DE's mishandling of Endgame Content Matchmaking.

[VeryInky]

18 minutes ago, AzureTerra said:

There are ways and means around this ~ primarily its called building your squad and just just randomly jumping in with PUGs. The game does not need a "better matchmaker" when nothing is better than handcrafted.

hardly. most people immediately leave a pub except when doing like endo farming or vault runs. How are you supposed to stick with a pub if the crappy matchmaking shoves you into a lgame with maybe one good player? You're already in the game. You never get the opportunity to handcraft your squad. that's what I'm saying.

[butka1998]

3 minutes ago, VeryInky said:

hardly. most people immediately leave a pub except when doing like endo farming or vault runs. How are you supposed to stick with a pub if the crappy matchmaking shoves you into a lgame with maybe one good player? You're already in the game. You never get the opportunity to handcraft your squad. that's what I'm saying.

Easy be a good player yourself there are so many posibilities to be so freaking OP in this game its unbeliveable.... Good melee + tank frame is the most common and easy to get one... With that you can solo even levels 300 (yeah got to that point once while farming for freaking hema....)

[VeryInky]

13 minutes ago, butka1998 said:

Then god forbid you from playing games like Destiny 2 where you wait for players to do raid with you even 3 hours..... Recruiting chat is more than fine for this stuff and its far better system than some other games have... And theres no time before night on plains? Depends on you when you start you have an hour and half at max and thats more than long enough to get the team you want.

And for arbitrations? Dayum they are easy with 90% of my builds so public matchmaking is no problem at all... All you really need for those is good build and good primary or secondary to shoot down the drones. (worst case scenario use rhino that you can get after 15 hours into game and you will be just fine)

Also some of the stuff you have written is quite confusing you can always invite friend first and then join public matchmaking... And I dont see any reason why you should care what others bring if you arent trying to be extremely efficient on eidolon or go for run longer than an hour...

As for Destiny 2, No I only play good games. You're saying your anecdotes trump mine. I'm saying it's inherently unfun and flawed the way public matchmaking works on endgame. You say you can have fun and that they are easy enough the way it is now. I completely disagree. The current matchmaking system is #*!%ed, have fun soloing an interception arbitration where 2/4 allies wipe before rotation 2. No. that's so stupid and the system is so dumb right now. I propose a fix that you don't have to agree with and instead nobody thinks the system right now is cancer? That's just being in denial. 

[butka1998]

1 minute ago, VeryInky said:

As for Destiny 2, No I only play good games. You're saying your anecdotes trump mine. I'm saying it's inherently unfun and flawed the way public matchmaking works on endgame. You say you can have fun and that they are easy enough the way it is now. I completely disagree. The current matchmaking system is #*!%ed, have fun soloing an interception arbitration where 2/4 allies wipe before rotation 2. No. that's so stupid and the system is so dumb right now. I propose a fix that you don't have to agree with and instead nobody thinks the system right now is cancer? That's just being in denial. 

Easy to do... told ya.. get good build and git gud and you can solo it no problem... (hint inaros plus gram prime viable option.... also in solo you have much smaller spawn rate so....) And the way current matchmaking is one of the best in all the MMOs there are.... so if you have better system write it down and get it patented...

[VeryInky]

12 minutes ago, butka1998 said:

Easy to do... told ya.. get good build and git gud and you can solo it no problem... (hint inaros plus gram prime viable option.... also in solo you have much smaller spawn rate so....) And the way current matchmaking is one of the best in all the MMOs there are.... so if you have better system write it down and get it patented...

How so? Its one of the worst matchmaking systems out there. All it does is fill players. doesn't account for any setup or Mastery, YOU CANT EVEN SEE YOUR TEAM COMP before you get pushed into a load screen. That is not one of the best matchmaking systems. It takes away from 3 player slots, so many options to synergize with focuses and auras and frames but nope. GONE. How's that so great? again works great for filling earth nodes!

[wtflag]

Bring the frame for the mission type, not for the bonus.

Once people learn that the bonus is a trap the team composition will improve.

 

 

[butka1998]

1 minute ago, VeryInky said:

How so? Its one of the worst matchmaking systems out there. All it does is fill players. doesn't account for any setup or Mastery, YOU CANT EVEN SEE YOUR TEAM COMP before you get pushed into a load screen. That is not one of the best matchmaking systems. It takes away from 3 player slots, so many options to synergize with focuses and auras and frames but nope. GONE. How's that so great? again works great for filling earth nodes!

You can go for those synergies and stuff with either friends or in recruit chat. And except for runs longer than hour or tridolon theres no need for those... You can do everything else on your own in this game so just filling up is good enough you dont need anything else. As I said theres no need to force others to go what YOU want so stop being slefish... And no it doesnt take away anything you can switch to friends only, public, solo or you can invite friend/s and then start matchmaking what else do you need? There really isnt anything on starchart that you would need other teamates to have synergy. (examples - gara- milion damage and more, Chroma hundreds of thousands of dmg and extremely tanky, oberon self revival tanky and CC, nova has extreme CC and so on and so forth..... you have ability to build on each frame and weapon to such extremes you can 1 hit levels 150 and beyond so for what would you need to force others into synergies? )

[CoolDudeMcCool]

Wanting a super serious team that ignores the buffs unless they happen to correspond with your composition anyway is clearly not intended, or at least not any more intended than using the buffs. DE has designed a feature, that means they want people to use it. Once you're saying "No, don't use this intended feature" you're making up new rules that nobody has to follow, which is why you should find like-minded individuals who will go along instead of trying to join at random and happening to get people that agree with you. If recruit chat is slow, that's not DE's fault. It's the feature for people who want to have specific setups for missions, not pubs.

[VeryInky]

2 hours ago, butka1998 said:

NO you dont have to sit there for that long.... usually I get a squad after 5 minutes (havent seen it take any longer personaly) in recruit (and yes I sometimes leave if I see that they dont have sufficient stuff for 3x3). So what else do you need? You can take a look at the players equip and if you dont like it just leave the squad thats what everyone does and there are so many people doing it you really have plethera to choose from.... Also why is not using mic a bad thing if you dont need it? The things you have to do are easy to remember and dont require much co-operation thats how it was designed. And other endgame content? ESO? doable in solo with equinox + zenurik for a very long time in public even with "bad players". Arbitration? Same as ESO good build and you can go for a long time.

So if you dont like it find 3 friends and do it with them easiest way or when you do tridolon with "good players" add them so next time you dont have to search for "good players" on tridolon thats for what you have friends list anyway...

Sorry your point is partially wrong. You cannot take a look at their equipment. I mean you can see their frame and weapons. Guess what you can't see? Any of their builds or how about their operator amp. How about any arcanes? how about their focus tree progress or equipped focus? Making up the crappiest excuses rather than to rework anything and make it better. 

[butka1998]

9 hours ago, VeryInky said:

Sorry your point is partially wrong. You cannot take a look at their equipment. I mean you can see their frame and weapons. Guess what you can't see? Any of their builds or how about their operator amp. How about any arcanes? how about their focus tree progress or equipped focus? Making up the crappiest excuses rather than to rework anything and make it better. 

All you need to see is that: 1. Chroma has self dmg weapon, shields lowering dragon key, high base dmg accurate primary (all of that can be seen)
                                           2. Harrow is harrow, has high base dmg accurate primary and in recruit chat if he has Void Strike (all of that players either write or you                                                        can see)
                                           3. Trinity has high base dmg accurate primary and if she has Void Strike and since update you dont have to ask if she has archwing                                                            consumable so... (all is written or can be seen again)
                                           4. Volt high base dmg accurate primary and Void Strike (again can be seen or is usually written)                     
                                           5. People ususally write what "tier" their  amp is or you can simply ask

You are in no need to see all of their mod sets on weapons or frames. People that want to go Tridolon usually have builds they need for it if they have Void Strike. All of above is needed ONLY FOR HIGH EFFICIENCY TRIDOLON GRIND which isnt really what is a feature of game. Its designed that way you can hunt at least 1x tridolon in those 50 minutes (which is something many people are even able to pull solo) if you want more its ONLY YOUR PROBLEM (not games) how you do it. 

So stop pretending there is some problem with matchmaking... what you want is "special matchmaking" for something thats not a basic "feature" of the game but high efficiency grind. And never have I ever seen MMO where something like that exists as its something players do to get bigger loot by "cheesing" the game.

Bottom line there is no problem with matchmaking in this way. So remember your freedom and jurisdiction ends where freedom and jurisdiction of others begins. For what you want special matchmaking there are dedicated groups, clans, etc to this "cheesing".

("cheesing" = term used commonly among MMO players - means to overcome/outsmart boundaries of game for ones profit not to be confused with cheating which is doing so in by game prohibited way)

Edited October 16, 2018 by butka1998

[rune_me]

13 hours ago, VeryInky said:

As for Destiny 2, No I only play good games. You're saying your anecdotes trump mine. I'm saying it's inherently unfun and flawed the way public matchmaking works on endgame. You say you can have fun and that they are easy enough the way it is now. I completely disagree. The current matchmaking system is #*!%ed, have fun soloing an interception arbitration where 2/4 allies wipe before rotation 2. No. that's so stupid and the system is so dumb right now. I propose a fix that you don't have to agree with and instead nobody thinks the system right now is cancer? That's just being in denial. 

If you can't solo an interception mission, then the problem may be you and not the other players.

I agree that it's easier to be a team for a few mission types, like interception, but you can certainly solo it just fine.

[Erytroxylin]

There is no way a computer algorithm can do such a thing without also breaking the game for casual players.

 

Go to recruit chat.

[ElKayJae]

I have been in MMOs that have matchmaking systems which allow players to host rooms which players can search for.

For example for eidolon hunting, the game could allow the host to mark the game he is hosting as eidolon hunt ( the game should have built in filters like eidolon hunts, long surivals, arbitration, etc). Then there should be an interface for people to filter 'eidolon hunt' which will list all the rooms being hosted, allowing people to quickly browse through all the eidolon parties and try to request the room hosts to allow them to join.

Another kind of system automatically will pair DPS class + healer + tank together to form a 'balanced' party. Of course, warframes are not divided into class but changes roles based on modding. I would suggest allowing to tag our own builds as support, tank , dps etc. However I do see the issue of players tagging inappropriately or trolling, causing such a system to fail.

A system for warframe would be for the host to determine the setup or even warframes that are needed for the squad and people could try to request the host to join.

TLDR: Warframe needs searchable rooms for people to look for squads for common objectives.

[butka1998]

8 minutes ago, ElKayJae said:

I have been in MMOs that have matchmaking systems which allow players to host rooms which players can search for.

For example for eidolon hunting, the game could allow the host to mark the game he is hosting as eidolon hunt ( the game should have built in filters like eidolon hunts, long surivals, arbitration, etc). Then there should be an interface for people to filter 'eidolon hunt' which will list all the rooms being hosted, allowing people to quickly browse through all the eidolon parties and try to request the room hosts to allow them to join.

Another kind of system automatically will pair DPS class + healer + tank together to form a 'balanced' party. Of course, warframes are not divided into class but changes roles based on modding. I would suggest allowing to tag our own builds as support, tank , dps etc. However I do see the issue of players tagging inappropriately or trolling, causing such a system to fail.

A system for warframe would be for the host to determine the setup or even warframes that are needed for the squad and people could try to request the host to join.

TLDR: Warframe needs searchable rooms for people to look for squads for common objectives.

You can already do that via recruit chat... You just invite people based on what they have and write into the recruit chat. Thats what the wole LF 3x3 chroma/harrow,... stuff is...
And you already have the "room" you invite people into... normal group.. Only problem as you have already realized is that we dont have classess and stuff like that in warframe due to its nature... So this is really the best option. Yes there could be like flag with distinct color next to the message or something that indicates its meant for 3x3 on first glance but other than that? Theres really not anything you can improve (maybe add kicking button (for host) to the squad while in orbiter only but thats all I can think of).

Edited October 16, 2018 by butka1998

[ElKayJae]

5 minutes ago, butka1998 said:

You can already do that via recruit chat..

Thats quite a different system, people in the recruit chat have to keep typing the same messages over and over again and messages would also get pushed up or unnoticed vs a room system where u set up a room and it will be listed on the LFP menu or smth. A party system would also organise stuff and list all the same objectives together like all the eidolon hunt parties, all the radshare parties etc and is alot more user friendly and neat I would say.

The system can also be neatly divided into LFP and Hosting sections where it makes finding a squad alot easier and does away with nomenclature where some people dont know whats looking for or hosting.

Edited October 16, 2018 by ElKayJae

[butka1998]

1 minute ago, ElKayJae said:

Thats quite a different system, people in the recruit chat have to keep typing the same messages over and over again and messages would also get pushed up or unnoticed vs a room system where u set up a room and it will be listed on the LFP menu or smth. A party system would also organise stuff and list all the same objectives together like all the eidolon hunt parties, all the radshare parties etc and is alot more user friendly and neat I would say.

Destiny 2 has this on bungie net and let me tell you it really isnt that good as it might seem on paper really. You can always scroll the chat if you need it to pause or you are looking for something specific. I guess there could be some board where you have the groups listed with what they are doing and how many are there but thats about it. Problem is that people who arent used to this chat system in warframe spam what they want repeatidly (thats why the waiting time till another message can be posted was added). But other than that I dont have problems with the recruit chat I just post what I want to go and usually I get a PM in less than 20 sec asking me what stuff I have from the host.

[ElKayJae]

1 minute ago, butka1998 said:

Destiny 2 has this on bungie net

The big problem is that it isnt ingame from what i can infer from this statement, meaning people have to alt tab to search for party, and is not integrated to ingame squad system, which hurts usability alot 

1 minute ago, butka1998 said:

Problem is that people who arent used to this chat system in warframe spam what they want repeatidly

Precisely helps to solve this problem. Most people who use recruit chat will just glance at whats currently visible in the chat menu as well whatever gets scrolled past very fast with all the different H and LF parties, which i dont think is very intuitive =/

[Styliaan]

Dunno about OP, but anytime i've been farming a specific mode i've come across plenty of decent players doing the same who have then been added to my friends list. You eventually end up with too many options to take of like minded people.
Its only during the first few runs things seem like an uphill battle to get a decent group. After a few runs it is generally all sorted.

At worst you generally only have to fill 1 slot occasionally and those people also get added to f-list.
Hell, you eventually end up with a discord full of people joining you and each other after  awhile.

 

If you are looking for a random group every time then you probably need to work on social skills. Coz these other people are generally just as keen as you to have a group sorted as quick as possible. Are you driving them away, or just not having the foresight to realise maybe keeping contact with these people is a good idea for future runs.

[Styliaan]

5 minutes ago, ElKayJae said:

 

Precisely helps to solve this problem. Most people who use recruit chat will just glance at whats currently visible in the chat menu as well whatever gets scrolled past very fast with all the different H and LF parties, which i dont think is very intuitive =/

Filters is a great option for removing the clutter. Only see what you need to see.

[ElKayJae]

40 minutes ago, Styliaan said:

Filters is a great option for removing the clutter. Only see what you need to see.

It is more of a graphical interface thing instead of a chat thing i think.

 

I also remembered another quirk about the recruit chat is that you can only see the chat messages flowing in when u tab on recruit chat. It also doesnt store messages prior to you logging in and tabbing at the recruit chat.

A party board system will have a static holding of all the current open rooms, showing you what that has been there even before you have logged into game. Currently you have to log into game, tab at the chat and wait for messages to slowly populate with new information, which is why people have to repeatedly spam recruiting messages as people who just logged in or just tabbed to the chat would not see prior recruiting messages.

[nefrai]

Because DE doesn't want you to carefully tailor a PUG, and only choosing MR24's or whatever. You want that, you do this thing called...making friends and getting a clan.

[(PSN)Zero_029]

I hate to say this...but...

Typically Endgame is done in pre-mades & with friends.

If you're queuing up for a PUG then you get what you signed up for.

Even if they allowed folks to review loadouts before the game starts. It'd end with folks wanting someone kicked but the Host ignoring it, or the host kicking people constantly. Because VERY few players honestly want to have a kind chat, especially over gear/loadouts.

The following isn't aimed at you OP...

_______________________________________________

The Warframe Community REALLY needs to sit down, STFU, & re-evaluate itself.

For months upon months its endless threads about how Public/PUG games connect them with folks who aren't like minded, who don't want to play a endless for __ hours, who have bad loadouts, who are ___ MR, who leave after 5/10/30 minutes, who don't revive them, etc.

I mean, my God people. A RANDOM group is random.

If you want a team with a solid loadout, MR, Mods, etc. Use recruiting & meet others like yourself.

Folks keep asking for Public MM to have all these crazy restrictions, filters, sub screens, etc.

If DE added all this crap, then queuing up for a quick game would no longer be a thing.

Instead, it'd be a job application just to MM.

And once folks have their filters set up. The majority would end up playing solo. Because we're all different & have varying likes & dislikes.

_______________________________________________

I apologize for the rant OP. But I'm wearing out on all these threads over Public/Random MM.

DE gave folks recruiting for what you desire.

[Kaotyke]

15 hours ago, wtflag said:

Bring the frame for the mission type, not for the bonus.

Once people learn that the bonus is a trap the team composition will improve.

 

 

>Loki 300% Power Strenght.

Like... why would I use it?

Same with things like the Dual Heat Swords, Cerata... most melees actually.

tip: in Interceptions and Defence, throw down a Trinity Specter and an Anicent Specter . (Or ALL Specters for pure Meatshields)

[Spectre-8]

20 hours ago, VeryInky said:

The title of this thread is harsh but true. When you queue for a match on any node but more specifically, Index, Eidolons or Arbitrations what usually happens? 

For me, 90% of the time you get thrown into a group of 2-3 people and immediately pushed into a loading screen before you have time to even say hi or to evaluate your team's composition.

This is extremely frustrating with eidolons. You're pushed into a squad with maybe 2 meta frames, and no experience.  Heaven forbid you don't have 20mins to sit in recruiting chat to filter through people with the correct Focus, proper builds and experience before night cycle. One word. Frustrating.

And now this problem has infected Arbitrations. It's great that we now have actual endgame content now, you can't get an mr 5 that happened to complete the right quest to queue up, you need 100% star chart completion. We are slowly developing a Meta for arbitrations, since surviving to the last possible minute is important, it is great to have a Phoenix Renewal Oberon in your party along with whatever your mission calls for. Endgame Excavation gets difficult with no defensive frames. Whatever META is developing for this or team comp is almost immediately stomped by whatever the Arbitration bonuses are. So you will join a corpus excavation with like a Nezha, Rhino, Nidus, Octavia with the wankiest weapons on because of a ceramic dagger damage bonus.

The matchmaking makes this even worse. As soon as you queue you're shoved in to the game with no chance to maybe tell your team to take off Corrosive Projection on your corpus mission or that maybe you dont need 3 rhinos to do a grineer defense. It would be nice if for specifically (but not exclusively) Eidolons  and Arbitrations, people with in game Mics could be paired with their peers. And maybe if we do get paired into a 4 man squad, we don't have 4 seconds to get our composition together. 4-man readies to start Eidolons and Arbitrations would be a nice start, and in the context of pre game only, vote to kick. For example, queue for Arbitrations, you don't have a timer right off the bat, have a chance to discuss your auras, what meta you want to run or someone can deviate from that if they have favorable bonuses. Then when all 4 people are ready and they hit accept we get a 10 sec timer, 3 people can votekick if they think that maybe a Zephyr would be less useful than a Frost with some augments on a defense arbitration. 

 

Just my frustrations and thoughts put into a possible solution for the current mess of endgame matchmaking. Frankly we need a better solution than "Just use recruiting chat."

Recruiting chat is clunky and slow even with filters. Maybe you'll get someone who can fill your role w the right aura and focus. But probably not.

Anybody that has used recruiting chat over your friends list for tridos 3x3 or higher can attest to this.

DE pls fix

Form your own squad that will play by your meta rules , problem instantly solved .

Or be lazy and try to blame DE for it , this also works .

[Kokomala]

20 hours ago, VeryInky said:

Well I mean randos are pretty bad i agree with you there. But i've had too many experiences of Limbo's dying on rotation A corpus excavation then his buddy sitting at extraction because his buddy died. Honestly pubs are disgusting. And rotation C is achievable on solo yes but do you really wanna Solo 6 Interception waves for rotation C?! Especially since enemies interception caps are buffed. Haha glhf.

Enemy node speed on interception has no impact on how fast each rotation goes. Maintain 3 nodes and you're fine solo - any frame with some control can easily hold 4 nodes for a significant period.

Honestly, IMO a full squad is more detrimental in this game mode compared to solo/duo.

Edit:

Part of the fun of warframe is having random combinations of frames, ability usage and weapon configs when you join into a public group and making them work. Sometimes you carry, sometimes you get carried. Start a conversation with people, you might just find out their experience and have the opportunity to offer constructive advice. If you want a specific combination, there's a few ways to get that (recruiting, clan, alliance, or through making friends). Honestly host latency is more important than what frame is brought by each squad member.
 

Edited October 16, 2018 by Kokomala