Jump to content

How to make enemies hard ideas


(XBOX)Architect Prime
 Share

Recommended Posts

This thread is dedicated to ideas for making enemies harder. Feel free to comment your list. Mine is below. 

Simply being high level isn't enough, there needs to be something more. More enemies that: Adapt to damage types, are immune to damage types, can deplete energy, immunity to powers, hard to hit weak points, consistent and effective dodging, invisibility, multi-stage, inhibiting mobility or other factors, secondary elemental procs like radiation, More advanced AI at higher levels, proc immunity, higher mobility at higher levels, boss-like enemies, powerful vehicles, attempt to release infestation onto you for a certain amount of time, destroying/abandoning their ship - forcing you to move to the next ship via archwing, setting up bombs that you have to disarm, survival missions where they try something other than cutting off life support, null globe-esk things, disruption, tracking projectiles, confusion tactics, ability to steal an ability and use it for them self, more unpredictability, Chameleon-like camouflage, and so on... 

That's just some ways I think that enemies (not all obviously) could be made harder. There's not enough badass-powerful enemies worthy of taking us down. I believe in buffing the enemies instead of nerfing the player. 

Edited by (XB1)Architect Prime
Link to comment
Share on other sites

For enemies, the Nox is a perfect example of a "mini-boss". Weapon is strong by slowing targets and inflicting Toxin damage, but has limited range. Strong armor everywhere but the helmet. The shattering of the helmet is just juicy. In other words, make more enemies like the Nox rather than just copies or something uninspired (Bombards to Napalms).

Bosses, I guess the Eidolons would do. They are not completely immune to damage until you have to wait for a weak spot (Vay Hek in particular, Sargus Ruk, Lech Kril, Lephantis, etc.) and they shouldn't be a joke (Phorid, Sergeant). I should mention how interesting their attacks are, though sequential fights will get repetitive. Let's hope the fight with the Orbs will go interesting and fun.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The fodder enemies need an upgrade to their AI as well; A division into Support, Infantry, Assault, and Artillery would be appreciated, with each set having its own AI roles.

Support - attempt to stay back, not engage in direct combat. Flee whenever possible. Applicable units - units that summon other units, shield ospreys, etc

 

Infantry - a medium-range unit that should never try to run up to us, but should always try to maintain lines of fire while keeping under cover. These units could have AI patterns that make them group up around doorways, throw down shields, and take formations, almost always staying together in groups to make them more formidable. Flee should the numbers of their particular "squad" group formation start to fall too far. Applicable units - Things like Lancers, etc.

 

Assault - Frontline units such as melee grineer, shieldbearers, chargers, stomp moas. These guys really tbh should have more health, making them more of a priority target. They should almost always charge directly at the player. Weaker Units like Grineer Swordsmen or Stomp Moas should probably wait to charge until theres like 3 of them grouped up. Never flee.

 

Artillery - Artillery units should stay relatively near the back and avoid being targeted by the Tenno. If they come under fire, they should flee immidietely. Units like Bombards and other Snipers should fall into this category, taking potshots, then fleeing. These guys straight up just need a damage buff (except Bombards; they need a non-homing rocket cluster that you can actually dodge) in order to make them a threat.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Agreed we need new enemies with different mechanics, abilities, and possible improved movement/reaction since well for some reason if ppl can go on mot survival for 6-7 hours kinda show enemies are only seen as walking life support.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Enemies that could dodge would be a great start. Something mobility focused that doesn't "cheat" to get to you - thinking of like the Grineer Ghouls and how they sorta do that really quick bee line to your location in order to circumvent attempts you make to flee - why not something with a more consistently formidable speed? Something that can run almost as fast as us match our ability to platform. Or just add dodge-rolling as an ability for most melee-focused mobs. I've recently been playing Shadow Warrior 2 and that game is a good example of what you can do with AI, at least in that context. Enemies roll all over the place in that game, particularly ones that are already low to the ground.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Heres an idea copy-pasted from a reddit post of mine. I have an updated version somewhere here but the activity searcher is useless.

So here you go, expect a wall of text.

 

For this purpose i decided to create some enemy concepts to spice up the gameplay without using annoying mechanics like bullet sponge effect, invulnerability, weakspot invulnerability and general cheese skills.

 

Heres the list: The first 2 class comes for the grineer.

Grineer legionnaire:

The grineer legion, mutants among the army who are resistant to genetic degradion. There existence was only known by the Queens and now they are deployed to fight the tenno menace.

Features: Medium health, no armor, base 50% damage reduction, this unit stays under crowd control effects for 90% less time including warframe effects, fodder unit appears on every 4th spawn around the same level where bombards start to appear

Variants:

Javlok legionnaire: These units are armed with a Javlok and an alloy strike shield. The shield in itself has 50% of the total health of this and is destroyable. These units try to charge up to the enemy while spamming attack to make the enemy retreat. When an enemy get close they throw their javloks infront of themselves.

Phalanx legionnaire: These units are armed with a special kuva alloy riot shield and a grenade roller dispenser. The shield cannot be destroyed, its approx 1.5 meter wide and 2.5 meter high covering the unit from aerial attacks too. This unit tries to stay away from the fight generating explosive rollers every sec and swarming the enemy with it. They have a slow turn rate and always try to face the closest enemy. Other units try to use them up as cover. If someone gets close they try to use a sheev to drive them away as these shields are not made to be able to bash.

 

Grineer infestor:

"You dont know fear till you seen an infestor aiming at you" unknown butcher.

The grineer infestor is a bio-weapon specialist made for the purpose to genetically update the grineer units in the heat of the battle.

Features: High health, no armor, base 25% damage reduction, immune to damaging warframe powers, battle enchants allied units with various effects based on the enemy. Same rarity as bombards.

Battle behaviour:

When entering alerted state the grineer infestor aims at the closest ally and lauches a dart of genomorph poison to them. Getting in contact with this dart is deadly to anything but the grineer and even they will suffer severe effects. The infestor can have maximum 3 mutants at the same time and can shot again every 30 sec. The infestor never shots its dart at an enemy.

The infestor stays in cover always and is armed with low damage gas grenades and an emergency teleporter prototype. The teleporter has 50% chance of sending the infestor to a spawn point when taking fatal damage or blows it up creating a magnetic energy wave dealing minor damage with 100% proc chance. The teleport only works once and leaves the infestor with a new behaviour to charge and kill with a sheev.

Genomorph dart effects:

IPS defense: the target hit by the dart grows an additional layer of flesh armor. Gaining 50% defense against a random IPS damage but slowing down and getting an accuracy debuff.

Elementalist form: the target loses most of its flesh and generates a bright aura of elemetal energy. The element choosen is always used by atleast 1 player and grants 50% defense against it while also making the mutant deal that choosen damage. The target loses 50% of its current health and its attack changes into a slow moving elemental beam.

Overcharged one: sometimes things doesnt work, this units loses shape and starts to inflate. Soon his life ends in the least desirable way, by blowing up from rapidly growing tissues so it charges into the enemy. When reaching maximum size it blows up creating bone sharpnel (richocheting projectiles, puncture damage) and an impact based 4m wide aoe.

Each variant has maximum 2 minute before they "expire" with the expection of the overcharged one who only stays alive for 20 second. Every variant is immune to crowd control effects and gain 25% damage reduction.

 

The next ones go for the infested:

 

Horrors:

"These things are the reason why we have wall penetrating napalm cannons" Grineer commander Kar.

Drifting between the planes these infested have formed groups to take down their prey faster.

Features: Low health, fast movement, sudden teleportation attacks (see lower), aoe resistance (see lower), spawns in groups of 10 horrors, semi- common unit.

Attack behaviour:

These units are spawn in the air near players (1-5m). Before spawning the players can here a quiet hissing noise and at the moment of the spawn the light flicker creating 0.5 sec total darkness to cover the spawn of horrors. They always spawn in a group of 10 and go for the player with the lowest current health.

Defenses:

Unless its a projectile direct hit or the aim reticle directly targets them horrors take 90% less damage from all attacks. Horrors immideatly shift planes when they are hit by warframe powers gaining 0.5 sec invincibility every time they are hit by one.

 

The turned:

"Please end it, i dont want to turn into one of those.....things." Unknown corpus trapped in a circular room on an infested ship to a Tenno purge squad.

Features: Medium health, area specific apperance and bonuses(see lower), 10% damage resistance, hard to kill (see lower), common unit, starts to spawn at lv 35.

Apperance:

Depending on the tileset these units look like slightly infested grineer or corpus units using mutalist weaponary. They randomly spawn with a choosen apparance and get the special abilities of the unit they choosen. For example they can be nullfiers, lauch a mutalist ossprey or jump up and shoot out a swaem of projectiles.

Attack behaviour:

These units use the general ai system what their normal variant use with the difference that if an enemy gets close instead of bash they release a cloud of acid dealing high damage with 100% proc chance. They never use the acid cloud on non-player targets.

Defenses:

These units due to the ongoing mutation are harder to kill. Their health is evenly distributed between 5 parts: head, arms and legs. All of them can be attacked but only one can take damage from a single attack. When one is shot down it dettaches and the infestation rapidly grows a new "limb" in place of the lost one.

 

Corpus units:

 

Mercenaries

"I dont trust the Tenno, this job goes for the mercenaries. Tell the quatermaster to give them our best." Vol Na'tek corpus commander deciding who shall deal with the infested on their bases.

Features:

Medium health, 25% damage reduction, frontal shields granting additional 50% directional damage reduction, advanced weaponary, overloading field (see lower), increased movement speed, grineer and corpus units. Common spawn, starting around lv30 1 out of 3.

Apperance: These units are payed mercenaries who were expelled, "executed" or removed from traditional squads for one or more reasons. The grineer units use polished corpus style armors while the corpus uses robotic armor pieces.

Attack behaviour:

Corpus:Due to the robotics installed on them these units are fast armed with bows, glavies, pistols and whips. They use medium-high range attacks and always try to be as hard to hit as its possible. These units are capatable of wall running, double jump and rolls.

Grineer:These units are wearing the latest corpus armor designed for the grineer anatomy. Due to the low weight of the armor these guys are armed with corpus heavy weapons like Supra vandals, Penta burst loaders, Opticors and the infamous dual provas originally designed for John Prodman.

Defenses: All units are equipped with an overloading field decreases all CC effect duration by 50% and creates a magnetic explosion on death. Explosion damage and range is based on the total duration spent under a CC effect.

 

T.E.C.H*

"We cant keep them back, dispatch a T.E.C.H immideatly!" Moments before the Lotus lost the connection with a warframe raid sent to find information on the latest corpus technology.

Features: High health, medium shields, immunity to warframe powers, experimental caster units (see lower). Rare unit, start to spawn around lv40 1 out of 5.

Battle behaviour: The T.E.C.H or the tenno energy channelling host are made from the last useable datastreams found in Alad.V 's laboratories. These units use 4 attacks. A projectile attack, a wave attack, confusion and a rapid attack.

*The projectile attack launches an orb of energy with random elemental effects.

*The wave attack creates a slow moving wave of energy on the ground with random elemental effects.

*The confusion attack infects the mind of a random player and changes all teammates looks to a simple corpus grunt, the attack is not perfect as several things can give away the truth and it only lasts 5 seconds but while its active the players can damage their allies with their weapons. Can only be activated once every 30 sec and only 1 can be active no matter how many T.E.C.H's are in the area.

*The rapid attack uses supra like elemental projectiles shoot out rapidly in a large area to cover the advancement of the corpus.

Defenses: The T.E.C.H is made from salvaged orokin technology and mixture of infested flesh and sentient parts and as such they posses ability to be less prone to warframe powers and damage. Any attack can only deal 25% damage of the total health of the T.E.C.H and they are under crowd control effects for 60% less time.

 

Also if you are interested heres a link on how to spice up some boring gamemodes:

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How about ?

Granting enemies high enough base damage on their weapons that can take you out as fast as your weapons can kill them ?

I don't understand the rationale behind using nerf guns for enemy units, they are trying their best not to kill or what ?
at best their weapon will scratch our shields at best and pose little to no threat, while our weapons are 1 hitters for them.

So, you can take out enemies with 1 hit, they can also take out in 1 hit.

that would make the fight more brutal.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Talonflight said:

The fodder enemies need an upgrade to their AI as well; A division into Support, Infantry, Assault, and Artillery would be appreciated, with each set having its own AI roles.

Support - attempt to stay back, not engage in direct combat. Flee whenever possible. Applicable units - units that summon other units, shield ospreys, etc

 

Infantry - a medium-range unit that should never try to run up to us, but should always try to maintain lines of fire while keeping under cover. These units could have AI patterns that make them group up around doorways, throw down shields, and take formations, almost always staying together in groups to make them more formidable. Flee should the numbers of their particular "squad" group formation start to fall too far. Applicable units - Things like Lancers, etc.

 

Assault - Frontline units such as melee grineer, shieldbearers, chargers, stomp moas. These guys really tbh should have more health, making them more of a priority target. They should almost always charge directly at the player. Weaker Units like Grineer Swordsmen or Stomp Moas should probably wait to charge until theres like 3 of them grouped up. Never flee.

 

Artillery - Artillery units should stay relatively near the back and avoid being targeted by the Tenno. If they come under fire, they should flee immidietely. Units like Bombards and other Snipers should fall into this category, taking potshots, then fleeing. These guys straight up just need a damage buff (except Bombards; they need a non-homing rocket cluster that you can actually dodge) in order to make them a threat.

I like this idea, I would love to add some more upgrades to enemy 

Support - Heavy Gunner, Snipers, commander
Shield units will try to come out with shield formation to protect the support units from direct enemy attacks
as opposed to charging brainlessly at us.

Artillery units would be same as support units, they will be companied by guardian lancers that is equipped with harder hitting weapons, 
like grinlok , sobek, hek, boar. 



Infantry - they will not engage in close combat, instead they will attempt to keep a medium range and try to shoot us up.
when being closed in with melee range they will use grenade

Assault - melee grineer will not charge brainlessly, they will coordinate with bombards given the opportunity 
and will rush in after prelimary bombardment, also combine arms with shield units and fight in formation
to resist spin attacks.

Melee units will also rush in under machinegun covering fire.


New unit - Berserker
Grineer melee unit that is beefier and more of a fighter than regular melee units. 
Equipped with kokhur and will be moving along with melee grineers in charge formation, 

New unit - Grenadier, grineer bombard armed with Tonkor (Corpus will use Lenz)
Or Zarr for kuva units.

Shield formation.

 

Edited by Ada_Wong_SG
Link to comment
Share on other sites

By now it's impossible for the game to be hard. There are many design decisions at play that contribute to this. First is enemy spawns - in all mission modes you get swarmed from all sides. Enemies have to be cannon fodder or you'll end up constantly getting killed without even seeing where it came from. Because bullets come from everywhere. Nox and the ghouls are good enemies in general, but what Warframe needs to do first is to reduce the sheer amount of enemies in levels, while making these enemies more challenging. Used to be only the Infested would swarm you, which fit their theme, but now all factions do, making each of them essentially indistinguishable.

The second is that the entire game requires a huge nerf. We shouldn't be looking for level 100+ enemies to find challenge. In my opinion, level 60 enemies should be challenging to a veteran. The level is just a number, and we know scaling is broken, and I feel as a community we're shooting ourselves in the foot when we ask for higher level enemies. Instead, we should ask for a rebalance of weapons and warframes that makes level 60 a challenge. As it used to be. Mods that trivialize the game, like hunter munitions, need to go.

We need more enemies like the Nox and the ghouls. It's a damn shame there have been so many interesting enemies added in the past years, and 99% of the time you're stuck fighting the basic enemies Warfarme launched with. More special enemies and more common special enemies would do the trick. 

I don't think difficulty is the problem, I think the lack of interesting things to shoot is the problem and the general lack of climactic fights. Go back to the starchart and fight all the bosses. How many of them feel epic? And how many feel like you're trying to shoot a tiny, annoying weak spot to open up an otherwise invulnerable boss? Tyl Regor, Lephantis and the Eidolons are the only kinda good bosses in the game. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Minibosses: 

Corpus: Ambulas, Hyenna... 

Infested: Juggernaut, and create more, the infested need new enemys. 

Grineer: 3G, mini general sargas ruk, with weak points but without invecibility. 

Put randoms accolytes. Surprise tenno. 

 

Enemys with different auras. 

Aura that increase the speed, accurrate, damage, aggresivity... etc  Not only steal energy. 

Light healers for example the 1000 life, recover like 1050, 1100,1170... 

 

Nemesis enemys. 

Enemys that block a specific type of abilities, like CC, AoE... 

Enemys that can hunt invisibility warframes. 

Enemys that have defense against long distance, no only melee. 

 

Balance enemys/warframes:

Abilities need softcap and hardcap, similar to efficiency. 

Enemys better scale armor and damage. 

Better AI in high levels (broke the inmerssion, broke the flow) no only enemys spawn all together, perfect for a shot of plasmor arca, zarr, lenz, zaws.... Limit the kils in range. 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with some of you who are saying that level 100 should basically be phsychotically impossible challenge. And that can all be done by making the enemies harder, not by increasing the level, but by giving them more formidable behavior.

But, like I said. I don't beleive that the warframe's and weapons should have some perfect balance. That would dull the game for me personally. It's the enemies that need to be made better and the escalation in difficulty needs to be much steeper from 0 to 100... Maybe then getting starchart missions done would feel like a main game thing as it should.

Edited by (XB1)Architect Prime
Typo
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...