DE Can we please get the Arca Plasmor bounce back?

[Aashuaa]

I was never particularly big on the Arca Plasmor if I'm being honest, It was fun for the first couple of days but the FX were boring to me and the gameplay was kinda stale.

Last week you guys updated the FX and made it look awesome, and you also apparently shipped a bug that let the shot bounce.

I gotta say that this weekend had been some of the most fun I had had with any shotgun in Warframe and far and beyond the most fun I'd had with the Plasmor. Doing trickshots and seeing the crazy vfx as my multishots blasted off in different directions was an absolute delight. Would you please consider bringing it back it seemed way more inline with the weapon then say the deal with headshots , which I can totally understand why you changed.

If it cant be added baseline (which I really can't see why, it didn't really seem way more powerful it just felt more fun), could it at the very least come back as like a Suda mod attached to some other minor bonus, or amped up either further.

[NekroArts]

delete

Edited October 16, 2018 by NekroArts

[Aashuaa]

why?

[XaoGarrent]

I really don't understand the dev's hatred of the Plasmor at all when weapons like the Ignis Wraith and Tigris Prime exist. Especially the Ignis Wraith, which has direct parallels that demonstrate the failings of the Arca Plasmor. I actually thought the bouncing was intentional as paired with the Staticor changes, It seemed like this was an attempt to bring other corpus AoE weapons more in line performance and reliability wise with the likes of the Lenz, which has been since its release and probably still is the undisputed king of AoE primaries in Warframe (You could make a case for the Ignis edging it out a little in tight spaces).

Look at it this way:

Both the Ignis Wraith and the Arca Plasmor have similar range and infinite punch through against enemies, but the Arca Plasmor is a projectile instead of a beam, has substantial damage falloff and is easily interrupted by Terrain, while the Ignis is direct damage and in the presence of tight corridors, pillars and uneven flooring still will reliably hit things near its maximum range. Y'know... Where the Plasmor will, inevitably, fizzle as the very edge of the projectile slightly clips some terrain.

While the Arca Plasmor's base damage is more than double that of the Ignis Wraith, the Ignis Wraith has exceptional armor stripping capability in addition to moderately good critical stats. The Ignis Wraith is a complete weapon, all its mechanics work together nicely with its stats, whereas the Plasmor has a cripplingly low crit multiplier and is evidently meant to be a status shotgun despite having a painfully slow fire rate. Add to that the fact the Wraith has a wonderfully deep magazine (as any good flamethrower should) and a reload that is a full second (!) shorter and you're looking at insult added to injury and stuck asking a lot of questions.

Paired with a lack of a headshot multiplier (which the Ignis still has by the way) the Plasmor is already far, far behind the Ignis Wraith, despite being a full MR higher. Without a Riven, the weapon falls off exceptionally hard due to enemy scaling, and even with a Riven typically wants a frame like Nezha or Rhino that can buff its damage due to just having absolutely no way to multiply damage and scale into endgame. It is effectively the primary version of pre-nerf Ember, in that it's an awkward weapon that clears Starchart well and can kinda Sortie but is just outdone in every single way by better stated weapons with more reliability.

It's fine if they want to keep the headshot multiplier gone off the weapon, but it needs something more, some substantial extra gimmick, if it's to be at all competitive against other MR8+ weapons. Like, y'know, maybe being able to bounce off terrain. It's always frustrating when the devs "fix" something that was already a fix to something else.

[Vox_Preliator]

18 minutes ago, XaoGarrent said:

I really don't understand the dev's hatred of the Plasmor at all when weapons like the Ignis Wraith and Tigris Prime exist. Especially the Ignis Wraith, which has direct parallels that demonstrate the failings of the Arca Plasmor. I actually thought the bouncing was intentional as paired with the Staticor changes, It seemed like this was an attempt to bring other corpus AoE weapons more in line performance and reliability wise with the likes of the Lenz, which has been since its release and probably still is the undisputed king of AoE primaries in Warframe (You could make a case for the Ignis edging it out a little in tight spaces).

Look at it this way:

Both the Ignis Wraith and the Arca Plasmor have similar range and infinite punch through against enemies, but the Arca Plasmor is a projectile instead of a beam, has substantial damage falloff and is easily interrupted by Terrain, while the Ignis is direct damage and in the presence of tight corridors, pillars and uneven flooring still will reliably hit things near its maximum range. Y'know... Where the Plasmor will, inevitably, fizzle as the very edge of the projectile slightly clips some terrain.

While the Arca Plasmor's base damage is more than double that of the Ignis Wraith, the Ignis Wraith has exceptional armor stripping capability in addition to moderately good critical stats. The Ignis Wraith is a complete weapon, all its mechanics work together nicely with its stats, whereas the Plasmor has a cripplingly low crit multiplier and is evidently meant to be a status shotgun despite having a painfully slow fire rate. Add to that the fact the Wraith has a wonderfully deep magazine (as any good flamethrower should) and a reload that is a full second (!) shorter and you're looking at insult added to injury and stuck asking a lot of questions.

Paired with a lack of a headshot multiplier (which the Ignis still has by the way) the Plasmor is already far, far behind the Ignis Wraith, despite being a full MR higher. Without a Riven, the weapon falls off exceptionally hard due to enemy scaling, and even with a Riven typically wants a frame like Nezha or Rhino that can buff its damage due to just having absolutely no way to multiply damage and scale into endgame. It is effectively the primary version of pre-nerf Ember, in that it's an awkward weapon that clears Starchart well and can kinda Sortie but is just outdone in every single way by better stated weapons with more reliability.

It's fine if they want to keep the headshot multiplier gone off the weapon, but it needs something more, some substantial extra gimmick, if it's to be at all competitive against other MR8+ weapons. Like, y'know, maybe being able to bounce off terrain. It's always frustrating when the devs "fix" something that was already a fix to something else.

...I don't understand.  The Arca Plasmor still wrecks all sorts of face.  There was never a time when it wasn't crazy powerful, including now.

It was doing fine before it had bouncing, it's still fine.  Removing it didn't "ruin" anything and bouncing didn't increase its killing power a noticeable amount compared to how much it already had.

Bouncing was fun, yeah, so how about we use that as the argument to keep it instead of blathering on about how "weak" this just-straight-up-delete-everything-in-that-direction cannon is without it?

[XaoGarrent]

Just now, Vox_Preliator said:

...I don't understand.  The Arca Plasmor still wrecks all sorts of face.  There was never a time when it wasn't crazy powerful, including now.

It was doing fine before it had bouncing, it's still fine.  Removing it didn't "ruin" anything and bouncing didn't increase its killing power a noticeable amount compared to how much it already had.

Bouncing was fun, yeah, so how about we use that as the argument to keep it instead of blathering on about how "weak" this just-straight-up-delete-everything-in-that-direction cannon is without it?

I explained why you're wrong in my post.

[Vox_Preliator]

1 minute ago, XaoGarrent said:

I explained why you're wrong in my post.

Really, what your post was saying is that the Ignis Wraith should be reigned in some, and less that this unholy plasma cannon of of annihilation should be brought up to it's level.

[XaoGarrent]

1 minute ago, Vox_Preliator said:

Really, what your post was saying is that the Ignis Wraith should be reigned in some, and less that this unholy plasma cannon of of annihilation should be brought up to it's level.

That is what it would read like to someone that doesn't do what little end game we have, yes.

EDIT: Let me go into more detail here.

To someone with an actual clue about the balance, your post reads like the start of a slippery slope into a nerf spiral. The Ignis Wraith is only used as an example because it's well known and has a great deal of parity with the Arca Plasmor in areas that allow for a good compare and contrast. You could replace it with a number of other weapons, it's just harder to compare with the plasmor specifically. If we were talking about the Lenz, for instance, I'd focus more on launchers rather than AoE line weapons.

In reality, the Ignis Wraith is but one of many good weapons that now exist, so unless you're prepared to engage in some good old circular nerfing, specifically that which undoes most of the changes made in the recent weapon pass, as well as hit a few new weapons (Phantasma is easily on par) you should rethink your entire understanding of the game's balance. There's even an argument for the Corinth being better than the Plasmor, discounting rivens, and the Corinth is a weapon that everyone's kinda realizing we gave waaaaaaay too much credit to initially.

Hitting the Ignis goes against so much of the current direction of the game, that you'd have to make a much larger and more complicated argument for such a suggestion to make any kind of sense whatsoever. You'd have to argue against balancing around MR, or at least the width of the current power spectrum, you'd have to argue against making new end game content that can easily surpass level 100 enemies, which seems to be an outstanding focus of the devs, you'd have to argue for reworking the game's scaling (which is an actual valid idea with many merits) but it would also mean a renewed focus on the existing Starchart which would be basically an upraised middle finger to veterans of the game.

You can't balance in a vacuum. Every item of balance in a game exists in a sort of six degrees of separation relationship, and so you can't go about aimlessly tugging at loose threads. Because eventually you will cause the whole thing to unravel, and you'll do it while angering your customers the entire time.

Edited October 16, 2018 by XaoGarrent

[Aashuaa]

5 minutes ago, Vox_Preliator said:

Really, what your post was saying is that the Ignis Wraith should be reigned in some, and less that this unholy plasma cannon of of annihilation should be brought up to it's level.

The ignis has been awful for ages before the beam rework relegated to being ember in a can we please to not nerf it back to that.

I'm neither here nor there on a straight buff to plasmor, but it would be very nice to see the bounce back simply because yeah, it was fun af

[Wolfways]

I find it difficult to compare it to any other weapon because I haven't found another weapon which is as ridiculously op as the arca plasmor. Are there any other weapons that instantly destroy everything in a corridor with a single click?

[_.Primed_Vibrator._]

9 minutes ago, Wolfways said:

I find it difficult to compare it to any other weapon because I haven't found another weapon which is as ridiculously op as the arca plasmor. Are there any other weapons that instantly destroy everything in a corridor with a single click?

In arbitrations even with a +90% MS riven combined for a build that deal 25k damage per trigger pull not-crit, you still can't clear enemies, especially grinners, that fast.
If you are talking low level stuff, sure. But lots of things has similar or even greater effect to Plasmor.
If you say it is "ridiculously op" then certainly you haven't played much. 

[Aashuaa]

23 minutes ago, Wolfways said:

I find it difficult to compare it to any other weapon because I haven't found another weapon which is as ridiculously op as the arca plasmor. Are there any other weapons that instantly destroy everything in a corridor with a single click?

If we are going purely one tap that's probably relegated to Plasmor, Tigris Prime with punch through, Zarr, Lenz, Opticor, and any melee with decent range, crit mult, and maiming strike slapped on it.

If However we expand the list to weapons that can kill the entire hallway pressing and holding a button in the time it takes for plasmor to fire its second shot though the list adds.

Ignis Wraith, Atomos, Quanta Vandal with punch through, Astilla, Supra Vandal with punch through, Kohm with a riven, Pyrana Prime, and either of the Prisma Grakatas with punch through.

And ofcourse special mention to the Amprex which has killed every enemy in this hallway and the next two.

I should also note almost all these weapons then proceed to scale up and beyond the point Plasmor is instagibbing things and continue to be extremely useful with the notable exception of pyrana prime which also falls off like a rock at higher levels even with its ridiculous disposition.

Nonetheless my point on the Plasmor was that the buff was mostly just fun and not a ridiculous power increase so I don't see why it must be banished.

Edited October 16, 2018 by Aashuaa

[XaoGarrent]

29 minutes ago, Wolfways said:

I find it difficult to compare it to any other weapon because I haven't found another weapon which is as ridiculously op as the arca plasmor. Are there any other weapons that instantly destroy everything in a corridor with a single click?

Clever, but if you're going to argue in bad faith you have to up your game when I'm around.

Try "single shot" instead of "single click," as it disqualifies a much larger subsection of good weapons that outperform the Plasmor at high levels, and are almost as good or even better through starchart. Basically, constrain your arbitrary criteria with language that no other weapon can easily fit into, else people will automatically start thinking about automatics that can do the same.

Also, don't use "corridor" to fluff the Plasmor's AoE performance. That's actually really, really bad because tight corridors have a unique issue with the Plasmor due to its projectile size being so large. Same goes with Nezha's chakram, too, so people are very, very aware of the difficulty in using large projectiles effectively in small spaces with lots of obstructions. Even smaller projectiles from launchers have issues with this, especially when there's some amount of multishot and spread involved.

[.Fire_Fly.]

It was so much fun it was perfect it made using it just that much better, bring it back it was soo nice.

[XaoGarrent]

On a more positive note, it occurred to me that this was a Bob Ross moment that went wasted. As such, this is a relevant response to the uh... "Fix," they applied to the Arca Plasmor.

[Aashuaa]

I'm a simple man I see Bob Ross, I upvote

[BloodAppraiser]

Yay, no one mentioned amprex. Let's keep it that way. Shhhh........ 🤫

[Aashuaa]

4 hours ago, Aashuaa said:

If we are going purely one tap that's probably relegated to Plasmor, Tigris Prime with punch through, Zarr, Lenz, Opticor, and any melee with decent range, crit mult, and maiming strike slapped on it.

If However we expand the list to weapons that can kill the entire hallway pressing and holding a button in the time it takes for plasmor to fire its second shot though the list adds.

Ignis Wraith, Atomos, Quanta Vandal with punch through, Astilla, Supra Vandal with punch through, Kohm with a riven, Pyrana Prime, and either of the Prisma Grakatas with punch through.

And ofcourse special mention to the Amprex which has killed every enemy in this hallway and the next two.

 

1 hour ago, BloodAppraiser said:

Yay, no one mentioned amprex. Let's keep it that way. Shhhh........ 🤫

Nah I could never forget the Amprex lmao. That things busted wide open and it should stay that way, I wish more weapons were that good.

 

 

[-VS-Airikr]

yeah the bounce was superfun and i honestly i was disappointed when they fixed it.

but this opens up the question to why Specters were allowed to have bouncy Arca Plasmor shots for all this time (until the fix).
They didnt bother with it? or just were never aware of it? Who knows.

Tbh i thought that they fixed plasmor having ricochets until they fixed it.

Edited October 16, 2018 by Airikr

[Azrael_V]

The bounce effect was unique and so much fun. It was a refreshing change to the weapon and to see it 'fixed' is really disappointing cos it was gold. I tested the new iteration and it seems the punch through is gone. Thats a crime too but at least the bounce made up for it. I hope DE reverts it back honestly.

Edited October 16, 2018 by Azrael_V

[Vox_Preliator]

12 hours ago, XaoGarrent said:

That is what it would read like to someone that doesn't do what little end game we have, yes.

EDIT: Let me go into more detail here.

To someone with an actual clue about the balance, your post reads like the start of a slippery slope into a nerf spiral. The Ignis Wraith is only used as an example because it's well known and has a great deal of parity with the Arca Plasmor in areas that allow for a good compare and contrast. You could replace it with a number of other weapons, it's just harder to compare with the plasmor specifically. If we were talking about the Lenz, for instance, I'd focus more on launchers rather than AoE line weapons.

In reality, the Ignis Wraith is but one of many good weapons that now exist, so unless you're prepared to engage in some good old circular nerfing, specifically that which undoes most of the changes made in the recent weapon pass, as well as hit a few new weapons (Phantasma is easily on par) you should rethink your entire understanding of the game's balance. There's even an argument for the Corinth being better than the Plasmor, discounting rivens, and the Corinth is a weapon that everyone's kinda realizing we gave waaaaaaay too much credit to initially.

Hitting the Ignis goes against so much of the current direction of the game, that you'd have to make a much larger and more complicated argument for such a suggestion to make any kind of sense whatsoever. You'd have to argue against balancing around MR, or at least the width of the current power spectrum, you'd have to argue against making new end game content that can easily surpass level 100 enemies, which seems to be an outstanding focus of the devs, you'd have to argue for reworking the game's scaling (which is an actual valid idea with many merits) but it would also mean a renewed focus on the existing Starchart which would be basically an upraised middle finger to veterans of the game.

You can't balance in a vacuum. Every item of balance in a game exists in a sort of six degrees of separation relationship, and so you can't go about aimlessly tugging at loose threads. Because eventually you will cause the whole thing to unravel, and you'll do it while angering your customers the entire time.

Holy cow this is hilarious.  I could dismantle this entire post one line at a time point out how every single thing you said is either outright wrong or would be detrimental to the health of the game to agree with, but it's not worth the effort.  Plus, you managed to completely miss what I did say and instead focused entirely on what you chose the hear.

Not to mention none of it is really relevant.  The bounce was fun, but didn't make the weapon noticeably stronger.  As it was fun, and didn't significantly impact balance, it should be returned.

Basing the argument that the bounce should be returned on that it is weaker without it doesn't work, because the bouncing barely, if anything, impacted its strength and overall effectiveness.  However, the bouncing added an entertaining dynamic to the weapon, making it more fun to use.

[Deejudanne]

14 hours ago, NekroArts said:

delete

 

14 hours ago, Aashuaa said:

why?

_

[Peter]

Ark Plasmor has always suffered, every update comes with something less, and not at all if she crosses enemies, Amprex, Ignis and other popular weapons do the same thing and still have the headshot multiplier.

Arca only has 1.6 CD's, 2.7 reload and have now removed the bounce.

They will soon remove the trigger as well.

With each update this weapon gets worse.

Congratulations DE.

[Wolfways]

13 hours ago, XaoGarrent said:

Clever, but if you're going to argue in bad faith you have to up your game when I'm around.

Try "single shot" instead of "single click," as it disqualifies a much larger subsection of good weapons that outperform the Plasmor at high levels, and are almost as good or even better through starchart. Basically, constrain your arbitrary criteria with language that no other weapon can easily fit into, else people will automatically start thinking about automatics that can do the same.

Also, don't use "corridor" to fluff the Plasmor's AoE performance. That's actually really, really bad because tight corridors have a unique issue with the Plasmor due to its projectile size being so large. Same goes with Nezha's chakram, too, so people are very, very aware of the difficulty in using large projectiles effectively in small spaces with lots of obstructions. Even smaller projectiles from launchers have issues with this, especially when there's some amount of multishot and spread involved.

I wasn't trying to be clever. I just said single click because that's what the weapon does. Click, everything in an area up to 30m away from you is dead. There's a reason my wife and daughter use the plasmor. During the starchart at least it's an I-win button.

 

Could you please explain this corridor problem that the plasmor has? I haven't experienced it.

[Peter]

1 hour ago, Wolfways said:

I wasn't trying to be clever. I just said single click because that's what the weapon does. Click, everything in an area up to 30m away from you is dead. There's a reason my wife and daughter use the plasmor. During the starchart at least it's an I-win button.

Just like almost all DPS frames and any AoE gun.