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"Cautious shot" should be a sidearm mod


Redwyrm
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Now, I'm not going to explicitly state that a build using Concealed ExplosivesPistol Ammo Mutation, and Expel [______] on the Hikou Prime is bad... but you're missing out on oodles of damage that could be coming from things like elemental mods. You would end up using less ammo for more killing, which would take away the need for ammo mutation, and then you would easily be able to outdamage with elemental mods whatever damage you'd be adding with your Expel [_____] mods.

On top of that, you wouldn't be using Blast damage with concealed explosives if you were doing high level content. Blast damage is one of the weakest damage types, only fairly useful Versus Corpus enemies, which aren't much a problem due to their plethora of weaknesses.

So you could get rid of all of those and do more damage by just modding the weapon properly, especially since secondary weapons have the exclusive Primed Heated Charge.

Yeah, maybe you could swap back to Concealed Explosives for low level content... but why not just use a frame that can clear a room at that point? When it comes down to it, you're asking for DE to change something based on your own subjective personal tastes, not because you genuinely think it's something that needs to change. And at that point, if you were just going to use it in lower level content where it would actually be useful, DE isn't going to bother changing it, since lower level content generally doesn't account for much in terms of balancing something, unless that something is hilariously overpowered... which Concealed Explosives is not.

 

Also, the Hikou Prime and Hikou just don't do enough damage to be viable in end game play... They don't even have a high Riven Disposition to make up for their laughable damage. If you're using the Hikou prime in the end game, maybe you would like to examine the Spira Prime? Or perhaps the Lato Vandal? Both of these guns are quite a bit better than the Hikou family.

Heck, I just did the calculations... a single Spira Prime shot does as much damage as an entire magazine of Hikou Prime... in a fraction of the time.

Edited by Axio.
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A single spira prime shot also doesn't have a 10m AoE, which is the whole point of concealed explosives. Additionally, anyone who is using concealed explosives is also likely to be using rhino or mirage to further boost the damage, and is also going to have a primary weapon to take out heavy units if needed.

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40 minutes ago, DarkMarkX said:

A single spira prime shot also doesn't have a 10m AoE, which is the whole point of concealed explosives. Additionally, anyone who is using concealed explosives is also likely to be using rhino or mirage to further boost the damage, and is also going to have a primary weapon to take out heavy units if needed.

That kind of doesn't change the fact that it's not viable in the end game. Nor does it take away from what the op of this thread stated halfway down the page, in how they want to be able to use this mod and weapon in tandem on frames who are not Rhino or Mirage, thus, trying to bring this weapon into the endgame without the prerequisite of using those aforementioned frames.

Edited by Axio.
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6 hours ago, Axio. said:

Now, I'm not going to explicitly state that a build using Concealed ExplosivesPistol Ammo Mutation, and Expel [______] on the Hikou Prime is bad... but you're missing out on oodles of damage that could be coming from things like elemental mods. You would end up using less ammo for more killing, which would take away the need for ammo mutation, and then you would easily be able to outdamage with elemental mods whatever damage you'd be adding with your Expel [_____] mods.

Whole point of concealed explosive build is to... well, maximize damage of concealed explosives. Elemental mods would add only dirrect damage to hikou, but wouldn't add any AoE damage to concealed explosives at all.

Yes, hikou itself is not very strong weapon. So it quite pointless even trying buff it's own damage (beyond what it gets from fire rate and multishot).

6 hours ago, Axio. said:

On top of that, you wouldn't be using Blast damage with concealed explosives if you were doing high level content. Blast damage is one of the weakest damage types, only fairly useful Versus Corpus enemies, which aren't much a problem due to their plethora of weaknesses.

I beg to differ. Blast is extremely powerful against infested (yes, even taking into account damage reduction buff from ancients). Corpus actually not 'melt' as fast from blast as infested. Frankly they don't have armor (usually), so they still die pretty fast. Grineer is only faction that tanks blast very well. In particular elite units, with their alloy armor. But then grineer overall tanks better than any other faction, and generally it better to use spike damage weapon against them.

5 hours ago, Axio. said:

That kind of doesn't change the fact that it's not viable in the end game.

As it is yes, lvl80+ enemies will sustain DPS from concealed explosive very well (except for infested, who still will melt very fast from it).

With Rhino's and/or Mirage buffs however DPS will be enough even for endgame.

 

Another example of weapon with fairly low DPS, which still can be buffed to right level for endgame, is Staticor.

Likewise capable of doing 10m AoE blasts. Frankly not doing self damage at all. And even capable of damaging enemies through any barriers.

Best works on Chroma. Multiply Staticor's damage by 10 (roughly), and it will carry you easily even through Eximus Stronghold 'endless' sorties. Done that more than once in past.

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6 hours ago, DarkMarkX said:

 and is also going to have a primary weapon to take out heavy units if needed.

Exactly. Frankly we always have selection of 3 weapons (few frames 4 even). So you can (and should even) always easily pick one AoE weapon, and one high damaging weapon. Sometimes even 'secondary' weapon can be not entirely single-target damage. Like Opticor for example. Which is capable of doing very high single target shot, and still its semi-AoE gun.

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On 2018-10-18 at 8:27 PM, Redwyrm said:

tps://i.imgur.com/YOZH9ff.png
Undre formaing, so missing last mod. normally last one goes either expel grineer, expel infested or expel corpus. Although i would be more than happy to use equivalent of "caution shot". Chroma is only frame that can easily sustain self-damage. But then chroma have no means of enhancing damage from concealed explosives (his buff enhance direct hikou damage, but not explosive from mod). Mirage and Rhino can greatly enhance explosive damage, but, despite been tanky frames, can't really sustain self damage from it for long

Nope, still not getting it. Even without the Riven the Lenz is doing multiple 20-30k crit hits. The Hikou can self harm but is only going to kill the squishiest frames. A big AoE doesn't really matter when it's only doing a few 100 damage.

It seems it might be useful for abilities/buffs that fire when you take damage, but then why would you need to reduce that? Just put fewer mods on it in the first place.

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1 hour ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

Nope, still not getting it. Even without the Riven the Lenz is doing multiple 20-30k crit hits. The Hikou can self harm but is only going to kill the squishiest frames. A big AoE doesn't really matter when it's only doing a few 100 damage.

It seems it might be useful for abilities/buffs that fire when you take damage, but then why would you need to reduce that? Just put fewer mods on it in the first place.

Lenz is only 5m AoE, and that's it's main disadvantage. It just can't hit as many mobs at the same time as those 10m AoE weapons.

Don't get me wrong, good weapon, used it many times. But when you try to hitting as many enemies as you can in shortest period of time - Lenz won't perform well.

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14 hours ago, Redwyrm said:

Lenz is only 5m AoE, and that's it's main disadvantage. It just can't hit as many mobs at the same time as those 10m AoE weapons.

Yeah, but all the mobs in the Lenz's AoE will be dead. With the Hikou none of them will be. 

As an offensive weapon I'm amazed anyone can use the Hikou past Neptune/Pluto, it just doesn't seem much of a case for a change to an endgame mod.

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Also for got to mention Equinox. With Duality mod, your clone can use explosive hikou very well. Of course for equinox "Cautious shot" would be useless at all. Clone incapable on damaging original equinox, and can't even damage himself.

On 2018-10-20 at 6:00 PM, RobWasHere said:

TBH, Hikou are only used to charge up Chroma's Vex Armor. More useful for Tonkor or Ogris users.

For Chroma in particular - yes. Because Chroma's fury buff increases only base weapon damage, and does not increase damage done by mod like "Concealed explosives" or "Thunderbolt". Then of course Chroma hardly need "Cautious shot" at all. With 979% (or more, if you have equinox in party) scorn buff. chroma can very easily tank few self-damage shots from Ogris.

As i said its more for Mirage and/or Rhino. Who actually capable on increasing explosive damage from hikou (and as such making it as viable end-game weapon). But then not really capable tanking self-damage from it. And providing that its 10 meter AoE, they would need to tank it very often.

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Gerade eben schrieb Redwyrm:

Indeed. Then perhaps you would learn that one would have to be at least MR9, to use Ogris and be able to compare it to other weapons...

Ogris was, is and will ever be one of the worst launchers in warframe.

And while I like the Hikou myself, concealed explosives stops being useafull very early in game and honestly only works on Akkad.

If it's secondary explosive weapons you want go for the Kulstar or Prisma Angstrom. But even they are outclassed by weapons like the Lenz or the Zaar

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3 meter AoE weapons hardly can be considered as AoE weapon at all. That's just way too small radius to affect.

Zarr and Lenz have more decent AoE radius, but still SIGNIFICANTLLY smaller than what concealed explosives have. More importantly both are "spike damage" weapons. What the point of delivering 500k damage to regular grineer units, if they need only 5% of that damage for killing? And those are (regular units, not just grineer regulars) are 99% of what you fight in entire game.

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If we really bringing in comparison most effective AoE weapons, than ts surely will be Arca Plasmor and Phantasma. Yes, only frontal AoE, bu most of the time its even more effective than all around AoE.

Then of course, how long will you use those, before you will be dead tired of them?

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