'll keep the conversion chain going.

Yes, even a couple seconds of immunity from ally damage would be enough for Enthrall to be useful. The timed damage immunity should also apply to enemies who are converted by other thralls, to ensure there's always at least one who can keep propagating if teammates instakill the older ones.

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