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Arbitrations - 20 minutes for Rotation A? 1300 endo for it? No, thank you!


Nitro747
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First of all, why the heck is that Stephano - Uranus defense map, with the 4 crio capsules  still in this game when they made another map that happens to be 15% less horrible than this one? (the enemies still get their AI turned off at random). That map is outdated and pretty much the pinnacle of how DE just keeps shipping broken things only to never touch on it ever again. This defense map takes twice as long to complete as any other defense map out there because the enemie's AI turns off and you have to run around the map like an idiot looking for a brain-dead grineer. And that's if you're not unlucky and you happened to have one enemy to spawn inside a rock, being completely impervious to anything :DD
 

Second of all, this game mode is getting old pretty fast and for obvious reasons. The bleedout is real. It's not really "new" content to begin with. It's just the same missions we have been playing since we started the game. With same mechanics (and bugs) from eons ago. The Warframe and weapon buffs are kinda fun on paper, but where is the challenge if you handle out so much power str to a warframe so it can kill ANYTHING it touches in a single second? But the worse of all is the reward system coupled with the rewards itself. I was in this boring defense mission that played exactly the same way as any other defense mission in the history of defense missions (having an "operative" to defend is not new, it happened since sorties and he has a ton of health so it doesnt really matter). I swear we were killing everything as fast as possible but since these "elite" missions are supposed to be "harder", they just throw in more enemies, which makes each wave take longer... on a map that is already taking longer to complete. And then you have to fight for 10 waves in 21 long minutes, instead of 5, to get the rotation reward and is... *drum rolls* 1300 endo and a yellow-painted nitain extract :clap:. Wow, amazing. And besides that I could get Ayatan sculptures. Or mods that aren't that good.

Can anyone spot what doesnt make sense here? Anyone? It's a mission that takes much longer than any other, with zero chance for failure, at high level enemies, with mini drones that makes enemies take longer to kill, but in which the reward is LESS than if I, like, just played some random excavation mission? In the very same mission time, if I played Hieracon, I could have got potentially even more endo, more credits and some relics, maybe even Axi relics to be the icing on the top of the cake. So giving us LESS for MORE effort AND TIME isn't how rewards work, DE. What even is the point of playing just the same mission I played 1000 times already, but receiving less rewards for it? Or worse: trivial rewards. 1300 endo is literally nothing for anyone who completed the whole star chart. People hate the Anasa sculpture as sortie reward. Only 1 out of the 6 mods "exclusive" to this game mode is actually worth getting. What the heck is even happening here? Oh, and I almost forgot: the yellow-painted Nitain that they call "Vitus Essence". They couldn't even afford to ask someone to draw a different icon for it, they just painted the old Nitain Extract yellow but I digress. That thing is used to buy Orbiter decorations, 1 bad mod, 1 ok-ish mod and some other cosmetics, but you need 15 of those "vitus essence". I'll pass. I can complete a sortie in less time, have actual fun and earn something useful like a potato, forma, kuva, rivens, you name it.

Trust me, I wouldnt be complaining if one of the two were true: normal rotation requirements (I could stop playing that mission sooner) OR having actual decent rewards. It's not like I'm saying they should wipe out the endo rewards, but at least add something that is actually worth literally dumping hours to get a chance to hold on. Add Kuva. Remove sculptures (none of them are even new, its such low effort, geez...), add something we can actually look at the drop table and think: "I WANT to try hard to have this 5% chance on rotation C. And I want to try it again! AND AGAIN". DE can be way more creative than that.

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Is this just a high-effort troll attempt?

The biggest draw behind Arbitrations is that although you have to take twice as long on each rotation, the rotation isn't AABC repeated, it's ABCCCCCCC with infinite C rotations afterwards. It's probably the best Endo farm in the game by far, and it's also a pretty good place to level gear and get resources. It's the same concept as Sanctuary Onslaught but done much better.

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Endo is pretty underwhelming. I wish the common rewards would change depending on who you are fighting. Example:

Vs grineer: common reward 1= kuva, common reward 2= orokin cells

Vs corpus: common reward 1= polymer bundles, common reward 2= nitain extract

Vs infested: common reward 1= plastids, common reward 2= Alad V coordinates

Vs corrupted: common reward 1= argon crystals, common reward 2= corrupted mod (the ones you get from orokin vaults)

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1 hour ago, --Dark_Rage-- said:

Without serious Kuva rewards Arbitrations are pointless waste of time.

After receiving all new mods from Arbitrations there is absolutely nothing to do there.

 

The only reason why someone might go back there is to test their builds against enemies in an actual combat but even that is a bit pointless.

 

Endo would be a fine reward if it wouldnt be this common and would be atleast 10K. Other than that they could put in 4K kuva bundles, 500K credits, 2K focus, a specter package (1 of each avaible specter unit), unique pizzas (now granting power stat bonuses).....seriously its not hard to.think of rewards what would get you want to go there, i dont know why DE has problems with it.

 

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32 минуты назад, Fallen_Echo сказал:

Endo would be a fine reward if it wouldnt be this common and would be atleast 10K

Considering the fact that this new mode is positioned as end-game content for "veterans", it's hard to beleive that old players have any problems with Endo supplies.

36 минут назад, Fallen_Echo сказал:

to test their builds against enemies in an actual combat

For this reason endless Void runs are much better in case of rewards.

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3 hours ago, Thanzilla said:

Endo is pretty underwhelming. I wish the common rewards would change depending on who you are fighting. Example:

Vs grineer: common reward 1= kuva, common reward 2= orokin cells

Vs corpus: common reward 1= polymer bundles, common reward 2= nitain extract

Vs infested: common reward 1= plastids, common reward 2= Alad V coordinates

Vs corrupted: common reward 1= argon crystals, common reward 2= corrupted mod (the ones you get from orokin vaults)

If endo is underwhelming you shouldn't need cells, you only need about 60 nitain total. Salad coordinates...

Endo only has 1 reasonable farming place outside of Arbitration, and it's the most boring farm in the game.

Corrupted mods while not that easy to find squads for, as is you dont need to.

Argon poly and plastids are easy to fram, and not that grindy.

Kuva we already have 2 options.

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2 hours ago, trndr said:

Kuva we already have 2 options.

So what? We already have many and better options for endo, like Vodyanoi Sedna. Kuva gain is abysmally slow compared to how much we need it, and it's the last resource you'll ever need because of those god rolls you go for. No point in not rolling for them, unless you dislike pressing that rolling button. Lol.

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6 hours ago, Thanzilla said:

Endo is pretty underwhelming. I wish the common rewards would change depending on who you are fighting. Example:

Vs grineer: common reward 1= kuva, common reward 2= orokin cells

Vs corpus: common reward 1= polymer bundles, common reward 2= nitain extract

Vs infested: common reward 1= plastids, common reward 2= Alad V coordinates

Vs corrupted: common reward 1= argon crystals, common reward 2= corrupted mod (the ones you get from orokin vaults)

So make the rewards even less desirable and good?

Out of everything you listed only Kuva is better than Endo, and even then just barely.
Orokin Cells?  Of which you only need 634 in the entire game to build everything?  And with how common they are you already end up with thousands....
Polymer bundles?  Sure they are useful for pizzas, but drop so commonly that would be pretty much a "You get nothing!" reward, even if the mission gave 10K.
Nitain extract? You need a grand total of 162...after which that becomes another "You get nothing!" reward.
Plastids?  Yet another "This is so common and you get nothing!" and alad V coordinates drop in derelict missions often enough that you can easily farm up a few and then quickly get Mesa.  Especially with the recent cost lowering to only 1 coordinate per key.

I can at least use endo regularly, especially with all of the prime mods that DE insists on putting out.  And I can use endo to rank up a prime mod to max and sell it for plat.
Endo is always useful.
All of the rewards that you've listed on the other hand?  They would quickly become "You get absolutely nothing for this rotation!" and it would quickly become far worse than it currently is.

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8 minutes ago, BoarWarrior said:

So what? We already have many and better options for endo, like Vodyanoi Sedna. Kuva gain is abysmally slow compared to how much we need it, and it's the last resource you'll ever need because of those god rolls you go for. No point in not rolling for them, unless you dislike pressing that rolling button. Lol.

And you expect it would be faster than 7k kuva per 10 min interval?

7k kuva would be the best you could expect given how "endless kuva" got calibrated, and on top of that it would be given as a reward, so if you got kuva it wouldn't be affected by boosters, and even then it would reduce the endo so noone would farm endo in a fun way.

If you prefer standing on Vodyanoi with a nekros pumping kohm shots into a nidus ball, go do that, but in my oppinion that is not fun, and a game should be fun.

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2 hours ago, Tsukinoki said:

I can at least use endo regularly, especially with all of the prime mods that DE insists on putting out.  And I can use endo to rank up a prime mod to max and sell it for plat.
Endo is always useful.
 

Yes, there is no deny that Endo is always useful. But we already have tons of better, more efficient ways to get endo. If you are really a try-hard, you can farm on the Rathuum. You can easily get 2k endo from doing Hieracon. You can earn it in Sorties. You can earn it in Bounties. Even Sanctuary Onlsaught rewards Endo better than this game mode. And since this game mode is aimed at veterans who had to complete every single mission available, Endo isn't that useful anymore. By the time a new primed mod is out most veterans already earned twice the amount of Endo they need to max it.

It's really not about how useful or scarce endo is. Its about if its really appropriate to give 1300 endo for completing a challenge for 10~20 minutes. And the answer is: no, it's not; even if the quantity of endo wasnt a meagre 1300, it would still not be appropriate.

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10 hours ago, (PS4)Equinox21697 said:

Give them time to collect feedback and I'm sure they'll make improvements.

Or as someone else already said, it will become another dead, never touched again content. Much like 90% of this game's current content. And by the looks of it, this will become another of those instances.

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With the point I'm at in the game, endo's only purpose for me is maxing out primed mods when Baro shows up and selling them for plat that I have no use for. After that, I simply dissolve 1/4 of my heap of mods and wind up with more endo than I started with in the first place. Which reminds me, we need a "dissolve all above X quantity" button. Like dissolve all spares beyond 10 of each mod.

The longer rotations on old mission types just make them more tedious. The invincibility drones are just annoying. Making something invulnerable ARBITRARILY (haha, ha... get it? :vomit:) is just artificial difficulty, not challenge. There's been more than one thread about invuln-phases in the past as well.

Then there's the usual annoyances. MR4's and 5's (I don't even know how they're getting in), people trying to leech, people bailing, people bringing self damaging weapons.

The whole things encourages playing more cautiously and conservatively (i.e. boring) for a longer period of time, with rewards that "end game" players have little or no use for.

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17 hours ago, Nitro747 said:

add something we can actually look at the drop table and think: "I WANT to try hard to have this 5% chance on rotation C. And I want to try it again! AND AGAIN". DE can be way more creative than that.

the new mods are doing that role, because they are pretty imba and desirable right now, despite what you might think, with the benefit of only having to grind them once.

new game mode are not suppose to have better reward, not always. Rendering previous contents obsolete is a bad move for both the devs and the players (as you are now force to play this not-polished game mode because it have every better reward). 

edit: also, the idea of playing a 280%range frost with 360%strength and oneshot lvl 280 enemy with a lato is enough of a reward for a lot of ppl, you can hardly do that anywhere else beside this. The real reward don't always show in the drop table.

Edited by FireSegment
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If you do not have enough endo as a veteran then im not sure what to say. Ive been overloaded on Endo for YEARS. And I have all the prime and umbral mods max'd. Heck, almost every single mod max'd. Endo can be gotten in every other part of the game. Kuva cannot. The only skinner currency that I could possibly use is Kuva. I do not think I am alone.

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2 hours ago, FireSegment said:

the new mods are doing that role, because they are pretty imba and desirable right now, despite what you might think, with the benefit of only having to grind them once.

new game mode are not suppose to have better reward, not always. Rendering previous contents obsolete is a bad move for both the devs and the players (as you are now force to play this not-polished game mode because it have every better reward). 

edit: also, the idea of playing a 280%range frost with 360%strength and oneshot lvl 280 enemy with a lato is enough of a reward for a lot of ppl, you can hardly do that anywhere else beside this. The real reward don't always show in the drop table.

Putting mods as this role ends up becoming a problem rather than a solution. Just like adding mods like "ammo drum" in a reward rotation. Once you get that mod, you're done. There's nothing you can do with 300 ammo drums. Or 3 "Sharpshooter" mods besides dissolving them. "Oh, but you can sell it". Ok, I can, but selling stuff is a chore, and those mods are already devaluating fast in the market. Not to mention how only one of the mods is actually worth it. The second least worse of the batch can be acquired from the vendor, so I don't necessarily need to push myself to 5 rotation C's.

So, again, its a meagre amount of endo, ayatan sculptures or mods (facepalm internally) being the only rewards in a game mode where you play the same missions you've ever played from the first 10 minutes of this game except you can't die a single time and some enemies are occasionally buffed by a drone that is actually a CTRL+C CTRL+V of that Arbiter's head (low effort at its finest). That's it? It's not like it's not necessarily fun, but this thing will get old really fast. It already is. I played a few times and already am almost over with it. I do intend to drag myself a couple more times to provide feedback, but if things will remain as is, it will be again another unremarkable game mode.

Also, in my opinion in this case, what is really challenging was LOR Nightmare mode. You had to have a 8 man team who knew exactly what to do and there was a big incentive to do it as fast and efficient as possible. You could find rare crates for rare loot, you earned a load of credits, you could get warframe and weapon parts that would otherwise be a bit harder to get. Having a bunch of lvl 70 enemies with an "invincible" drone really isn't challenging, but at least the one-life makes me pay a bit more attention to the game.

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This is what I mean: defense mission, +300% dmg on the amprex, had Nidus and Equinox on my team both with +300% pwr strength added... and it still took almost 17 minutes to reach rotation A! And what I earned from this? A single bottle of yellow-painted Nitain, which I need 15 of to buy a doll of a dude sitting or a bad mod. And an Ayatan sculpture worth around 800 Endo, 1500 if I fill it with Stars (which I'm already running low because of all those Anasa sculptures from Sorties).

The worst of all is that my teammates were so bored of that that they decided to leave on rotation A :facepalm:. I really can't blame them. I also was questioning myself if I wanted to spend another 20-ish minutes just to get another ayatan sculpture or more Endo.

 

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3 hours ago, Nitro747 said:

Putting mods as this role ends up becoming a problem rather than a solution. Just like adding mods like "ammo drum" in a reward rotation. Once you get that mod, you're done. There's nothing you can do with 300 ammo drums. Or 3 "Sharpshooter" mods besides dissolving them. "Oh, but you can sell it". Ok, I can, but selling stuff is a chore, and those mods are already devaluating fast in the market. Not to mention how only one of the mods is actually worth it. The second least worse of the batch can be acquired from the vendor, so I don't necessarily need to push myself to 5 rotation C's.

you missed my point, the fact that you won't need to run it again after getting the mod is an advantaged, it make you feel excited to play the mission when you know the mod is good, but it don't forced you to keep playing it again and again and again after you get it. 

edit: think of it as DE don't want the game mode to become like the Void fatigue, you will see my point.

And here's the problem with your post: you are comparing the slowest mission type of the game mode currently to hieracon and other existed method. From what i heard, infested salvage could take only 5 minute a rotation with a good squad, excavation are only a bit longer (and surely more endo than hieracon). It is a really unfair comparison, you can always choose to pass and not running a def arbitration if you don't think it worth your time.

Also, It doesn't matter what the amount of endo are, cuz as you said, veterans should already have more than enough endo to begin with, so what is your actual point here? You won't happy even if they do add more endo, you won't happy if DE add 900 kuva there to the drop table("wtf DE 2 run of kuva siphon don't take 20min" i imagine. Be realistic, they won't reward you any more than a kuva survival equivalent here), you wanted something new, DE did add new mod and a NPC vendor selling new stuff, ... that even sell cosmetic items ... Arbitration isn't raid, it is what it is, so remind me what would you add to this game mode drop table if you was DE? 

3 hours ago, Nitro747 said:

Also, in my opinion in this case, what is really challenging was LOR Nightmare mode. You had to have a 8 man team who knew exactly what to do and there was a big incentive to do it as fast and efficient as possible. You could find rare crates for rare loot, you earned a load of credits, you could get warframe and weapon parts that would otherwise be a bit harder to get. Having a bunch of lvl 70 enemies with an "invincible" drone really isn't challenging, but at least the one-life makes me pay a bit more attention to the game.

Arbitration was never advertise as the next raid, so expecting it to have the same or similar level of challenges mean it's not on DE. What selling it for the veterans from my point of view has always been the 300% buff stats for player specific gear, and an excuse to stay 1hr+ in a mission without consider it a waste of time (cuz afterward they at least become endo millionaires, the same idea as Index), or only able to do that in very specific mission with the same specific loadout every time. Heck i can see myself just jump into a pub arbitration just because it have the buff to a frame i want to test 300% strength with even after i already get everything it could offer. 

Edited by FireSegment
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2 minutes ago, FireSegment said:

you missed my point, the fact that you won't need to run it again after getting the mod is an advantaged, it make you feel excited to play the mission when you know the mod is good, but it don't forced you to keep playing it again and again and again after you get it. 

and here's the problem with your post: you are comparing the slowest mission type of the whole gamemode to a general hieracon or other existed method. From what i heard, infested salvage are only 5 minute a rotation with a good squad, excavation are only a bit longer (and surely more endo than hieracon every time). It is a really unfair comparison. 

Also, It doesn't matter what the amount are, cuz as you said, veterans should already more than enough endo to begin with, so what is your actual point here? You won't happy even if they do add more endo, you won't happy if DE put an 900 kuva there ("wtf DE 2 run of kuva siphon don't take 20min" i imagine. Be realistic, they won't reward you any more than a kuva survival equivalent here), you wanted something new, DE did add new mod and an NPC vendor selling new stuff, ... that even sell cosmetic item ... What is it that you trying to add here regarding the rewards? 

Arbitration was never advertise as the next raid, so expecting it to have the same or similar level of challenges are your problem. What selling it for the veteran from my point of view has always been the 300% buff stast for player specific gear, and an excuse to stay 1hr+ in a mission without consider it a waste of time (cuz afterward they at least become endo millionaires, the same idea as Index), or only in very specific mission with specific loadout every time. Heck i can see myself just jump into a pub arbitration just because it have the buff to a frame i want to test 300% strength with even after i grinded every it could offer already. 

I think you are the one having problems with text interpretation, check your english a bit, please, as it gets quite hard to read this wall of text with such weird phrasing. And yes, I got your point, but the point is that you don't get what Veterans mean when they ask for an endless challenging game mode. We really don't want to earn that one thing and be done with it. We want to carry on, and on. As I said, we want to reach that rotation C and get that reward we want and when we get that we want to do it again and again. A good example would be the dead Raids. It was something a load of us were doing on a daily basis. Every. Single. Day. Plague Star was one of the most successful events out there. It wasn't because the event was on PoE or because of the "exciting" boss fight (a re-painted Lephantis :facepalm:). It was because the rewards were worth it. And most above all, they were worth you repeating the same mission over and over again so you could get more and more of those rewards. Which is something completely lacking in Arbitration.

You want me to stop comparing Defense missions? Ok. Survival. 20 minutes. We got 3 bottles of yellow Nitain, a bad mod, 1300 endo and a Sah Sculpture. Your second paragraph is extremely hard to read but its kinda hard to understand how you can't wrap around the simple fact that these rewards are simply not worth the trouble of any veteran. Endo is a trivial resource for us. It's like adding Nitain Extract to the rotation table. It doesnt matter if it was 100 Nitain, we really wouldn't care about it. "oh hurr, bu-but you can farm endo". Yeah, we dont care about endo and even if we did, Hieracon is a better, faster option for Endo even if you are playing an Interception mission in Arbitration mode. As I said AGAIN, if the point really is to farm endo, I can just farm in Vodyanoi.

And duh, I know it wasn't advertised as Raids, I used LOR NM as an example of what can be really challenging in this game. So far Arbitration isn't near in terms of challenge, but at least it has the merit of not being as trivial as normal mission types, but that's it.

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17 minutes ago, FireSegment said:

you wanted something new, DE did add new mod and an NPC vendor selling new stuff, ... that even sell cosmetic item ... What is it that you trying to add here regarding the rewards?

Sorry but getting the same mission types we played since the first 10 minutes (defense, interception, etc), adding buffs, only one life and a small enemy drone that can easily be killed which makes enemies invincible isn't anything "new", to be honest. New cosmetics are a shrinked version of an existing in-game asset, a cut-out version of the Rift Sigil, etc... :facepalm:

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