Welp, R.I.P. Rev.

[SneakyErvin]

4 hours ago, Diveris said:

Check it out though.. 30 mins is the bare minimum. Any frame can survive 30, with a decent build. You admit you didn't have to use his damage ability.  And just used a melee.. Wukong can do that to. 

Beyond 5th or 6th rotation solo and his dps will be mostly weapon only because he doesn't scale well. 

In a high dps group in high level content the most useful skill he has is mesmer skin. His 4 falls off to fast, thrawls die to quickly and leave pillars that tickle mobs. And reave is so situational it's silly.

Considering most high level content has you staying in relatively the same spot, and thrawls die as quickly as you make them.. Reave becomes a travel ability.

No his #4 does not fall off fast. Go test it versus high level corrupted units in Sim. Those are well within the levels we can expect and slightly beyond. There is only one unit type he doesnt really scale well against and that would be ancients. And with the changes to reave in the recent patches makes it even more deadly when used during #4 against heavy units.

And he can easily go well beyond 30min but there is little point since the 1.5% increase in drop chance for the things you want is simply too small of a boost to do "harder" content. Rotation 4, 5 and 6 are simply not bringing enough of an increase to make it challenging. Especially more so in a group where you have the risk of others dying, bailing and forcing host migrations at times.

[LupisV0lk]

Went to wave 19 in ARB with Rev. Never got into trouble. Just gotta not be a dumb-dumb and mod him out right.

[Diveris]

1 hour ago, LupisV0lk said:

Went to wave 19 in ARB with Rev. Never got into trouble. Just gotta not be a dumb-dumb and mod him out right.

Wave or Rotation? A defense wave and a rotation are two different things. If you did 19 rotations solo I would be impressed. If you did it in group you could of been carried. 19 waves any frame with a player who knows how to play can do.

Wave 19 isn't where things get tough in there, and you won't get into trouble with Rev due to his defensive; but there is a point where he has to rely solely on weapon damage.

Just because a frame can face tank content doesn't make it good. It just makes it easy for a "dumb-dumb" to use.

When I first started playing I was told Rhino was a bad starter frame for this exact reason.

[_DapperDanMan_]

10 hours ago, Diveris said:

That could just be a Rev with a good gun.. Just because you did one instance with one Rev doesn't make him fine.

Mirage is a Gun frame, and Gara never really ranks high when I've been in group with one.

Loadouts matter and if it was a pug, you really don't know who was using what.

All he did was spin to win most of the game and enthrall Nox for us. He was using the new infested shotgun and a dark dagger for the bonus.. Ironically, he even commented on the unnecessary whining about his rework.

If you want to know someone's loadout just hit esc.. EZ

anyone who's played more than 3 months would know that.

Gara was #1 for damage btw.

Edited October 17, 2018 by _DapperDanMan_

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

9 hours ago, (XB1)ultamite hero said:

max efficiency frost says hi

Still need energy upkeep.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

9 hours ago, (XB1)ultamite hero said:

max efficiency frost says hi

Still need energy upkeep.

[SneakyErvin]

49 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Still need energy upkeep.

Barely. Max efficiency no Flow build is very easy to sustain.

[(XBOX)ultamite hero]

2 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Still need energy upkeep.

Zenurik and energy pizza says hi.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

20 minutes ago, (XB1)ultamite hero said:

Zenurik and energy pizza says hi.

Zenurik doesn’t really help in cases of ability spam unless you’ve picked up like 5-6 energy orbs.

[(XBOX)ultamite hero]

9 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Zenurik doesn’t really help in cases of ability spam unless you’ve picked up like 5-6 energy orbs.

then you have no idea how much 5 energy per sec can provide upkeep for a max efficiency frost. 

edit: not to mention he's been used in a 7 hour survival for basically keeping the team protected in his bubble.

Edited October 17, 2018 by (XB1)ultamite hero

[Diveris]

5 hours ago, _DapperDanMan_ said:

All he did was spin to win most of the game and enthrall Nox for us. He was using the new infested shotgun and a dark dagger for the bonus.. Ironically, he even commented on the unnecessary whining about his rework.

If you want to know someone's loadout just hit esc.. EZ

anyone who's played more than 3 months would know that.

Gara was #1 for damage btw.

I sense a condescending tone here so I will keep this concise before I end up catching a ban.

A loadout is more than the items a person has equipped. Loadout is largely dependent on how those items are modded. Hit esc and tell me that..

If Rev's 4 is powerful... and he mostly used it exclusively, but Gara was #1 for damage? Know what i'll just leave that alone. Go play Gara for a while and tell me how her damage works. If rev's 4 scaled well there wouldn't be much around for Gara to kill. I guess Gara could sit and stack damage for splinter /shrug.

What I am saying is that group comp was low damage in general; being number 2 with Mirage and Gara makes Rev look even worse..

Since it seems like your feelings are being hurt this is my last comment with you though... Bye bye.

 

Edited October 17, 2018 by Diveris

[LupisV0lk]

7 hours ago, Diveris said:

Wave or Rotation? A defense wave and a rotation are two different things. If you did 19 rotations solo I would be impressed. If you did it in group you could of been carried. 19 waves any frame with a player who knows how to play can do.

Wave 19 isn't where things get tough in there, and you won't get into trouble with Rev due to his defensive; but there is a point where he has to rely solely on weapon damage.

Just because a frame can face tank content doesn't make it good. It just makes it easy for a "dumb-dumb" to use.

When I first started playing I was told Rhino was a bad starter frame for this exact reason.

wave. i was one out of the two that lasted to that wave before the defence target died. did 63% of the damage.

[Diveris]

1 hour ago, LupisV0lk said:

wave. i was one out of the two that lasted to that wave before the defence target died. did 63% of the damage.

This kind of proves what I am saying. If the defense target died it means enemies were not being killed fast enough..

So doing 63% of the damage of a low damage group isn't really special imo. That defensive target has a massive HP pool..

This is not to pick on you or anyone else. Is 19 waves even rotation B?

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, Diveris said:

This kind of proves what I am saying. If the defense target died it means enemies were not being killed fast enough..

So doing 63% of the damage of a low damage group isn't really special imo. That defensive target has a massive HP pool..

This is not to pick on you or anyone else. Is 19 waves even rotation B?

It doesnt come down to low damage, it comes down to group composition and players as a whole. Clearly two in that group werent ready and most likely the composition wasnt on par. Sounds like no Frost or proper Gara in the group and possibly someone running off with the defense target (while also dying themselves).

Add to that the buggy drones resulting in immune mobs that are allowed to fire free on the defense target that doesnt have very much HP (it is like a sortie defense target).

And yes it is rotations B. 1-10A, 11-20B, 21-30C, 31-40C etc.

3 hours ago, Diveris said:

If Rev's 4 is powerful... and he mostly used it exclusively, but Gara was #1 for damage? Know what i'll just leave that alone. Go play Gara for a while and tell me how her damage works. If rev's 4 scaled well there wouldn't be much around for Gara to kill. I guess Gara could sit and stack damage for splinter /shrug.

Funny thing though, my Rev outdamaged Saryns on a regular basis throughout the day in survival missions using only my melee weapon. Does that mean Saryn is weak too since she got decimated by a melee weapon? No it simply comes down to someone not being good (or not caring) at playing the Frame, the same underlying reason for a Gara as top damage when Rev was spin-to-winning. All we know is he spun, not if he did it the right way, in the right place, within LoS and so on.

 

5 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Zenurik doesn’t really help in cases of ability spam unless you’ve picked up like 5-6 energy orbs.

1 Dash = 5En/sec = 5sec/ult. 

1 Orb = 25-50 En, that is 1-2 ults per orb, not counting Zenurik orb En/sec.

There is a reason why I've toned down range/duration/energy pool on most of my nuke frames and opted to go for +75% efficiency instead. You can do whatever you wont without having to worry about energy. I run primed flow on Nidus (due to negative efficiency) and frames with En/sec skills, except for Oberon that does just fine with his basic pool, maxed efficiency, low shields and adrenaline.

[Diveris]

16 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

It doesnt come down to low damage, it comes down to group composition and players as a whole. Clearly two in that group werent ready and most likely the composition wasnt on par. Sounds like no Frost or proper Gara in the group and possibly someone running off with the defense target (while also dying themselves).

Add to that the buggy drones resulting in immune mobs that are allowed to fire free on the defense target that doesnt have very much HP (it is like a sortie defense target).

And yes it is rotations B. 1-10A, 11-20B, 21-30C, 31-40C etc.

Funny thing though, my Rev outdamaged Saryns on a regular basis throughout the day in survival missions using only my melee weapon. Does that mean Saryn is weak too since she got decimated by a melee weapon? No it simply comes down to someone not being good (or not caring) at playing the Frame, the same underlying reason for a Gara as top damage when Rev was spin-to-winning. All we know is he spun, not if he did it the right way, in the right place, within LoS and so on.

 

1 Dash = 5En/sec = 5sec/ult. 

1 Orb = 25-50 En, that is 1-2 ults per orb, not counting Zenurik orb En/sec.

There is a reason why I've toned down range/duration/energy pool on most of my nuke frames and opted to go for +75% efficiency instead. You can do whatever you wont without having to worry about energy. I run primed flow on Nidus (due to negative efficiency) and frames with En/sec skills, except for Oberon that does just fine with his basic pool, maxed efficiency, low shields and adrenaline.

Rotation B was not completed, it was failed. The completion of any rotation is the beginning of the next one whether you stay for it or not; so if you finish A and extract technically you made it to rotation B. Personally I mark rotations by success not failure, I think the game may also.. since it only rewards you after 20. I nor any reasonable person should say a frame is good because it can go to but not succeed in the second of three rotations.

You do not need Frost or Gara to get to past wave 19 in defense.

Any group can do 19 waves of elite defense heck even 20 to complete rotation B.. This isn't a 5-6 hour survival. We are talking about sortie level mobs with an immunity gimmick. I did one today with 2 Titanias and a Necros..

You can speak about out damaging any frame in a survival; but without going into specifics your not saying much. Was this a 20 min kind of deal or hours? If Rev's abilities are so good why do you rely on only your melee? I believe I asked that question before. Because just using your melee makes Rev no different than Wukong for all intensive purposes.

I think you people are getting things confused, for star chart/sortie level content Rev is fine... Strong even.. but take him past that and you see the flaws. Especially in group. People are measuring by the bottom and middle end not his top.

The bug you speak of has not effected me at all. And the Defense target has a large health pool; it won't die if you kill mobs fast enough. If it dies that literally means you were not killing fast enough, it's a fail condition... like a dps check. Faster each wave goes less damage defense target takes. If you want to argue that point we no longer need to continue this conversation.

Last statement in regards to spin to win Rev in the goup with Gara. You mention not knowing if he or she was spinning correctly LOS, ect. But, let me ask you this. If you have to second guess his or her tactics; do you think that person is the correct person to be speaking about people whining about the frame?

[SneakyErvin]

11 hours ago, Diveris said:

Rotation B was not completed, it was failed. The completion of any rotation is the beginning of the next one whether you stay for it or not; so if you finish A and extract technically you made it to rotation B. Personally I mark rotations by success not failure, I think the game may also.. since it only rewards you after 20. I nor any reasonable person should say a frame is good because it can go to but not succeed in the second of three rotations.

You do not need Frost or Gara to get to past wave 19 in defense.

Any group can do 19 waves of elite defense heck even 20 to complete rotation B.. This isn't a 5-6 hour survival. We are talking about sortie level mobs with an immunity gimmick. I did one today with 2 Titanias and a Necros..

You can speak about out damaging any frame in a survival; but without going into specifics your not saying much. Was this a 20 min kind of deal or hours? If Rev's abilities are so good why do you rely on only your melee? I believe I asked that question before. Because just using your melee makes Rev no different than Wukong for all intensive purposes.

I think you people are getting things confused, for star chart/sortie level content Rev is fine... Strong even.. but take him past that and you see the flaws. Especially in group. People are measuring by the bottom and middle end not his top.

The bug you speak of has not effected me at all. And the Defense target has a large health pool; it won't die if you kill mobs fast enough. If it dies that literally means you were not killing fast enough, it's a fail condition... like a dps check. Faster each wave goes less damage defense target takes. If you want to argue that point we no longer need to continue this conversation.

Last statement in regards to spin to win Rev in the goup with Gara. You mention not knowing if he or she was spinning correctly LOS, ect. But, let me ask you this. If you have to second guess his or her tactics; do you think that person is the correct person to be speaking about people whining about the frame?

1. Doesnt change the fact that it is what you asked, rotation B. It has to be since it all starts with rotation A which is finished at wave 10 completion. You simply asked if it was rotation B.

2. No but they help depending on the map (which we dont know either) due to very bugged drone spawn.

3. Yes, but with pugs you get what pugs bring, RNG to the fullest.

4. Yes, that is my point, it doesnt show any indication of how well the other frames are doing, just that the players are bad at their frames. And the reason I played melee is because I dont see a need for his #4 during the first 30mins of Mot. Much the same as when I play Volt or any other AoE heavy #4 frame.

5. As I said, test him in "mass" scale tests in Sim versus high level corrupted mobs without invulnerability checked, that gives a good indication of what he can do at higher levels. And those are mob setups you will never face, it is on the most extreme end of the spectrum. And he wipes them out fast and safe.

6. Glad for you it hasnt happened yet. It has happened to me constantly, most often on Mars defense tiles where they get stuck in the ceiling of the lower room, sometimes inside them, providing constant immunity to everything up top. And when you cant kill those mobs, the defense target will die. The rest depends highly on the team if the player being followed by the D-target is aware of being followed or not while skipping off to collect loot.

7. I cant say because I wasnt there. But 2% off from top damage seems pretty good to me seeing as how "all he did was spin" while the others likely worked their ass off in return. Also taking into consideration that Gara is currently bugged and can insta wipe drone groups by just running through them with splinter storm. The only frame in fact that can kill drones with abilities. Also it isnt the Rev player in question commenting, it is a player that was grouped with Rev telling a story.

[Diveris]

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

1. Doesnt change the fact that it is what you asked, rotation B. It has to be since it all starts with rotation A which is finished at wave 10 completion. You simply asked if it was rotation B.

2. No but they help depending on the map (which we dont know either) due to very bugged drone spawn.

3. Yes, but with pugs you get what pugs bring, RNG to the fullest.

4. Yes, that is my point, it doesnt show any indication of how well the other frames are doing, just that the players are bad at their frames. And the reason I played melee is because I dont see a need for his #4 during the first 30mins of Mot. Much the same as when I play Volt or any other AoE heavy #4 frame.

5. As I said, test him in "mass" scale tests in Sim versus high level corrupted mobs without invulnerability checked, that gives a good indication of what he can do at higher levels. And those are mob setups you will never face, it is on the most extreme end of the spectrum. And he wipes them out fast and safe. 

6. Glad for you it hasnt happened yet. It has happened to me constantly, most often on Mars defense tiles where they get stuck in the ceiling of the lower room, sometimes inside them, providing constant immunity to everything up top. And when you cant kill those mobs, the defense target will die. The rest depends highly on the team if the player being followed by the D-target is aware of being followed or not while skipping off to collect loot.

7. I cant say because I wasnt there. But 2% off from top damage seems pretty good to me seeing as how "all he did was spin" while the others likely worked their ass off in return. Also taking into consideration that Gara is currently bugged and can insta wipe drone groups by just running through them with splinter storm. The only frame in fact that can kill drones with abilities. Also it isnt the Rev player in question commenting, it is a player that was grouped with Rev telling a story.

1. You see things how you do and I will how I do.

2. While they may help they are not required, bugged drones or not. Your original statement was about bad group comp and lacking Frost or Gara.

3. I agree... so judging how a frame is in compassion to other frames/players who may or may not be bad is not a good thing to do.

4. The first 30 mins of anything is not a good judge of how a frame performs; I have been saying that so I'm not sure what your argument is here. If at the 2 hour point your melee out dps a Saryn then that player is AFK.

5. En Mass tests in Sim are useless even with AI unpaused. With the AI unpaused and 10-20 of the hardest corrupted you still have the benefit of pre-buffs, not having other stuff shooting at you from all corners, builds you would never use outside of sim, full power, ect, ect.

6. Has not happened to me even on mars tiles. Solo or in group, has not happened to anyone in my clan or alliance either.

7. You admitted you do not know because you were not there, but what if the others were not working their butts off and that's why he was able to be 2% from the top by just spinning?

 

[SneakyErvin]

47 minutes ago, Diveris said:

1. You see things how you do and I will how I do.

2. While they may help they are not required, bugged drones or not. Your original statement was about bad group comp and lacking Frost or Gara.

3. I agree... so judging how a frame is in compassion to other frames/players who may or may not be bad is not a good thing to do.

4. The first 30 mins of anything is not a good judge of how a frame performs; I have been saying that so I'm not sure what your argument is here. If at the 2 hour point your melee out dps a Saryn then that player is AFK.

5. En Mass tests in Sim are useless even with AI unpaused. With the AI unpaused and 10-20 of the hardest corrupted you still have the benefit of pre-buffs, not having other stuff shooting at you from all corners, builds you would never use outside of sim, full power, ect, ect.

6. Has not happened to me even on mars tiles. Solo or in group, has not happened to anyone in my clan or alliance either.

7. You admitted you do not know because you were not there, but what if the others were not working their butts off and that's why he was able to be 2% from the top by just spinning?

 

1. Not really. What do you call wave 1-10 if you dont call wave 11-20 B? Cos apparently 1-10 cant be rotation A in that case.

2. I was simply pointing out what they may have lacked since those two frames make it easier.

3. Exactly, yet you do it, even in this post I respond to (point 4 and 7).

4. I'm saying you shouldnt judge a frame on the performance at all unless you are 100% sure that the player knows what he is doing.

5. Not at all, that isnt what I'm proposing. I'm saying go there and test it out with your build that you use everywhere else. Obviously defensive buffs would be up because they are never down for Rev in the first place (unless you are a lazy player that doesnt keep track of buffs). You wont get much more than 20 mobs focusing you in real content either and those 20 are of far weaker strength.

6. Still happens to very many people, hence why it is asked to be fixed after every hotfix patch note is posted.

7. Assumptions, something you said we shouldnt make in point #3. We know they made it to wave 50, that means they very likely did their job throughout the game, otherwise as you said yourself, the defense target would die due to lack of dps. Those are your words. We also dont know the % distribution. 46/48/3/3, 26/28/23/23 etc.

In the end, Rev is far from a bad frame, people that find him bad simply cant play him. That is the same case for many frames. People still claim that both Frost and Saryn are bad frames.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

 

In the end, Rev is far from a bad frame, people that find him bad simply cant play him. That is the same case for many frames. People still claim that both Frost and Saryn are bad frames.

That’s a very, VERY bold statement. You can’t just say “oh you just suck at using the frame, and that’s why you think they’re bad” and expect that to be a valid argument. I have never seen someone call frost bad. As a former frost user who switched to gara because I find she does what he does better I know that Frost is still incredibly useful. Saryn is harder to pin because she’s too good at killing to be effective at low levels but at high level content she shines.

to get to the point. There are very small groups of people who think that those 2 frames are bad. But There arguement for Rev (somehow) is at 50/50.

He has inconsistencies, redundancies, and contradictive gameplay designs that hold him back and makes him a clear candidate for being a bottom tier frame that gets easily outperformed.

[Diveris]

51 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

That’s a very, VERY bold statement. You can’t just say “oh you just suck at using the frame, and that’s why you think they’re bad” and expect that to be a valid argument. I have never seen someone call frost bad. As a former frost user who switched to gara because I find she does what he does better I know that Frost is still incredibly useful. Saryn is harder to pin because she’s too good at killing to be effective at low levels but at high level content she shines.

to get to the point. There are very small groups of people who think that those 2 frames are bad. But There arguement for Rev (somehow) is at 50/50.

He has inconsistencies, redundancies, and contradictive gameplay designs that hold him back and makes him a clear candidate for being a bottom tier frame that gets easily outperformed.

Exactly, couldn't of said it better myself.

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

That’s a very, VERY bold statement. You can’t just say “oh you just suck at using the frame, and that’s why you think they’re bad” and expect that to be a valid argument. I have never seen someone call frost bad. As a former frost user who switched to gara because I find she does what he does better I know that Frost is still incredibly useful. Saryn is harder to pin because she’s too good at killing to be effective at low levels but at high level content she shines.

to get to the point. There are very small groups of people who think that those 2 frames are bad. But There arguement for Rev (somehow) is at 50/50.

He has inconsistencies, redundancies, and contradictive gameplay designs that hold him back and makes him a clear candidate for being a bottom tier frame that gets easily outperformed.

He has synergy inconsistancies, that is about it. The synergies that should give survival are redundant but that is about it when it comes to flaws. I dont find the contradictive parts in his gameplay. 1+4 provides overshields for your group and extra boom-boom if it was needed when clearing a group. His 1+3 adds a very effective way when it comes to killing extremely tough enemies, also works on bosses. #2 makes great use of 1+3 aswell, 3+4 are great together because you have massive movement options.

When it comes to Saryn she is just as viable at killing lowbie as high level stuff, you just need to use the skills a tiny bit differently. In lowbie content, skip #1 and just use #4. People are just obsessed with spore stacks, thats the whole argument for "Saryn iz bad!".

And as for Gara vs Frost. Gara will never scale to the content as Frost does. 100% removed armor is 100% removed armor no matter if you face level 1 or level 1000 mobs. Gara's skills will always be outscaled by the content the further you go and struggle against armor. It is straight up silly to sit with 100k/tick on #2 in simulacrum and hitting the mobs for 30 points of damage per tick. As I said, poor scaling. Her #4 is also outclassed by globe since you cant stack it to gain up to 1mill HP.

And no, I'm not saying the players suck, I'm saying the people simply cant play those frames properly. I for instance can not put up with playing Chroma, that doesnt mean he is a bad frame, just that I'm bad at playing him for one reason or another. Same with Atlas, people say he's great since the rework, I cant get him to work nor do I really want to.