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[Request] Can we get a Dev Workshop on the state of Melee 3.0?


Holonomic88
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With Melee 3.0 being worked on, we have been getting eclectic coverage via devstreams, but a well structured and comprehensive post would really be appreciated as the current post on Melee changes is quite outdated.  I realize this is a bit of work, but I think a Dev Workshop could really help avoid any Damage 2.5 like issues.  It would be a great place to explain what changes are planned and the reasons for these changes, while allowing community feedback while the system is still being developed.

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I was thinking it was a good idea until you mentioned "avoid damage 2.5 issues"... We don't need this community to sign off on their reworks before release or to lose their minds over something they haven't even tried. Let's let them work in peace.

Edited by Hypernaut1
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1 hour ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I was thinking it was a good idea until you mentioned "about damage 2.5 issues"...We don't need this community to sign off on their reworks before release or to lose their minds over something they haven't even tried. Let's let them work in peace.

The Dev Workshop posted only days before damage 2.5 was scheduled to release is what kept it from shipping.  I think the vast majority of players would agree that that is a good thing.  DE posted what they had, the community disliked it, so they scrapped it.  While there was a lot of negativity at the time, I think that this is what separates DE from most developers, their engagement with their players.  Posting a Dev Workshop early, while it is still in development would be helpful for DE and for the community.

I don't expect the community to 'sign off' on anything, so please don't put words in my mouth.

Edited by Holonomic88
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33 minutes ago, Holonomic88 said:

The Dev Workshop posted only days before damage 2.5 was scheduled to release is what kept it from shipping.  I think the vast majority of players would agree that that is a good thing.  DE posted what they had, the community disliked it, so they scrapped it.  While there was a lot of negativity at the time, I think that this is what separates DE from most developers, their engagement with their players.  Posting a Dev Workshop early, while it is still in development would be helpful for DE and for the community.

They think it was a good thing because they jumped to conclusions. Now we have no damage rework at all. I'm not convinced that the vocal minority on the forum really know what they want. Damage 2.5 could've been released and tweaked into something better than what we have now. I don't get why so many feel like it was such a big accomplishment to have it cancelled completely. 

What's worse is that people felt like the devs shouldve word for word taken someone else's ideas and implemented them. That's not how development works. It really seems like it was all about people trying to save the meta of their slash procs. 

I think Scott gave up on it, not because he didn't have better ideas but because the community seemed so ungrateful and disrespectful. 

I think the community shot itself in the foot with that one. It's also probably why they are probably choosing to remain silent until they release melee 3.0. they don't need the forums and tubers in an uproar over small changes

Edited by Hypernaut1
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Considering the size and scope of what Melee 3.0 is trying to do, changing how melee works and plays, this will cause a lot of controversy and strife regardless of a Dev Workshop. Players will be unhappy about change, and even fight for stagnancy about the current system because they are used to it. Perhaps it would be better to just let the changes come for this one. DE may be great at communication, but sometimes you need to push change to improve a system that has a lot of flaws in it, despite community angst against it. We will see a lot of grumpiness in the forums when the changes come.

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5 minutes ago, CaptainMinty said:

Considering the size and scope of what Melee 3.0 is trying to do, changing how melee works and plays, this will cause a lot of controversy and strife regardless of a Dev Workshop. Players will be unhappy about change, and even fight for stagnancy about the current system because they are used to it. Perhaps it would be better to just let the changes come for this one. DE may be great at communication, but sometimes you need to push change to improve a system that has a lot of flaws in it, despite community angst against it. We will see a lot of grumpiness in the forums when the changes come.

I totally agree, at some point DE will have to put their foot down on a number of items (I'm looking at you Maiming Strike).  That said, I would still love it if they posted a Dev Workshop so as to have a single source of information on the upcoming changes.

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6 minutes ago, Holonomic88 said:

I totally agree, at some point DE will have to put their foot down on a number of items (I'm looking at you Maiming Strike).  That said, I would still love it if they posted a Dev Workshop so as to have a single source of information on the upcoming changes.

There's several devstreams that have some visual of it, I don't have links to them, but there's plenty of info based on visual feedback right now.

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DE:  "Oh shoot, yeah, we've been far enough along to do a Workshop for a while now.  Good thing you posted this thread, Tenno, because somehow we were thinking we were supposed to have the Workshop  a month -after- release instead of a month -before-.   Haha, we get mixed up like that sometimes.  Welp."

DE: "PS  It had nothing to do with being deathly afraid to start the Great Riven Panic of Late 2018".

DE: "PPS  Buuut you should probably think about selling all your rivens for anything you can getWhile. You. Still. CAN."

DE: "PPPS By the way, doing all this melee rework stuff we discovered Wukong's Iron Jab is currently doing 3% more damage than it should.  So yeah, we're gonna fix the hell out of that, lol."

Edited by Tiltskillet
humor at Wukong's expense, +3.0%
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58 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

They think it was a good thing because they jumped to conclusions. Now we have no damage rework at all. I'm not convinced that the vocal minority on the forum really know what they want. Damage 2.5 could've been released and tweaked into something better than what we have now. I don't get why so many feel like it was such a big accomplishment to have it cancelled completely. 

my thought exactly back when i heard they canceling it. However the true reason they decided so, in my opinion, was that they got nothing in their pocket as an alternative for slash prod. Parkour 2.0 rework was well received for example, because we have an alternative for coptering after the rework, a better one at that. So ... trying to come up with one after the damage 2.5 would take much more development resource than they would want to commit, hence the cancelling.

Back to topic, i believe that we don't get a workshop .... simply because it's not ready. DE might not satisfy with the system yet internally and when we read a dev workshop, we would want them to at least satisfy with it first so that we can say which part of it we don't like.

In other word, you don't want the chef to unplug the oven and take it out to your dinner table to show you that the cake inside it is still not baked, you would want a cake to be serve and then tell the chef it's not baked (or compliment him if it does, optional anyway xD )

Edited by FireSegment
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What about rolling back all the melee changes done with Chimera and then yeah go take your time with 3.0 DE. For instance, back then getting rid of coptering in favour of Parkour was an amazing job so yeah you can potentially do the same with Melee 3.0...

However if what was introduced with Chimera is actually part of what is to come with 3.0 then it's plain obvious that it still needs lot of work. Accessibility and efficiency wise it's just way worse than what we had before.
Melee right now with Chimera completely lacks fluidity, animations no longer gain benefit from your Warframe's Sprint Speed (And several combos pretty much force you to standstill). And your keyboard's WASD input no longer give you control on how much ground distance you cover while performing any combo. 

And that's just clearly leaving a terrible impression on players right now. A single "We are aware with the current issues on the melee system" would be a great thing for many players to read. 

Edited by Aeron216
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9 minutes ago, Aeron216 said:

What about rolling back all the melee changes done with Chimera and then yeah go take your time with 3.0 DE. For instance, back then getting rid of coptering in favour of Parkour was an amazing job so yeah you can potentially do the same with Melee 3.0...

However if what was introduced with Chimera is actually part of what is to come with 3.0 then it's plain obvious that it still needs lot of work. Accessibility and efficiency wise it's just way worse than what we had before.
Melee right now with Chimera completely lacks fluidity, animations no longer gain benefit from your Warframe's Sprint Speed (And several combos pretty much force you to standstill). And your keyboard's WASD input no longer give you control on how much ground distance you cover while performing any combo. 

And that's just clearly leaving a terrible impression on players right now. A single "We are aware with the current issues on the melee system" would be a great thing for many players to read. 

I don't think we can properly judge any of the changes that leaked through properly because they're made to work with completely different mechanics. Of course they don't feel good, they're made to work on completely different combos and inputs than what we have.

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9 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

They think it was a good thing because they jumped to conclusions. Now we have no damage rework at all. I'm not convinced that the vocal minority on the forum really know what they want. Damage 2.5 could've been released and tweaked into something better than what we have now. I don't get why so many feel like it was such a big accomplishment to have it cancelled completely. 

What's worse is that people felt like the devs shouldve word for word taken someone else's ideas and implemented them. That's not how development works. It really seems like it was all about people trying to save the meta of their slash procs. 

I think Scott gave up on it, not because he didn't have better ideas but because the community seemed so ungrateful and disrespectful. 

I think the community shot itself in the foot with that one. It's also probably why they are probably choosing to remain silent until they release melee 3.0. they don't need the forums and tubers in an uproar over small changes

I agree completely.

Somehow people's hours in game make them game designers, so they always know what's best.

 

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7 minutes ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

I agree completely.

Somehow people's hours in game make them game designers, so they always know what's best

you dont need to be a "game designer" to know  whats best...........the 2.5 intend changes were terrible on paper , and anyone with a single brain cell could see that.

"If it looks like crap , smells like crap, and feels like crap , you don't have to actually eat it to know it's crap"

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35 minutes ago, minidelight said:

you dont need to be a "game designer" to know  whats best...........the 2.5 intend changes were terrible on paper , and anyone with a single brain cell could see that.

"If it looks like crap , smells like crap, and feels like crap , you don't have to actually eat it to know it's crap"

But players barely seen it in action, much less tried it...so your look, smell, feel test doesn't even hold water.That's the point. 

Worst case, some effects wouldn't have been as well liked as others, AFTER the MAJORITY of the player based trying it, and DE would've tweaked it. We couldve had a system where other procs were worth something.... But no, if the devs didn't follow a tubers advice they don't know how to design a game. There's no way we wouldve ended up with a worse system.... Oh AND Khora would've probably been cooler

Edited by Hypernaut1
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6 hours ago, LupisV0lk said:

By issues you mean upsetting status quo warriors, having said status quo warriors threaten economic terrorism in order to keep the status quo by any chance?

No, but I'm sure some will appear.

Edited by Holonomic88
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7 hours ago, minidelight said:

you dont need to be a "game designer" to know  whats best...........the 2.5 intend changes were terrible on paper , and anyone with a single brain cell could see that.

"If it looks like crap , smells like crap, and feels like crap , you don't have to actually eat it to know it's crap"

OTOH, as long as it's the same poo we're used to, we gobble it up and get angry when someone tries to take the plate away. 

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