Iron Skin needed Rework.

[el_chanis]

Im MR 25. I have well over 50% of my frame usage on Rhino (prime). I still kinda hate Iron Skin and its lack of interactivity, let me elaborate: it only scales with itself.

THE ISSUE
At first glance, is an extremely OP defensive skill, perhaps the best, yet, is also absurdly limited by its nature. The iron skin buffer isn't affected by Trinity's blessing, melee blocking, and prevents all the "when damaged" triggers, both from Rage and Hunter's adrenaline, and from Arcanes like Grace, Guardian or Avenger. This doesn't just make the Iron Skin uninteractive, but counterintuitive, given that completely removes the need of Health (both as a stat, and as mod-slots).

TL;DR: Iron Skin gives good results because of all the bad reasons.
P.S.: it also makes fashion frame redundant, doesn't matter what you purchase for Rhino and how you paint him, in mission you will look like an ingot.

THE POSSIBLE SOLUTION
Turn Iron Skin into a buff that grants BASE ARMOR (plus the status inmunity, as usual). Nothing absurd, maybe 300 base armor. This would keep the exact same scaling as it has now (both strength and armor mods, including Iron Clad, Iron Shrapnel would need a rework tho), removing the absurd limitations it has, plus bringing back the importance of Healt to tank. Im willing to accept added duration to compensate the new functionality (from arcane grace mostly), but the current way it works shuts down a huge part of customization and interactions with other items, or even frames, making him terribly linear.

/Discuss

 

 

[DarkRuler2500]

I think the easiest way of buffing it would be adding the "invulnerability" on deactivation for like 2-3 seconds just like Nezha has. Then you can always recast it and when being mid-battle the armor gets scaled up pretty high.

[el_chanis]

26 minutes ago, DarkRuler2500 said:

I think the easiest way of buffing it would be adding the "invulnerability" on deactivation for like 2-3 seconds just like Nezha has. Then you can always recast it and when being mid-battle the armor gets scaled up pretty high.

that keeps negating him access to interaction, wich is in direct opposition to the intention of this post. I don't want him to be MORE LINEAR, not even more tanky (he is absurd in that regard). I want rhino to interact and have access to more customization options that right now, are beyond his reach, and will remain that way with your idea.

[(XBOX)ultamite hero]

none of these changes are really needed though... Don't fix what aint broken.

[el_chanis]

Just now, (XB1)ultamite hero said:

none of these changes are really needed though... Don't fix what aint broken.

absolutly no change in the game is needed. It isn't about need, is about preference and choice, wich Iron Skin right now denies.

[(XBOX)ultamite hero]

4 minutes ago, el_chanis said:

absolutly no change in the game is needed. It isn't about need, is about preference and choice, wich Iron Skin right now denies.

preference to what fashion frame? I highly doubt changing how a frame works mechanicaly just for fashion frame is a good reason. 

Plus rhino is perfectly fine. The only thing that would need changing is his passive. No need to change ironskin just because it doesn't fit your style.

[el_chanis]

2 minutes ago, (XB1)ultamite hero said:

preference to what fashion frame? I highly doubt changing how a frame works mechanicaly just for fashion frame is a good reason. 

Have you even read what i wrote?

Let me repeat it for you: 

1 hour ago, el_chanis said:

The iron skin buffer isn't affected by Trinity's blessing, melee blocking, and prevents all the "when damaged" triggers, both from Rage and Hunter's adrenaline, and from Arcanes like Grace, Guardian or Avenger. This doesn't just make the Iron Skin uninteractive, but counterintuitive, given that completely removes the need of Health (both as a stat, and as mod-slots)

How about that?

[Kriegerurteil]

No, stop it, I have suffered through enough changes to iron skin, only things they could add is that power strength also has an effect on the absorbed damage during the invulnerability period, like say you have 200% power strength your iron skin gets the absorbed damage * 2 as bonus, or as someone mentioned above give you a short invulnerabilty after it expires to recast it again.

[Birdframe_Prime]

Hmmm...

The defense skill that can reach millions of effective health points of defense has actual drawbacks and limitations to its use, and then has an augment made that allows you to sacrifice a mod slot in order to be able to toggle this ability on and off when you need it to overcome about 50% of its limitations.

Seems absolutely, completely and outrageously fair, to me, that it's self-balanced.

Edited October 15, 2018 by Thaylien

[el_chanis]

9 hours ago, Thaylien said:

Hmmm...

The defense skill that can reach millions of effective health points of defense has actual drawbacks and limitations to its use, and then has an augment made that allows you to sacrifice a mod slot in order to be able to toggle this ability on and off when you need it to overcome about 50% of its limitations.

 Seems absolutely, completely and outrageously fair, to me, that it's self-balanced.

wich is why a rework isn't a bad thing. Thanks for supporting my point.

[Birdframe_Prime]

19 hours ago, el_chanis said:

wich is why a rework isn't a bad thing. Thanks for supporting my point.

It's allowed to be powerful because it has limitations. That's the point.

Making it grant base Armour, would just turn him into another broken Chroma, a function that DE deliberately nerfed because frames can't have more than a certain amount of actual Effective Health. Iron Skin is temporary damage mitigation, with its power coming from Enemy Damage scaling, making it only ever as viable as the enemies you're facing and the ability of the player to make three seconds count.

The ability is, and has been for about five years now, balanced. That's why your change is completely unnecessary.

[el_chanis]

4 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

 The ability is, and has been for about five years now, balanced. .

 

12 hours ago, Thaylien said:

The defense skill that can reach millions of effective health points of defense has actual drawbacks and limitations to its use, and then has an augment made that allows you to sacrifice a mod slot in order to be able to toggle this ability on and off when you need it to overcome about 50% of its limitations.

Both can't be true. Pick one.

I, for instance, prefer a weaker skill with higher customization, than an OP one with no interaction with the rest of the game.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 19 Stunden schrieb DarkRuler2500:

I think the easiest way of buffing it would be adding the "invulnerability" on deactivation for like 2-3 seconds just like Nezha has. Then you can always recast it and when being mid-battle the armor gets scaled up pretty high.

Doesn't nezha also have "90% damage migration" on his ward? Meaning that he can still gain energy from rage and arcane effects. For Rhino who's a armored frame to begin with this would do a lot.

I'd love for Iron Skin to get Nezhas mechanics.

[xXDeadsinxX]

Honestly, as to what @Thaylien said, Iron does does not need a rework at all, it’s in a perfect spot right now. Powerful things in the game are supposed to have drawbacks, otherwise if they didn’t, that would be considered way too OP or just out right broken. Which yes, there are certain things in the game that are like that, but adding another skill into the pile will definitely not help in anyway shape or form. My point is, Iron Skin definitely has some drawbacks, but removing the drawbacks would just be not right if you ask me.

[el_chanis]

52 minutes ago, xXDeadsinxX said:

Honestly, as to what @Thaylien said, Iron does does not need a rework at all, it’s in a perfect spot right now. Powerful things in the game are supposed to have drawbacks, otherwise if they didn’t, that would be considered way too OP or just out right broken. Which yes, there are certain things in the game that are like that, but adding another skill into the pile will definitely not help in anyway shape or form. My point is, Iron Skin definitely has some drawbacks, but removing the drawbacks would just be not right if you ask me.

im starting to wonder if people actually read before posting....... How exactly getting 300 or so base armor could in any way be compared to, and i quote: 

 

14 hours ago, Thaylien said:

The defense skill that can reach millions of effective health points

.

The only thing i want, is to be able to use all the fun and cool things i have gotten over the years in this game. Nerfing the skill in the process if needed, wich, imho, wouldn't be so bad given how absurdly OP is right now.

Edited October 15, 2018 by el_chanis

[Gurpgork]

3 hours ago, el_chanis said:

Both can't be true. Pick one.

They both absolutely can be true. It is a strong and useful ability kept in check by meaningful drawbacks. That's literally the definition of a balanced ability. 

Edit: Since you keep quoting the comment about millions of possible EHP out of context, it should be said that getting that kind of EHP out of Iron Skin means that you most likely

1. Got a really good Ironclad Charge and hit a ton of enemies with it
2. Are fighting very high level enemies
3. Timed your cast of Iron Skin extremely well

And, on top of that, some combination of those things are most likely necessary to amp up the ability to have that kind of power. 

You're talking about this ability being super one dimensional, but there's a lot more that goes into it than just pressing 2. 

Edited October 16, 2018 by Gurpgork

[el_chanis]

1 hour ago, Gurpgork said:

 You're talking about this ability being super one dimensional, but there's a lot more that goes into it than just pressing 2. 

You are right. Pressing 1 and then 2. The ability is SUPER one dimensional. Even without iron clad (wich would retain its functionality with my change), the skill is absurdly strong on 99.9% of the situations. The skill itself simply breaks the game under almost every condition except for extreme situations (like sortie's Keyla or superlong endless missions), to the point where you are equaly tanky with 1000 HP, or just 1 HP, because of how it works. 

On top of that, the restrictions aren't in the skill itself, but the entire warframe. A single skill cut off a huge portion of some quite important interactions, i repeat: "on damage" arcanes and rage/hunter's adrenaline, now also Adaptation is on the list too.

[Teridax68]

I don't really agree with the proposed suggestion, or all of the criticism, but I do think the OP has a point: Rhino is known for being one of the game's easier warframes, but he also takes this to such a degree that committing to him actually ends up teaching the player bad habits, e.g. not moving around to dodge fire, not paying attention to status-inducing environmental effects, and so on. With Iron Shrapnel, Rhino doesn't even really need to pay attention to how much Iron Skin he has left, or time his activations, because he becomes able to reactivate the ability on-demand. He's not the only frame that does this (Inaros and Wukong are two other tank frames who are practically incapable of dying by nature), but he's currently the only frame who can make himself immune to both damage and status so consistently. In an environment where Energy costs essentially don't matter, it's kinda difficult to make content challenging for a frame who can ignore almost anything thrown at it 24/7 (besides Nullifiers, but those aren't good design either).

Even if I wouldn't change Iron Skin in the manner specified above, I still feel there needs to be some better gating to it. For example, severely reducing the base health on the ability, and removing the base armor amount, but instead massively increasing the health gained from damage absorbed during the invulnerability period, and having both armor and Power Strength multiply the amount, would change Iron Skin from a mostly passive and uninteractive ability into a much better test of timing.

Edited October 16, 2018 by Teridax68

[el_chanis]

2 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

 Even if I wouldn't change Iron Skin in the manner specified above, I still feel there needs to be some better gating to it. For example, severely reducing the base health on the ability, and removing the armor/Power Strength multipliers there, but instead massively increasing the health gained from damage absorbed during the invulnerability period, and reinserting the multipliers there, would change Iron Skin from a mostly passive and uninteractive ability into a much better test of timing.

I will never agree with any change that doesn't adress how Iron Skin shuts down all the listed interactions. Being unable to block, or get denied the access to arcanes because of the ability is simply unacceptable. This MUST be changed.

[Teridax68]

25 minutes ago, el_chanis said:

I will never agree with any change that doesn't adress how Iron Skin shuts down all the listed interactions. Being unable to block, or get denied the access to arcanes because of the ability is simply unacceptable. This MUST be changed.

That is your own problem, though. Many other frames lack certain interactions with certain game mechanics, and are fine for it (Inaros and Nidus don't interact with shields or overshields, for example). In fact, few to no frames are realistically capable of using all in-game mechanics to a significant degree. It is not game-breaking if Rhino cannot use certain arcanes that require being damaged, particularly since all but two of them provide some form of sustain or durability anyway. Blocking also isn't totally disabled, even if Iron Skin ignores its damage reduction (I'd be personally fine with making it apply, though). There is a difference between an ability lacking in interaction with enemies, and an ability lacking in interaction with certain specific add-ons: the former is problematic, because it puts gameplay at risk of being less interesting and also makes balance more difficult, but the latter simply entails a slight reduction in options (and Rhino has plenty of viable options to choose from when it comes to arcanes or melee weapons). It is not reasonable to demand a complete redo to an iconic ability, one many people like, into some generic stat boost, simply because you personally feel it has to satisfy a very specific requirement that has no real bearing on gameplay in most cases.

[el_chanis]

12 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

That is your own problem, though. Many other frames lack certain interactions with certain game mechanics, and are fine for it (Inaros and Nidus don't interact with shields or overshields, for example)

I can't think of a worse example than that. Shields are worthless. Not even overshield can save that useless mechanic. Trinity can make some use of it because of how OP is her blessing, not because shields are actually a usefull mechanic. No tanky frame relys on shields, and squishy frames that use them will remain squishy no matter how much they get. Thats why Quick Thinking is so important on them. 

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor einer Stunde schrieb el_chanis:

I can't think of a worse example than that. Shields are worthless. Not even overshield can save that useless mechanic. 

As a regular Volt player, i have to disagree to this. You're getting thousands of ehp out of a single discharge that are able to regenerate while you're beein damaged...pair that with mechanics pretty much all shield using frames have (Trin - damage reduction that shares onto the whole squad and affect shields, Volt - Cc, Mag - bullet denial fields, Cc) and overshields become a massive source of survivability frames with drawbacks simply don't have access to.

What's really unfair though is the fact that rhinos armor focused clone, Chroma, in terms of damage and defense does have access to all of those little extras.

It's fine for different stuff to have different rules. It is not if similar things have to play by different rules.

In his case, it is disadvantaged compared to two things, nezhas ward, which is literally the same thing on a different frame and chromas vex, that shares its results... why should rhino be the only one to bear this burden while everyone else gets a free pass?

Edited October 16, 2018 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[el_chanis]

13 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

As a regular Volt player, i have to disagree to this. You're getting thousands of ehp out of a single discharge that are able to regenerate while you're beein damaged...pair that with mechanics pretty much all shield using frames have (Trin - damage reduction that shares onto the whole squad and affect shields, Volt - Cc, Mag - bullet denial fields, Cc) and overshields become a massive source of survivability frames with drawbacks simply don't have access to.

 What's really unfair though is the fact that rhinos armor focused clone, Chroma, in terms of damage and defense does have access to all of those little extras.

 It's fine for different stuff to have different rules. It is not if similar things have to play by different rules.

 In his case, it is disadvantaged compared to two things, nezhas ward, which is literally the same thing on a different frame and chromas vex, that shares its results... why should rhino be the only one to bear this burden while everyone else gets a free pass?

Inaros and Nidus are the worse offenders. Specially Nidus, who doesn't just lacks shields (pure advantage imo), but has higher base armor, HP and scaling (and a weird resistance to nullifers, cuse reasons). Rhino gets left behind on flexibility out of nowhere when the other tanks can achieve the same level of inmortality, without the drawbacks.

Edit: Thousands of EHP means nothing when facing high lvl heavy hitters. A fully charged Volt or Mag will get oneshoted in certain 2nd or 3rd sorties. CC doesn't mean tanking, means CC, a lucky shot can (and indeed does) kill squishy frames mid air. Only Trinity can trully tank with shields, because Blessing ridiculously OP.

Edited October 16, 2018 by el_chanis

[Birdframe_Prime]

2 hours ago, el_chanis said:

Only Trinity can trully tank with shields, because Blessing ridiculously OP.

Ahh, we've figured it out guys.

A radial full heal that provides only 75% damage reduction to players for a very limited time. If that, after the forty seven different nerfs to that frame, is still considered OP by the OP, we can pack up and go home.

As a point, though, 'tanking' as a concept in Warframe is one that has never actually been mechanically supported. Some frames can absorb more damage than others, this does not make them tanks, because the key concepts of Warframe are that you don't draw aggro to yourself whenever possible, you do not mitigate damage from others onto yourself, and you use any and all methods available to avoid taking damage because enemies scale to the point of one-shot unless you have an actual way to prevent your base health from taking damage in the first place.

Iron Skin is powerful, fairly un-interactive to limit its power, but not over-powered because if you walk out there, take the necessary damage in three seconds to scale that Iron Skin up to the millions, as it can do, but then try to face-tank everything that comes your way after? You get that Iron Skin stripped back in the same amount of time by the enemies that gave it to you.

It's why Rhino has a wide-area CC as his 4, and not Iron Skin, because the damage mitigation it can potentially give you is meaningless if enemies are continuing to deal that damage to you en-masse. It's a horde shooter, after all.

CC may fail if you're not careful in this game, but CC will last you far longer in Warframe than attempting to classic Tank, because DE haven't ever encouraged the idea of standing there and taking what the enemy can dish out.

[el_chanis]

6 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

 Iron Skin is powerful, fairly un-interactive to limit its power, but not over-powered because if you walk out there, take the necessary damage in three seconds to scale that Iron Skin up to the millions, as it can do, but then try to face-tank everything that comes your way after? You get that Iron Skin stripped back in the same amount of time by the enemies that gave it to you.

 

That would be a perfect description of the ability.... if the entire game would be made of lvl150 mobs. Rhino can do entire sorties with a single activation of Iron Skin. Once again, 99% of the game gets nullified by how (not) interacts.