Adaptation

[Klokwerkaos]

I have to say, this mod, at endgame levels with appropriate set ups... beyond the bugs we've already encountered with it...

even if it functioned as it "appears to have intended" it seems to be a game changing mod that is a bit more than broken.

This doesn't seem to be the intent though since the other arbitration mods are mostly situational trash or outright garbage clutter I'll burn for endo (self damage reduction that won't actually keep you alive from one shotting yourself?  lolwut?"

I might offer maybe make this cap at three damage types and replace with a new one one the oldest one runs out if it doesn't refresh.  That would at least give the mod SOME semblance of balance, or maybe reduce effectiveness to 50% instead of 90% or something...  literally any frame with 90% damage reduction and an arcane grace can just let hordes of enemies riot on their faces and they won't die until they get well over the hour mark.

With the self damage mod, maybe instead make it base 89% and scale up to 99%  that would at least make it sorta useful for somebody running a lenz that somehow managed to make it to endgame and farm this mod without learning how to not blow themselves up routinely and it would also give a new play style for zarr's and such to use it as a pbaoe and wouldn't that while not practical, be fun?

The other mods, they work ish, in certain situations, and that's fine.  I think they won't see much use other than for testing purposes but these two mods are supremely jacked in that one is worse than useless because it takes away a mod slot to do nothing to help you with what it's supposed to do, the other makes your already unkillable frames not even have to face tank but instead they can just afk never die, and that's problematic.

For people that love the new adaptation mod, I don't blame you, it's great... a little too great... a little game changing and breaking great to the point where if it doesn't get a hardcore nerf in the next few patches I will be overly surprised. 

[Peter]

I think this mod is OK, it's not that strong or weak, and using that in an Inaros or a Valk is a waste of the slot, it does what it should, you keep dying if you're careless.

But I agree that the other mods need to be reviewed, some are useless in all cases.

10 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

even if it functioned as it "appears to have intended" it seems to be a game changing mod that is a bit more than broken.

Arcane energize and guardian laughed at that.

Edited October 16, 2018 by Peter

[Baterial]

this mod doies not block all damage types from enemies so you still are not invincible

[Klokwerkaos]

I mean

1 minute ago, Peter said:

I think this mod is OK, it's not that strong or weak, and using that in an Inaros or a Valk is a waste of the slot, it does what it should, you keep dying if you're careless.

But I agree that the other mods need to be reviewed, some are useless in all cases.

I don't know man.  Try putting it on an umbral nidus which is nigh unkillable already even without a link.  Then add this in, swap it for hunter adrenaline and swap one of your arcane grace for arcane energize and you're basically allowed to be afk without a link, add a link on and lolwut?

I just think that this is flat-out broken.  Nidus is already a monster, he may not be A+ due to damage meta, but definitely unkillable, with this I could throw a link, literally go get a drink from the kitchen, come back and eat a sandwich while occasionally pressing 1 and 2 in an arbitration and be fine.  I just don't see that as doing anything but decreasing fun by destroying any possibility of challenge.

I'm actually waiting on testing this just because I'm expecting a hardcore nerf.

[Peter]

10 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

I mean

I don't know man.  Try putting it on an umbral nidus which is nigh unkillable already even without a link.  Then add this in, swap it for hunter adrenaline and swap one of your arcane grace for arcane energize and you're basically allowed to be afk without a link, add a link on and lolwut?

I just think that this is flat-out broken.  Nidus is already a monster, he may not be A+ due to damage meta, but definitely unkillable, with this I could throw a link, literally go get a drink from the kitchen, come back and eat a sandwich while occasionally pressing 1 and 2 in an arbitration and be fine.  I just don't see that as doing anything but decreasing fun by destroying any possibility of challenge.

I'm actually waiting on testing this just because I'm expecting a hardcore nerf.

That's the point, you're putting a resistance mod into frames that are already immortal, you should test before giving feedback xD

Now try this on frames like Banshee and Ember and you will understand the reason for this mod, this mod will end up with the meta of Inaros 8000 Life in any fcking high level mission.

Nerf that will be a mistake, tanks will continue tanks, but shield frames will be forgotten again.

And if it reduces your fun just do not use lol, Saryn took my fun (I was main Saryn), on the other hand there are people who have a lot of fun with her, I just do not use and I continue my life.

So far all the complaints I saw were from people who did not test, people who only read "90% of reduction" and did not bother to read how the mod works, I hope that DE does not make a fool of hearing these people.

Edited October 16, 2018 by Peter

[Klokwerkaos]

Just now, Peter said:

That's the point, you're putting a resistance mod into frames that are already immortal, you should test before giving feedback xD

Now try this on frames like Banshee and Ember and you will understand the reason for this mod, this mod will end up with the meta of Inaros 8000 Life in any fcking high level mission.

Nerf that will be a mistake, tanks will continue tanks, but shield frames will be forgotten again.

And if it reduces your fun just do not use lol, Saryn took my fun (I was main Saryn), I just do not use and I continue my life.

You should try saryn post 23.10.x it's actually quite good now and reduces the board wiping.

I think the mistake you're making is that we're supposed to have squishy shield frames because that helps balance out their DPS output, giving the tanks something to tank for them, while they destroy the enemy.

When you turn everything into more of a tank, you remove the tank role, and make DPS tank the only viable option.  There are other ways to make shield frames more survivable too, but making them full on tanks seems like a bad move.

The only reason to bring a tank in a proper group is to control the battle field so the squishes don't go down so they can clear the horde.  It's basic 101 MMO.  If you remove that job the only viable frames left are dps tanks, which at that point i'm wondering why not just just umbral oberon with adaptation for everything... heal, tank and aoe dps all in one... sounds overly dumb.

[Peter]

7 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

You should try saryn post 23.10.x it's actually quite good now and reduces the board wiping.

I think the mistake you're making is that we're supposed to have squishy shield frames because that helps balance out their DPS output, giving the tanks something to tank for them, while they destroy the enemy.

When you turn everything into more of a tank, you remove the tank role, and make DPS tank the only viable option.  There are other ways to make shield frames more survivable too, but making them full on tanks seems like a bad move.

The only reason to bring a tank in a proper group is to control the battle field so the squishes don't go down so they can clear the horde.  It's basic 101 MMO.  If you remove that job the only viable frames left are dps tanks, which at that point i'm wondering why not just just umbral oberon with adaptation for everything... heal, tank and aoe dps all in one... sounds overly dumb.

Test the mod ... you do not tank with Banshee, much less Ember, I call you Simulacrum to see how it works if you want.

Saryn continues ridiculous, but I prefer to keep it secret, anyone who reads the Wiki goes a long way.

Edited October 16, 2018 by Peter

[atejas]

If DE were worried about individual frames being able to tank too much damage, they would have nerfed Wukong or Assimilate Nyx already. I don't care if Inaros can afk sortie 3 for 10 minutes instead of 3 minutes, the actual good thing about this mod is that it makes frames like excal, harrow, and khora feel like they're not made out of paper at sortie 3 level.

14 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

I don't know man.  Try putting it on an umbral nidus which is nigh unkillable already even without a link.  Then add this in, swap it for hunter adrenaline and swap one of your arcane grace for arcane energize and you're basically allowed to be afk without a link, add a link on and lolwut?

It's a waste of a slot on Nidus because, like you said, he's already basically unkillable and gets several consecutive free lives.

4 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

The only reason to bring a tank in a proper group is to control the battle field so the squishes don't go down so they can clear the horde.

The frames that 'control the battlefield' in Warframe are cc frames. Limbo controls the battlefield. Inaros doesn't die. Tanking in warframe is, by itself, basically a selfish niche.

[Phael]

 

Hur hur, the game no longer has end game content, the only 'endgame' that the game has is elite mode, it seems that this mod is the only thing that saves you there, you will not use this mod in low lvl even because it has no meaning. you'll only use it when it's on high lvl mission, when you stay on missions over 1h to start coming mobs lvl 150+. then complain that the game does not have content end game, of course it will not have, all cry, everything ask nerf, what's the point of you building weapons and warframes if you have no place to test? since if the mission is lvl 60 already ask nerf. The Mod you reduce damage but does not get immortal, warframes more roles and that use shield finally became viable (goodbye quick think), it does not make sense, the mod is good the way it is, stop being casual players asking nerf in all

[Klokwerkaos]

6 minutes ago, atejas said:

The frames that 'control the battlefield' in Warframe are cc frames. Limbo controls the battlefield. Inaros doesn't die. Tanking in warframe is, by itself, basically a selfish niche.

I'm going to go ahead and disagree here.  There are no solely tank frames, each has some capacity for cc and support.  Some frames are better for certain situations.  Bringing the wrong frame to a particular situation is selfish, bringing a frame that can destroy the board, while that might seem selfish can also be very selfless too, if you're carrying people, and the basic rule of any pug is you go to carry or you go to fail.

I think this is just a line people have repeated for a long time unchallenged and it's not a very well thought out one.

Each frame has a niche.

[Klokwerkaos]

4 minutes ago, Phael said:

 

Hur hur, the game no longer has end game content, the only 'endgame' that the game has is elite mode, it seems that this mod is the only thing that saves you there, you will not use this mod in low lvl even because it has no meaning. you'll only use it when it's on high lvl mission, when you stay on missions over 1h to start coming mobs lvl 150+. then complain that the game does not have content end game, of course it will not have, all cry, everything ask nerf, what's the point of you building weapons and warframes if you have no place to test? since if the mission is lvl 60 already ask nerf. The Mod you reduce damage but does not get immortal, warframes more roles and that use shield finally became viable (goodbye quick think), it does not make sense, the mod is good the way it is, stop being casual players asking nerf in all

wow dude.  first, i'll assume english isn't your first language and let your very very messy syntax go.  second, calling me a casual when I have more time in the game (actual hours not steam) in than many if not most people who have been here since forever ever is kind of silly.  But hey, you go ahead with your bad self and make those declarations, show us your character with subsequent posts of this kind and I'm sure you'll get LOTS of attention from all the wrong places.

[atejas]

Just now, Klokwerkaos said:

I'm going to go ahead and disagree here.  There are no solely tank frames, each has some capacity for cc and support. 

And those are the parts of the kit that let them control the battlefield or help their allies. Wukong is the closest thing we have to a 'pure' tank and he's also widely regarded as one of, if not the, worst frame in the game. So my point is that tanking abilities exist to keep a frame alive so it can use the other parts of its kit, and giving other frames survivability puts them on a more even playing field with frames like eg- Nezha, who can both tank and support.

Frames that weren't hard tanks were all about a second of concentrated fire away from dying at sortie 3 level. Could Excal take about 2 seconds more than, say, Nova? Of course, but chip damage would ultimately kill you. I feel like Excal with adaptation is in a good spot where he can't mess around, but also isn't one bullS#&$ shot away from death in sortie 3.

[Peter]

1 minute ago, Phael said:

 

Hur hur, the game no longer has end game content, the only 'endgame' that the game has is elite mode, it seems that this mod is the only thing that saves you there, you will not use this mod in low lvl even because it has no meaning. you'll only use it when it's on high lvl mission, when you stay on missions over 1h to start coming mobs lvl 150+. then complain that the game does not have content end game, of course it will not have, all cry, everything ask nerf, what's the point of you building weapons and warframes if you have no place to test? since if the mission is lvl 60 already ask nerf. The Mod you reduce damage but does not get immortal, warframes more roles and that use shield finally became viable (goodbye quick think), it does not make sense, the mod is good the way it is, stop being casual players asking nerf in all

And we can not forget that any mod R10 unbalances the low level content, buy a quick thinking + R10 primed flow and you are immortal until the Void, buy R10 Redirection + Aegis and you unlock all the planets without taking 1 damage, I even did all the game missions using an unmoded Frost because I was noob and did not know how the game worked.

Now we have arcanes like Guardian, 600 of armor is a lot and if you use 2 you get 1200 of armor, I'm impressed that nobody asked nerf about it, ah wait, no one knows how the mitigation calculation works, with this you already ignore more than 75% of the damage.

The difference is that the Adaptation makes the shields viable, new expectations, and the reduction is not 90% of the final damage but rather the main damage of the enemy's weapon, if you take a Heavy Gunner it uses Gorgon, the biggest damage of it is 35% impact, you will be taking 3.5% of impact damage, you will continue to receive 68.5% of damage.

And as I said before, those who are complaining are people who have not tested or who have seen some youtuber, I have seen Tatical Potato using Nekros with Shield of Shadows and this mod, just to make it clear, my Nekros is immortal without Shield of Shadows or Adaptation, with Health Conversion + 1 Guardian you have 1950's armor, and use an Arcane Pulse.

I think people should test things before they judge, I REALLY hope the DE will not ruin this mod because of it.

[Phael]

7 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

wow dude.  first, i'll assume english isn't your first language and let your very very messy syntax go.  second, calling me a casual when I have more time in the game (actual hours not steam) in than many if not most people who have been here since forever ever is kind of silly.  But hey, you go ahead with your bad self and make those declarations, show us your character with subsequent posts of this kind and I'm sure you'll get LOTS of attention from all the wrong places.

Well, I'm sorry for my English, is that kind of posting makes me serious, you did not even test the mod to be speaking, you should have seen only talk, or watched video of warframes, which is your function to be tank

[Peter]

12 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

I'm going to go ahead and disagree here.  There are no solely tank frames, each has some capacity for cc and support.  Some frames are better for certain situations.  Bringing the wrong frame to a particular situation is selfish, bringing a frame that can destroy the board, while that might seem selfish can also be very selfless too, if you're carrying people, and the basic rule of any pug is you go to carry or you go to fail.

I think this is just a line people have repeated for a long time unchallenged and it's not a very well thought out one.

Each frame has a niche.

CC capacity in an Inaros? Wukong? Valkyr? these frames are useless, who picks them up because they do not want to die and the DE knows that.

Many MMO concepts do not apply here, Ember is pyromantic and takes 100% Fire damage, Frost can be frozen and Volt takes damage from Hydrolyst rays.

Edited October 16, 2018 by Peter

[Autongnosis]

It's not as universal or as broken as it sounds, it's still pretty high in effective power. 

The thing I'm interested the most is how and if it will be nerfed because i have a good 7 frames i want to put this on and I'd love a confirmation i won't have wasted formas and leveling time... 

il y a 1 minute, Peter a dit :

CC capacity in an Inaros? Wukong? Valkyr? these frames are useless, who picks them up because they do not want to die and the DE knows that.

Many MMO concepts do not apply here, Ember is pyromantic and takes 100% Fire damage, Frost can be frozen and Volt takes damage from Hydrolyst rays.

While i agree on the Wukong lack of CC, but let's face it, Wukong doesn't even have a kit currently, saying that Valkyr and Inaros have no CC is just preposterous. 

Valkyr has access to a nearly no cost 10 base meter cone AoE that staggers and augmented gives you plenty of hard CC, with a longass duration to boot. 

Inaros has two skills out of 4 literally built primarily for CC (1 and 3) and the other two have some secondary CC effect. Just wat. 

 

If one doesn't want to die they are actually a poor choice (barring Wukong). There are at least 4 frames that beat them by miles as far as surviveability goes. 

[Klokwerkaos]

4 minutes ago, Peter said:

And we can not forget that any mod R10 unbalances the low level content, buy a quick thinking + R10 primed flow and you are immortal until the Void, buy R10 Redirection + Aegis and you unlock all the planets without taking 1 damage, I even did all the game missions using an unmoded Frost because I was noob and did not know how the game worked.

Now we have arcanes like Guardian, 600 of armor is a lot and if you use 2 you get 1200 of armor, I'm impressed that nobody asked nerf about it, ah wait, no one knows how the mitigation calculation works, with this you already ignore more than 75% of the damage.

The difference is that the Adaptation makes the shields viable, new expectations, and the reduction is not 90% of the final damage but rather the main damage of the enemy's weapon, if you take a Heavy Gunner it uses Gorgon, the biggest damage of it is 35% impact, you will be taking 3.5% of impact damage, you will continue to receive 68.5% of damage.

And as I said before, those who are complaining are people who have not tested or who have seen some youtuber, I have seen Tatical Potato using Nekros with Shield of Shadows and this mod, just to make it clear, my Nekros is immortal without Shield of Shadows or Adaptation, with Health Conversion + 1 Guardian you have 1950's armor, and use an Arcane Pulse.

I think people should test things before they judge, I REALLY hope the DE will not ruin this mod because of it.

I don't believe this is accurate data.

I'm fairly certain each damage type gains a resistance up to 90% stacking.  it's not one damage type, you get a proc for each damage type, so it is efffectively 90% damage reduction after you take a few hits, up to most types of damage.  I could be wrong here, but all of the footage I've seen indicates otherwise.  I'm not against banshee and excal being able to take a hit or two, that's fine.  What I'm saying is that it shouldn't be a thing that tank frames become effectively invincible.

If anything that just makes wukong even worse because his one neat trick is now even more useless since 10 other frames can do it.  Poor monkey frame...

that said, with an umbral nidus I can still have a challenge if i work up a bit, not a huge one, but some.  the chances of me going down in an arbitration after a couple dozen hours is still 0%, but that's because I actually have to play the game to do that... if I can make it so I can just go make a sandwhich while occasionally spamming one, doesn't that seem problematic?

I'm not saying to nerf it necessary the way I suggested, but that the way it applies to nidus is just stupidly dumb.  That said, perhaps there is a more creative way to adjust the mod so it does the job of adding survivability to non tank frames while not making tank frames ultimately immortal with so much ehp that any form of regen will keep them alive forever.

[Klokwerkaos]

3 minutes ago, Autongnosis said:

It's not as universal or as broken as it sounds, it's still pretty high in effective power. 

The thing I'm interested the most is how and if it will be nerfed because i have a good 7 frames i want to put this on and I'd love a confirmation i won't have wasted formas and leveling time... 

While i agree on the Wukong lack of CC, but let's face it, Wukong doesn't even have a kit currently, saying that Valkyr and Inaros have no CC is just preposterous. 

Valkyr has access to a nearly no cost 10 base meter cone AoE that staggers and augmented gives you plenty of hard CC, with a longass duration to boot. 

Inaros has two skills out of 4 literally built primarily for CC (1 and 3) and the other two have some secondary CC effect. Just wat. 

 

If one doesn't want to die they are actually a poor choice (barring Wukong). There are at least 4 frames that beat them by miles as far as surviveability goes. 

I hear you, that's why I'm not testing it right now, what's the point if it's going to get nerfed hard?

I'd like to see it help surivability of frames without turning them into full on tanks but not making dps frames into unkillable while (can't even imagine how dumb this is on mesa) completely removing threat from any frame that is a bit tanky.

[Peter]

2 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

I don't believe this is accurate data.

You did not test the mod and say that to me?

Wait a bit, i'll print something for you.

[Peter]

4 minutes ago, Klokwerkaos said:

I hear you, that's why I'm not testing it right now, what's the point if it's going to get nerfed hard?

I'd like to see it help surivability of frames without turning them into full on tanks but not making dps frames into unkillable while (can't even imagine how dumb this is on mesa) completely removing threat from any frame that is a bit tanky.

I made two prints, the second after a minute, and I used Inaros because a squishy frame does not stand that long.

 

[atejas]

24 minutes ago, Peter said:

if you take a Heavy Gunner it uses Gorgon, the biggest damage of it is 35% impact

The Gorgon is 75% impact, unless damage spreads for enemy weapons are different than player weapons.

[Peter]

5 minutes ago, atejas said:

The Gorgon is 75% impact, unless damage spreads for enemy weapons are different than player weapons.

True, but I feel like I'm getting a lot more than 30% damage, and by doing the tests I've now got some corrosive procs coming from the Heavy Gunner.

Interesting, by the way enemy weapons are modified too, making calculations with wiki dada invalid.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

This is why we can’t have nice things

because people like you cry “OP please nerf”.

[Peter]

4 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

This is why we can’t have nice things

because people like you cry “OP please nerf”.

The funniest thing is that they did not even test, just read in the mod "90% reduction" and they think it's enough to give a feedback..

And I say one more time, I HOPE DE DOES NOT COMET THE MISTAKE OF RUIN THE MOD BECAUSE OF THESE GUYS.

Edited October 16, 2018 by Peter

[Autongnosis]

il y a 4 minutes, Peter a dit :

The funniest thing is that they did not even test, just read in the mod "90% reduction" and they think it's enough to give a feedback..

And I say one more time, I HOPE DE DOES NOT COMET THE MISTAKE OF RUIN THE MOD BECAUSE OF THESE GUYS.

In fact I'm worried that it will become ruined more than anything. I've tested it only on Atlas and Trinity so far because i didn't want to waste too much investment if it does get nuked. And those were the only two i could fit this in without massive forma work (atlas only took 1 and trinity none). 

It's not as broken as it sounds on paper but it's still incredibly overpowered for any moderately resilient frame, to the point where on anything breaking over 5k eHP it's basically a mod tax. It also allows for some ludicrous stuff like on my Trinity who sits on 1.8mln eHP. 

It's completely broken on the right frames and very very good on most others. 

 

I'm waiting a couple of days before starting the formas tbh, just to be safe.