Cryssoberyl Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 (edited) Ever since Update 23, despite stressing that no melee gameplay updates were intended yet, several unlisted changes to melee mechanics took place. Among them: Channeling can only be done standing still, not moving. Melee attacks no longer respect sprinting and/or other speed boosts in determining the distance they can travel. Melee weapons no longer have "momentum", i.e. immunity to staggers and knockdowns while attacking. To my shock, almost nothing has been said of these changes, the latter two in particular despite them being a crippling blow to melee gameplay on the most fundamental level. Without the influence of speed boosts, almost every weapon has lost a huge amount of its movement potential, instead often being stuck completely in place while attacking. Far worse however is the momentum change. If this is, as has been rumored, one of Melee 3.0's "improvements", it must be spoken out against now. It is a staggering nerf to the viability of melee, making it virtually impossible to attack effectively in crowded areas without being constantly staggered and knocked down. If you somehow have not yet noticed these changes, I urge you to take a hard look at how the performance of your melee weapons has changed and speak out both here and elsewhere. The ability to cover ground while attacking, and the resistance to CCs while doing so are cornerstones of the usability of melee as a system, and they must not be removed. Edited December 6, 2018 by Cryssoberyl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSG501 Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 2 minutes ago, Cryssoberyl said: Melee weapons no longer have "momentum", i.e. immunity to staggers and knockdowns while attacking. Got to have a reason to use primed sure footed 😛 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeWilliam Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 Pretty sure some of us noticed and are talking about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrBorris Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 55 minutes ago, Cryssoberyl said: Channeling can only be done standing still, not moving. Cool, a bug with a system that is being completely removed, this is extremely telling of where DE is going, I am sure their intent is for 'Devil Trigger' mode is that you stand still. /s 55 minutes ago, Cryssoberyl said: Melee attacks no longer respect sprinting and/or other speed boosts in determining the distance they can travel. I will admit, I have been pretty much using exclusively Tempo Royal since the update so I don't know how other stances are doing, but I am quite confident that they have added not only more movement into the base stance, but also timing a butt scoot in their correctly gives even more movement. Keep in mind we are getting the ability to do combos in the air, I really doubt movement is going to be more restricted with 3.0. 55 minutes ago, Cryssoberyl said: Melee weapons no longer have "momentum", i.e. immunity to staggers and knockdowns while attacking. This... is a nerf we have kind of known has been coming. DE has been coy about momentum since we first heard about Melee 3.0. My opinion? I gotta see. Given how massively overhauled everything is with Melee 3.0 not having momentum may not be that bad... may. Melee is being completely reworked, it is looking like a grounds up re-code from what DE has shown. If there are weird leaks of code getting through and messing with Melee 2.0 is possible, but to expect that those leaks would have intended or representative effects is tin-foil hat worthy. In other words, this kind of seems like a poorly founded DOOOM thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSG501 Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 (edited) 7 minutes ago, DrBorris said: I will admit, I have been pretty much using exclusively Tempo Royal since the update so I don't know how other stances are doing, but I am quite confident that they have added not only more movement into the base stance, but also timing a butt scoot in their correctly gives even more movement. Keep in mind we are getting the ability to do combos in the air, I really doubt movement is going to be more restricted with 3.0. Same here with tempo royal (paracesis...) You can actually tell the difference quite easily when using nezha with it's extra sliding. Having said that comparing nezha to nova and I feel that it's not quite so fluid, that lack of grip that nezha has makes a considerable difference imo and while nezha is maybe a little too easy to overshoot, without it seems a bit 'sticky' in terms of distance. To be fair though, mixing and matching two melee 'methodologies' is never going to work right so until we get the full rework we'll just have to wait and see what the end result is going to be. Although I'm not sure on if I'll like the rework I'll at least wait till it's out to complain if needed... not that it will make any difference once it's been changed. Edited October 15, 2018 by LSG501 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saturmorn_Carvilli Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 9 minutes ago, DrBorris said: I will admit, I have been pretty much using exclusively Tempo Royal since the update so I don't know how other stances are doing, but I am quite confident that they have added not only more movement into the base stance, but also timing a butt scoot in their correctly gives even more movement. Keep in mind we are getting the ability to do combos in the air, I really doubt movement is going to be more restricted with 3.0. I pretty much only use Cleaving Whirlwind with my heavy blades and I can tell you that Sundered Tusk seems to be more of a pain as the leap feels much further than before. I am jumping over targets a lot more than I ever remember doing before. There does seem to be a bit of a pause before the leap though, so at least I can aim it. Broken Bull seems to work even better though. I can't tell if is the weapon (Gram Prime and Paracesis), my own ability or a melee change, however; I seem to be struggling a little more to pull off this combo too. I used the Galatine Prime for quite some time and could easily activate Broken Bull, but with the new heavy blades I seem to keep Sunder Tusk instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trst Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 On 2018-10-12 at 8:56 AM, [DE]Megan said: As we say with all Mainlines, we can’t catch everything that may fall through the cracks, meaning you may see some WIP or unintentional things that are not meant to be live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisztomaniac Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 (edited) il y a 41 minutes, DrBorris a dit : Cool, a bug with a system that is being completely removed, this is extremely telling of where DE is going, I am sure their intent is for 'Devil Trigger' mode is that you stand still. /s I will admit, I have been pretty much using exclusively Tempo Royal since the update so I don't know how other stances are doing, but I am quite confident that they have added not only more movement into the base stance, but also timing a butt scoot in their correctly gives even more movement. Keep in mind we are getting the ability to do combos in the air, I really doubt movement is going to be more restricted with 3.0. This... is a nerf we have kind of known has been coming. DE has been coy about momentum since we first heard about Melee 3.0. My opinion? I gotta see. Given how massively overhauled everything is with Melee 3.0 not having momentum may not be that bad... may. Melee is being completely reworked, it is looking like a grounds up re-code from what DE has shown. If there are weird leaks of code getting through and messing with Melee 2.0 is possible, but to expect that those leaks would have intended or representative effects is tin-foil hat worthy. In other words, this kind of seems like a poorly founded DOOOM thread. a little harsh but yes, overall i have been feeling melee more satisfactory than before, sliding while fighting felt weird, but it forces you to take your combos into consideration, in the same vein i feel the combos now take better imput, if there is something i would like on melee 3.0, would be a cap as to how much attack speed your weapon can have, it really ruins the feel of a two hander when you swing it as fast as a dagger, but players are left with no choice since berzerk is a thing and not using it is crippling yourself, also primed fury. im guessing as long as ludicrous attack speeds exists, DE wont be able to make melee combos fun to implement. Edited October 16, 2018 by Lisztomaniac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)Architect Prime Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 Oh no, it's challenge! Somebody call a doctor! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WindigoTG Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, Cryssoberyl said: Melee attacks no longer respect sprinting and/or other speed boosts in determining the distance they can travel. What does it even mean? #bjmasterrace Edited October 16, 2018 by WindigoTG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormy505 Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 25 minutes ago, (XB1)Architect Prime said: Oh no, it's challenge! Somebody call a doctor! whatever you're on i want some. how does this add challenge to the game? adding challenge to the game would be making the enemies tougher not making us weaker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)Architect Prime Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 48 minutes ago, stormy505 said: adding challenge to the game would be making the enemies tougher not making us weaker. Actually, both methods are valid way to make a game harder. HOWEVER, I would much rather have the enemies buffed than the players nerfed. People are acting like having the game be a little harder is bad. It's the the way they're doing it tat's bad. The goal is still noble though. Kind of a Thanos-y kind of situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrokinMaiden Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 4 hours ago, Cryssoberyl said: Ever since Update 23, despite stressing that no melee gameplay updates were intended yet, several unlisted changes to melee mechanics took place. Among them: Channeling can only be done standing still, not moving. Melee attacks no longer respect sprinting and/or other speed boosts in determining the distance they can travel. Melee weapons no longer have "momentum", i.e. immunity to staggers and knockdowns while attacking. To my shock, almost nothing has been said of these changes, the latter two in particular despite them being a crippling blow to melee gameplay on the most fundamental level. Without the influence of speed boosts, almost every weapon has lost a huge amount of its movement potential, instead often being stuck completely in place while attacking. Far worse however is the momentum change. If this is, as has been rumored, one of Melee 3.0's "improvements", it must be spoken out against now. It is a staggering nerf to the viability of melee, making it virtually impossible to attack effectively in crowded areas without being constantly staggered and knocked down. If you somehow have not yet noticed these changes, I urge you to take a hard look at how the performance of your melee weapons has changed and speak out both here and elsewhere. The ability to cover ground while attacking, and the resistance to CCs while doing so are cornerstones of the usability of melee as a system, and they must not be removed. just posted on this but i noticed since yesterday the bounties from konzu in cetus keeps putting me in random bounties i didnt que for. go in for trilodon, end up in a grp of ppl doing a normal bounty... frustrating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrokinMaiden Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, DrBorris said: Cool, a bug with a system that is being completely removed, this is extremely telling of where DE is going, I am sure their intent is for 'Devil Trigger' mode is that you stand still. /s I will admit, I have been pretty much using exclusively Tempo Royal since the update so I don't know how other stances are doing, but I am quite confident that they have added not only more movement into the base stance, but also timing a butt scoot in their correctly gives even more movement. Keep in mind we are getting the ability to do combos in the air, I really doubt movement is going to be more restricted with 3.0. This... is a nerf we have kind of known has been coming. DE has been coy about momentum since we first heard about Melee 3.0. My opinion? I gotta see. Given how massively overhauled everything is with Melee 3.0 not having momentum may not be that bad... may. Melee is being completely reworked, it is looking like a grounds up re-code from what DE has shown. If there are weird leaks of code getting through and messing with Melee 2.0 is possible, but to expect that those leaks would have intended or representative effects is tin-foil hat worthy. In other words, this kind of seems like a poorly founded DOOOM thread. i assumed it was a nerf but this basically means as long as ur not fussed about channeling (who is?) or performing combos and just want the fastest melee method, you simply dont even equip melee and use "quick melee" to keep moving/pwning. im not enjoying stopping dead with every swing of a weapon. Edited October 16, 2018 by Munkeefluffer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)Architect Prime Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 Let's just see how it turns out and then judge it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyValkyr Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 Noticed some of the oddities myself. When you play melee as much as I do, you just know when something you've played for 2 & half years, feels weird and wonky. Been having exactly this feeling - and can confirm some of the observations in this topic (OP's post). This better not be a sign of what's coming with melee 3.0. While these changes are not entirely 'gamebreaking', they are a nuisance. So far, it truly looks that melee rework = nerf of melee. Not a fan. Hopefully we'll get relevant informations about this, so people who love and enjoy melee can actually work with something else than horrid assumptions and horror stories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5H4DE Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 They are slipups that weren't meant to be here with our current melee system, of course they don't work well. Wait until actual Melee 3.0 comes and test it for a week or so will you? After that you can come and complain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)obsidiancurse Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 14 minutes ago, TheRealShade said: They are slipups that weren't meant to be here with our current melee system, of course they don't work well. Wait until actual Melee 3.0 comes and test it for a week or so will you? After that you can come and complain. And by then it’s too late. better to voice concerns now, so if, IF, this is what they intend they know it’s not liked. If it isn’t what they intend, no harm done and still feedback as to what players want from melee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvelous_A Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 They are just glitches not melee 3.0 unless DE tells us otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyValkyr Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 (edited) 19 minutes ago, (PS4)obsidiancurse said: And by then it’s too late. better to voice concerns now, so if, IF, this is what they intend they know it’s not liked. If it isn’t what they intend, no harm done and still feedback as to what players want from melee. Quoted for truth. So far, the changes (and hints of them) do not bode well for Melee 3.0. -Potential removal of scaleability (Removing Combo Crit/Status/Dmg stacking from normal attacks) -Reduced range in a game, when it'll render melee mediocre, similar to other games of the same genre/flow, see below. -Connected to the above - lesser capability of AoE, in a game, that basically needs AoE capability in some form, in order to be functional and viable, and without being limited to very few specific setups/Warframes. And that's just very few things, that, based on the informations and things seen in Devstream (range mod changes & how they apply a flat value instead of what we have now, very likely resulting in huge nerf to longer-range weapons). How does this make melee any more fun and still viable in the game? I will of course test once the system is out, but unless we get new informations, this is what I know so far, and what I base my analysis on. Just because a feature is not released, it doesn't mean I can't have an opinion. People, who know ins and outs of certain mechanics can extrapolate what it may mean for the Melee 3.0. If there's a way to speak up, and somehow prevent entirely destroying what's been an incredible fun, that's what I'll do, within reason, and with logical arguments, based on current informations. Should the situation change and new informations are provided, rest assured, I will change my opinion based on those. PS: I linked both topics in the General discussion to dev workshop regarding melee. Let's speak up, we really should. (within reason and civility). Edited October 16, 2018 by CrazyValkyr added link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeron216 Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 (edited) Was about to create my own post because for sure melee right now is way more restrictive. Player input means nothing now since you cover the same ground distance no matter what. Before this disastrous update the direction and distance of your melee combos were affected by your Sprint Speed and WASD input. During some combo animations you even stop dead on the spot, completely ruins the pace of the game. The removal of momentum was also an incredibly stupid change, I thought they wanted melee only builds to also be viable (Sword Alone)? Getting Crowd Controlled the whole time while performing combos is just frustrating and completely ruins the fluidity and pace of the game. For a Horde based game we need speed and fluidity. Having to stand still to perform combos, charging attacks and blocking is terrible. And replacing our movement speed with "gap closers" is definitely not the answer. People need to be vocal right now because I highly doubt this is all just mistakes. Edited October 16, 2018 by Aeron216 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toran Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 (edited) Gonna test this later with Harrow. Harrow + Non-Stop Channeling = no-brainer. Channeling and just standing still = braindead. I can't tell about a momentum loss since I'm using polearm (shimmering blight): thanks to the extreme range enemies are usually dead before they can melee-hit me in return. About Melee 3.0, let's wait till it's there (hopefully late). If it becomes a Swords to Ploughshares mod, it's back to [Ordis' voice] "Gun, Gun, Gun!..." So far the Melee 3.0 demos in dev streams were far from impressive. All but fancy, ineffective moves... slowing down the typical frenziful Warframe gameplay to an unacceptable level. But hey, it isn't final yet! Melee 3.0 and how to deal with it. Edited October 16, 2018 by Toran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeron216 Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 Yeah so far all what has been show to us are fancy yet completely ineffective movesets during Devstreams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minidelight Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 43 minutes ago, Aeron216 said: Yeah so far all what has been show to us are fancy yet completely ineffective movesets during Devstreams. all style no substance. typical of DE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seprent Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 with how inconsistency i've encountered these things im going on the side of bugs over actual melee changes mainlines are always unstable for lack of a better word just try to keep it out of the realm of dev bashing assuming these things are 100% intended by DE for melee 3.0 is a bit absurd just thought id voice some reason based off my experience with what op has listed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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