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AFK-system: Register non-channeled abilities


Suminom
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So there is something I don't understand and it's bugging me. The current AFK-system will flag players even if they keep activating abilities. The system wants players to move every 2 min to make sure that they are not AFK and herein lies the problem. I know it seems to be a lesser problem in the game, but to me it is one of those things that subtly goes on my nerves without me noticing. Well... Until I did today.

While channeled abilities can be 'set and forget', non-channeled abilites will need to be pressed every once in a while, therefore requiring a player to be on the game. Now of course you could use a script that does this for you, but in the same manner you could set up a script to move your frame.

I was told to be very lazy if I am complaining to move 1m every two minutes. Now I don't want to discuss potential problems of lazy play in general (lazy play =/= afk or leeching) and whether it is reasonable or not. I just know that many players do play that way, usually in low level content where they just need 1 ability to clear the map. I assume that most of the time such players, me included, do some other stuff besides Warframe at the same time.

To me, it is more than just being lazy. I just realized how much of an annoyance it is and here is why. Moving a bit every 2 minutes is no big deal in itself, but this means that you need to keep track of time. You also need to know when a stage ends, always checking where you are (clearing speed can differ). If you didn't move by then, it's too late and you get no rewards. This results, for me at least, in switching attention and moving more often than needed just to be better safe than sorry.

If on the other hand casting non-channeled abilites did count, you would only need to switch attention to Warframe for a second, press 4 and go back to doing what you did. The worst is that in the former case, you are not any more productive than in the latter, all the while requiring more ressources from you.

I was also told that you can easily detect someone who moves with a script by checking the intervals it does so, but this applies to pressing 4 as well. A player would use it in irregular intervals, while a script does not. Got an RNG script of some sort to mask it? Works with moving as well.

So please, can someone enlighten me on why this system works the way it does? Else I would love to see it changed to register players who use abilities as active, especially since it seems like a very easy and quick change to implement.

Thanks for listening.

Edited by Suminom
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Yes, but the anti-AFK measures don't prevent lazy play in the first place. As I said, you are not being more productive by moving once in a while. That's why I am asking solely for the purpose of this mechanic as an anti-AFK measure.

Edited by Suminom
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And a 0% increase in damage or aid in your team. This 400% increase in button presses is annoying too and a negative interaction for the player as in being forced to do something with no gains. Not as bad as being needed to manage elapsed time/progress though.

As much as I understand the lazy play point, I don't believe that this enforces interactive play at all. If this would be their standard of interactive play, then it's a lost cause. The AFK-system, as suggested in the name, should stop players from going afk and I explained the problem I see with it's way to do so already.

Edited by Suminom
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To move once it two minutes you have to check your camera direction, press and hold a button for a few seconds and probably return back to the previous position.
To you an ability you just press a button.

Yes, the current system can't stop intended leeching (and it's whole different topic, hundreds of threads here on the forum haven't proveded better solution, actually). But it requires minimal interaction with the game and your suggestion is as good as 'remove AFK-system at all'.

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vor 1 Stunde schrieb Syasob:

It requires minimal interaction with the game and your suggestion is as good as 'remove AFK-system at all'.

So pressing 4 is not 'minimal interaction'? It is the same whether I deal 90% damage or do nothing? I don't see how it is the same as removing the AFK-system, mind to further explain?

 

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Drachnyn:

If moving around just that tiny little bit is too much to ask from you then i can't relate to your problem at all.

Also moving around is beneficial to you because you can collect more drops.

'I was told to be very lazy if I am complaining to move 1m every two minutes.'

Did you even read my post? I covered that part already. 

And whether it is beneficial to collect drops or not is for me to decide. I may not need drops of that map (urgently).

Also when you say 'move around' you mean traversing the map. What most players do is go forward and back.

Edited by Suminom
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vor 22 Minuten schrieb taiiat:

idk i can be in a lazy mood and be partially AFK flipping between checking the Forums or reading an Article or whatever else in addition to the game - multi-tasking while i'm in a Mission and never be marked as AFK just fine.

Obviously as someone who knows how the system works, I don't blame DE when I fail to show the system that I am not inactive. But this is only because I need to put in more effort. In some cases I did clear whole maps every 15 sec but failed to move in the last two minutes and while it is my own fault, I just want to know why it has to be like this. Why can't you guys give me some points as to why removing this specific mechanic hurts the system instead of saying 'yeah it's fine' or 'I got no problems with it'?

Edited by Suminom
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7 minutes ago, Suminom said:

So pressing 4 is not 'minimal interaction'?

You don't even have to look at the screen to do it. So you interact with 2 minute timer, not with the game. Even a simple eccentric device can press a key once in a while.

16 minutes ago, Suminom said:

It is the same whether I deal 90% damage or do nothing?

Yes, it is. If you just keep spamming a button standing still and everything dies you actually look like a bot.

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5 minutes ago, Suminom said:

Why can't you guys give me some points as to why removing this mechanic hurts the system instead of saying 'yeah it's fine' or 'I got no problems with it'?

why can't you give some points as to why it helps the system?
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

i think "yeah it's fine" is a useful note here of that - it works, it's not really intrusive or absent. more or less aggressive doesn't really seem much better to me.

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vor 2 Stunden schrieb Syasob:

You don't even have to look at the screen to do it. So you interact with 2 minute timer, not with the game. Even a simple eccentric device can press a key once in a while.

I really don't know if you are trolling or if I don't get it. First off, you don't need the camera to move. All you need to do is to hold a movement key for a short time two times to move and be back at your place. Secondly, why whould you need to look at the screen in the first place? It's the same question about increasing interaction amount with keys pressed. It will not make you contribute any more to the game than you already do, just a nuisance for the player.

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Syasob:

Yes, it is. If you just keep spamming a button standing still and everything dies you actually look like a bot.

Sorry, but this is how the game is designed. You are there to kill mobs, and if you weren't allowed to kill the whole map like Equinox, Volt etc. can do, then they should not exist in the first place. Or you should be restricted while playing low level mission. That's a whole new issue.

 

vor 2 Stunden schrieb taiiat:

why can't you give some points as to why it helps the system?

Because I am not claiming that it helps the system, but the players. Yes, possibly lazy players, but then again I tried to explain many times now that in it's current state, it will not make players contribute more to the team, neither increase 'interaction' with the game. I don't believe this is the purpose of an AFK-system. I also don't see how it would hurt the system. Of course I would not recommend it if there was a downside, but I just can't see it (yet), hence my question. According to my in-game profile I played 1043 hours Warframe in total now. Am i lazy? Yes, but I do put in effort if a mission requires to do so and I did put much effort in the game as a whole. Then again, lazy play is a different matter.

Edited by Suminom
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3 hours ago, Drachnyn said:

You are extending the amount of buttons you press from 1 to 5 with moving around. That is a 400% increase in how much you interact with the game.

Press 4, press w, press 4 doesnt make you more productive or active ingame.

My favorite thing to do is to go to hydron hop on one of the rectangular things and murder stuff without moving an inch. I just spin around and shoot like some madman but i guess thats too afk gameplay because i have to press W to not get registered by the system.

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DE wants to promote active play rather than sitting in one spot all match 

Nuking Io with Banshee.

Covering an area using Ivara with a silenced Ogris on Hydron.

Covering an area with Titania in Razorwing on MOT.

Burst firing down a hall with Nekros on a Survival mission.

All while watching music videos or playing Skyrim on another device.

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Did you read the posts or just skim through them?


I understand that point, but I'm getting tired of hearing the same thing all the time. Forcing you to move a minimal amount is not promoting active play. It is furthermore not the purpose of an AFK-system to promote active play, but to prevent players from going AFK and doing nothing. How often do I need to make clear that being lazy and playing passively is not the topic of this thread, but another topic for itself. If this mechanic of having to move would fix this issue, then it shouldn't prove to be any problem right now in regards to preventing lazy play, yet it is. As a matter of fact, people play passively such as in examples mentioned here despite the AFK-system wanting you to move. It is also a whole new topic about how content and gameplay should be designed to prevent cheesing through, although you should keep in mind that the community always keeps looking for ways to make their gameplay more efficient one way or another.

All I would like to know is how removing the need to move every 2 minutes would make the system worse. And to make it clear, if there is an advantage of having this mechanic, there also must be a disadvantage of not having it. Is it so hard to explain it to me or am I just that dumb?

PS: Regarding the promotion of active play, I personally think it should happen by positive reinforcement of gameplay experience, not an obstacle which players just try to bypass. And please don't ignore the fact that such a way of playing is mostly present in easy content where you are overgeared and simply can kill everything on the spot. Where is the fun to play actively if you are simply too powerful for the content? Restrict yourself by playing with weak gear and increase you time spent in a mission which you completed hundreds of times already? I don't see a problem with lazy play like that. There are so many frames for a reason and if you like to play a massive AoE destroyer, then so be it. But all this is beside the point.

Edited by Suminom
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I simply assume it has been setup the way it has because it most common for a player to have two hands active while playing and WASD keys are the most common ones in use, while lots of abilities and actions that are one-key based can be just tied to mouse buttons.

There is basically zero chance that any player _actually_ playing the game will not move around the environment, even if just to micro-reposition themselves to take clear shots at something, or picking up drops, etc etc, so movement probably seemed like a decent compromise that wont give too many false positives.

If you are playing by staying in one spot and doing AOE wipes, you still might register as AFK simply because DE, by choosing to put in SOME basic AFK detection system, had to decide on some criteria, and that criteria currently involves "moving".

 

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vor 4 Minuten schrieb DSpite:

I simply assume it has been setup the way it has because it most common for a player to have two hands active while playing and WASD keys are the most common ones in use, while lots of abilities and actions that are one-key based can be just tied to mouse buttons.

There is basically zero chance that any player _actually_ playing the game will not move around the environment, even if just to micro-reposition themselves to take clear shots at something, or picking up drops, etc etc, so movement probably seemed like a decent compromise that wont give too many false positives.

If you are playing by staying in one spot and doing AOE wipes, you still might register as AFK simply because DE, by choosing to put in SOME basic AFK detection system, had to decide on some criteria, and that criteria currently involves "moving".

 

This is a reasonable explanation on why they chose to implement it like that back then, but I posted this thread in the feedback category for a reason. We now know that many players do play pretty stationary, particularly in easy missions. It is very common, at least in my missions so far and only when the mission type allows to stay at one spot of course. If there is no benefit to leaving it as it is, then why not make a change? My suggestion is not a solution to this whole AFK/leeching/lazy play mess, but an easy and quick one to implement which would reduce the annoyance of farming specific missions to some degree.

At the beginning of my post, I mentioned that this problem is something I wasn't aware of for a long time and which was bugging me in a subtle way. In missions, I often run around even if I don't have to, because in the back of my mind I know that I have to move to get a reward. If I had the choice not to do it and the mission would not require me to do otherwise, then why not do everything stationary if I feel like it? It remains a restriction after all.

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14 minutes ago, Suminom said:

To you, since that topic came up quite often now in this thread.

In that case I'd suggest Quoting in future otherwise you are essentially replying to the OP (you in this case) rather than the intended user.

40 minutes ago, Suminom said:

Did you read the posts or just skim through them?

I read the entire thing.

41 minutes ago, Suminom said:

I understand that point, but I'm getting tired of hearing the same thing all the time. Forcing you to move a minimal amount is not promoting active play. It is furthermore not the purpose of an AFK-system to promote active play, but to prevent players from going AFK and doing nothing. How often do I need to make clear that being lazy and playing passively is not the topic of this thread, but another topic for itself. If this mechanic of having to move would fix this issue, then it shouldn't prove to be any problem right now in regards to preventing lazy play, yet it is. As a matter of fact, people play passively such as in examples mentioned here despite the AFK-system wanting you to move. It is also a whole new topic about how content and gameplay should be designed to prevent cheesing through, although you should keep in mind that the community always keeps looking for ways to make their gameplay more efficient one way or another.

You're going to keep hearing it since (as much as you don't like it) active play is apparently what DE are aiming for. They aren't forcing you to move minimal amounts (although it's understandable that you may hold down a position for a minute) they actually intend you to move around with your attention on the game, taking a step every so often is a way in which players are cheating the system. Not all "AFK systems" are about just leaving a game to run itself but can include minimal effort or lazy play such as sitting in a spot spamming the same button.

1 hour ago, Suminom said:

All I would like to know is how removing the need to move every 2 minutes would make the system worse. And to make it clear, if there is an advantage of having this mechanic, there also must be a disadvantage of not having it. Is it so hard to explain it to me or am I just that dumb?

Assuming the system isn't being cheated by a player pressing a few buttons while, for example looking at another screen. The advantage would be that players are encouraged to actually focus on the game and be aware of what's going on; moving with the team, reviving and covering. The disadvantage would be that in some situations, lets say you need to guard an entrance while your team mates are doing an objective you may forget to move activating the system.

1 hour ago, Suminom said:

PS: Regarding the promotion of active play, I personally think it should happen by positive reinforcement of gameplay experience, not an obstacle which players just try to bypass. 

 A friend and I did play around with the idea of momentum a few years ago. Basically the more you move and actions you perform the greater you are rewarded with buffs and bonuses but slow play may bring penalties. 

1 hour ago, Suminom said:

And please don't ignore the fact that such a way of playing is mostly present in easy content where you are overgeared and simply can kill everything on the spot. Where is the fun to play actively if you are simply too powerful for the content? Restrict yourself by playing with weak gear and increase you time spent in a mission which you completed hundreds of times already? I don't see a problem with lazy play like that. There are so many frames for a reason and if you like to play a massive AoE destroyer, then so be it. But all this is beside the point.

Restricting yourself would just be about making the game more of a challenge for yourself. Active play is about being focused on the game and moving. 

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vor 59 Minuten schrieb (PS4)deathwolfclaw666:

In that case I'd suggest Quoting in future otherwise you are essentially replying to the OP (you in this case) rather than the intended user.

Suggestion taken. I just assumed you would see that it's the OP (me), I am new to the forum.

vor 59 Minuten schrieb (PS4)deathwolfclaw666:

You're going to keep hearing it since (as much as you don't like it) active play is apparently what DE are aiming for. They aren't forcing you to move minimal amounts (although it's understandable that you may hold down a position for a minute) they actually intend you to move around with your attention on the game, taking a step every so often is a way in which players are cheating the system. Not all "AFK systems" are about just leaving a game to run itself but can include minimal effort or lazy play such as sitting in a spot spamming the same button.

As good as their intention may be (although this is also open to discussion), right now it is not hard to see how players behave with this system in place. If their intention was to keep players moving by implementing this detection mechanism in the AFK-system, it would have been much more functional to add a distance margin which you need to exceed in order to be unflagged. Combined with the fact that they decided to allow staying still for 2 minutes, it leads me to think that they don't want you to move as much as you think they do. Interacting with the game is not limited to moving, but activating abilities or shooting enemies as well. That's my understanding of interaction.Their system does not do anything that requires you to keep your attention on the game. Another point I have already spoken about.

vor 59 Minuten schrieb (PS4)deathwolfclaw666:

Assuming the system isn't being cheated by a player pressing a few buttons while, for example looking at another screen. The advantage would be that players are encouraged to actually focus on the game and be aware of what's going on; moving with the team, reviving and covering. The disadvantage would be that in some situations, lets say you need to guard an entrance while your team mates are doing an objective you may forget to move activating the system.

I wouldn't call it cheating if you are playing according to their system. It's not a brand new system and if they would perceive this as cheating, they would have fixed it long ago. Again intentions aside, the current system still allows you to look at other screens and that's what I am saying. You can assume what you want, but in reality it is not the case. Whatever their intentions were, their system fails to encourage you to play more actively. I am not discussing against the system here, nor against their intentions of encouraging active play, but only a mechanic for their AFK detection. I don't need to know what it's intended purpose once was, but rather what it's purpose is right now. The console activation as an example is not really fitting here, because I am not trying to approve of AFKing. You would be casting abilities and be on the game on regular intervals because you know you will have to move eventually. Which is not necessarily the case on endless missions.

 

vor 59 Minuten schrieb (PS4)deathwolfclaw666:

A friend and I did play around with the idea of momentum a few years ago. Basically the more you move and actions you perform the greater you are rewarded with buffs and bonuses but slow play may bring penalties.

Apart from this threads topic (since it is a suggestion for active play encouragement), I personally can't see this being a good implementation, as playing in your own style is what I find most interesting in Warframe. How much you move does not directly translate in your performance in the game. Say for example you play Trinity and you are defending an objective in a high level mission. You lack damage and just need to heal everyone. Where is the incentive to run and jump around like crazy? It doesn't fit with all playstyles and Warframe diversity we have and it certainly does not give the rest of your team a disadvantage by not moving around, as long as you do your job.

vor 59 Minuten schrieb (PS4)deathwolfclaw666:

Restricting yourself would just be about making the game more of a challenge for yourself. Active play is about being focused on the game and moving.

The thing is, a challenge is only a challenge if you want it to be. When I have to farm something in large quantities, I see it as another routine mission and I certainly don't want to increase my farming time intentionally (don't tell me I need to move to collect drops, because affinity/focus/relics exist too). And where is the point to make a challenge out of a level 20 mission, when you can just hop into a sortie or arbritration alert. Different mission come with different purposes and in many cases, especially defense, it is simply faster to nuke enemies to complete rounds. Now we are back to the standing still problem.

Edited by Suminom
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3 minutes ago, Suminom said:

As good as their intention may be (although this is also open to discussion), right now it is not hard to see how players behave with this system in place. If their intention was to keep players moving by implementing this detection mechanism in the AFK-system, it would have been much more functional to add a distance margin which you need to exceed in order to be unflagged. Combined with the fact that they decided to allow staying still for 2 minutes, it leads me to think that they don't want you to move as much as you think they do. Interacting with the game is not limited to moving, but activating abilities or shooting enemies as well. That's my understanding of interaction.Their system does not do anything that requires you to keep your attention on the game. Another point I have already spoken about.

I wouldn't call it cheating if you are playing according to their system. It's not a brand new system and if they would perceive this as cheating, they would have fixed it long ago. Again intentions aside, the current system still allows you to look at other screens and that's what I am saying. You can assume what you want, but in reality it is not the case. Whatever theIr intentions were, their system fails to encourage you to play more actively. I am not discussing against the system here, nor against their intentions of encouraging active play, but only a mechanic for their AFK detection. I don't need to know what it's intended purpose once was, but rather what it's purpose is right now.

A distance factor is something I've thought about but the question becomes is that possible with their engine without creating additional problems and also is that the route DE would want to take or would they rather keep the system and try to balance the game with more movement in mind. 

14 minutes ago, Suminom said:

Apart from this threads topic (since it is a suggestion for active play encouragement), I personally can't see this being a good implementation, as playing in your own style is what I find most interesting in Warframe. How much you move does not directly translate in your performance in the game. Say for example you play Trinity and you are defending an objective in a high level mission. You lack damage and just need to heal everyone. Where is the incentive to run and jump around like crazy? It doesn't fit with all playstyles and Warframe diversity we have and it certainly does not give the rest of your team a disadvantage as long as you do your job, even if you stand still.

I never said it did, I simply gave an example of a mechanic that could promote what DE want's you to do. The mechanic is also in itself flawed and would've required a rebalance of some types of frames and abilities such as Trinity.

 

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vor 1 Minute schrieb (PS4)deathwolfclaw666:

I never said it did, I simply gave an example of a mechanic that could promote what DE want's you to do. The mechanic is also in itself flawed and would've required a rebalance of some types of frames and abilities such as Trinity.

Well those were just my first thoughts, but suggestions are always a good start I guess.

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