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Staticor: Splitting primary and charged fire.


[DE]Grzegorz
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For the sake of consistency and ease of use, Staticor should be turned into an automatic weapon on primary fire (not unlike other throwable weapons) and the charged throw should instead be bound to secondary fire (which serves no function on Staticor currently).

This would make the behaviour of the weapon more consistent as well make it easier to use by people who cannot rapidly fire the weapon without having to resort to macros.

On a second thought, the same could be applied to Ballistica series of weapons as well.

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This seems reasonable. It would also allow for more fluid transition between ranges of combat, or single target sustained damage and group target burst. Less risk of discharging a high-charge shot by running into a goon. Would also require very little additional work, if handled as "Normal Fire is automatic barrage and Alternate Fire is charged shot," as appears to be the idea in the original post, for people who actually read it all the way through; the responses so far imply that people are not doing that, since they seem to think that charge attacks would be removed.

Also, I would appreciate this on the Ballistica series, as also mentioned.

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As one who love the Staticor, rather not. Without gimping your build with max rof, lethal torrent alone brings it up to an easily sustainable fire rate. If you need something more there are many options on pc. This isnt even considering how alt fire is generally a hot topic issue with consoles and that a mode switch alt fire would make the weapon extremely clunky. Nothing wrong with the weapon as is, no changes needed.

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No thank you, this is basically just another hate thread against semi autos, solely because you need to click to make it effective. It’s fine as is, no change is needed. Might as well remove semi autos all together at this point, even if this does go through, the weapon will be balanced around being auto, so expect nerfs 

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9 minutes ago, GinKenshin said:

No thank you, this is basically just another hate thread against semi autos, solely because you need to click to make it effective. It’s fine as is, no change is needed. Might as well remove semi autos all together at this point, even if this does go through, the weapon will be balanced around being auto, so expect nerfs 

Hate thread? Where do you see hate? You can still continue to use the weapon however you want. Suggesting an alternative way to use a weapon isn't hateful.

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this would dramatically change the way the Weapon works - and to quite an unnecessary degree.
your optimal DPS isn't even spamming Uncharged Shots anyways(like in most games, the optimal is somewhere in the middle, splitting between time and Damage), you don't have a reason to be trying to spam(moreso shooting a few times a second tops). so i think this problem is self prevented.

and then on a personal note for me, Variable Charge is such a beautiful thing.

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3 hours ago, taiiat said:

this would dramatically change the way the Weapon works - and to quite an unnecessary degree.
your optimal DPS isn't even spamming Uncharged Shots anyways(like in most games, the optimal is somewhere in the middle, splitting between time and Damage), you don't have a reason to be trying to spam(moreso shooting a few times a second tops). so i think this problem is self prevented.

and then on a personal note for me, Variable Charge is such a beautiful thing.

Spamming in fact gives the optimal true DPS if you factor in the armor stripping from the more frequent corrosive procs against Grineer or magnetic procs against high level Corpus. Charging your shots doesn't give you extra damage per ammo used, you will spend a minimum of 4 ammo for 4x the damage of a non-charged shots. Holding the charge further than the minimum time required spends extra ammo for no added benefit. If you only charge halfway with 2 ammo, you get 2x the non-charged ammo. If you spend 3 ammo, you get 3x the noncharged ammo. Testing that is really easy in the simulacrum, which you clearly didn't bother to do. 

d0ca23c37e0cf457f247e4c4c60a697a.png

You also don't get any added extra area radius; both type of shots now after the buff have a 8 meter radius, as stated here:

On 2018-10-12 at 4:56 PM, [DE]Megan said:

Increased Staticor's charged shot AoE size from 2m to 8m and is no longer affected by charge level.

 

So the radius is the same and the damage per spent ammo is the same. You don't even gain any extra crit or status chance for charging the shot. The only difference is the less frequent status procs on charged shots, because of the lower rate of fire, and the slower speed of the charged projectile. The only real use for the charged shots is to pre-charge it to initiate combat, and then continue to spam the smaller shots for the maximum DPS.

You would still be able to use the variable charge even if the keybind was changed. My only advice for you is to stop talking S#&$e, especially if you have no idea how the weapon even functions.

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5 hours ago, DarcnyssWolfe said:

As one who love the Staticor, rather not. Without gimping your build with max rof, lethal torrent alone brings it up to an easily sustainable fire rate. If you need something more there are many options on pc.

...I don't get the point of the "gimping with max rof" argument. I just don't understand why you brought it up.

5 hours ago, DarcnyssWolfe said:

This isnt even considering how alt fire is generally a hot topic issue with consoles and that a mode switch alt fire would make the weapon extremely clunky. Nothing wrong with the weapon as is, no changes needed.

I'm not particularly familiar with console keybind layout.

5 hours ago, GinKenshin said:

No thank you, this is basically just another hate thread against semi autos, solely because you need to click to make it effective.

There's also the whole deal of their heavy dependency on framerate and unnecessary strain/outright RSI due to poor design decisions that couple big mags, high-ish rates of fire, and a borderline requirement of magdumping all at once.

I would never suggest anything like that for Rubico or Latron, but in case of Staticor and Ballistica, the implementation is questionable, both due to two firemodes under a single key and the spammy nature of Staticor (Ballistica would obviously remain semi/burst on primary/secondary fire).

5 hours ago, GinKenshin said:

It’s fine as is, no change is needed. Might as well remove semi autos all together at this point, even if this does go through, the weapon will be balanced around being auto, so expect nerfs 

Are you familiar with the concept of slippery-slope?

If weapons were balanced for semis (which are inherently slightly harder to use) they'd have anything going for them, which is exactly why we see quite literally nobody using any of the few semi-autos instead of any full-auto that behaves similarly - with the notable exception of snipers and shotguns that most of the time get the job done within a single shot anyway.

Not to mention all the other ways to go around the issue - e.g split firemodes where fully-automatic fire could result in ROF penalty while semi-auto rhythm doesn't if you are so concerned about "balance", but that would only result in even heavier macro abuse.

4 hours ago, taiiat said:

your optimal DPS isn't even spamming Uncharged Shots anyways(like in most games, the optimal is somewhere in the middle, splitting between time and Damage), you don't have a reason to be trying to spam(moreso shooting a few times a second tops). so i think this problem is self prevented.

This isn't Battlefield and you don't really have to care that much about recoil or spread in Warframe, magdumping at full rate is quite often the optimal way to use a gun.

4 hours ago, taiiat said:

and then on a personal note for me, Variable Charge is such a beautiful thing.

It'd still be there but instead bound to Mouse 3 by default.

Edited by JuicyButthurt
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3 hours ago, JuicyButthurt said:

 

...I don't get the point of the "gimping with max rof" argument. I just don't understand why you brought it up.

I'm not particularly familiar with console keybind layout.

.-snip-

First, refering to moding for max rate of fire, gimping your build with 2 inferior mods (gs and anemic). Those slots are better used for damage, be it crit or elem. And outside that level of fire rate, lethal alone puts it in a decent place. 

Second, iirc alt fire is a stick click by default, and if they can remap, choices are very limited. Making it a mode swap rather than direct fire/charge would just make it clunky for both console and pc. The current system is not nearly as seamless a swap compared to the other two options, direct/held alt fire or the current charge fire.

 

Edited by DarcnyssWolfe
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1 hour ago, DarcnyssWolfe said:

First, refering to moding for max rate of fire, gimping your build with 2 inferior mods (gs and anemic). Those slots are better used for damage, be it crit or elem. And outside that level of fire rate, lethal alone puts it in a decent place. 

 

...so why does that follow? I just don't get how it is relevant to the discussion.

1 hour ago, DarcnyssWolfe said:

Second, iirc alt fire is a stick click by default, and if they can remap, choices are very limited. Making it a mode swap rather than direct fire/charge would just make it clunky for both console and pc. The current system is not nearly as seamless a swap compared to the other two options, direct/held alt fire or the current charge fire.

It doesn't necessarily have to be mode swap, it can just be altfire. The current iteration has its own share of issues, not to mention its questionable existence.

Edited by JuicyButthurt
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4 hours ago, JuicyButthurt said:

...so why does that follow? I just don't get how it is relevant to the discussion.

It doesn't necessarily have to be mode swap, it can just be altfire. The current iteration has its own share of issues, not to mention its questionable existence.

Saying this isnt a high rof weapon that really warrents full auto, far from some semi's that hit the hard capped 10 rof with lethal, but we'll just ignore this for the sake of "I hate having to click for every shot" that this post seems to focus on.

As for not mode swap, ever had to click and hold a thumb stick while doing multiple other inputs on a controller, lot of fun there.

However you do have a point, with the changes to its aoe, the charge shot itself is of questionable value. Prior the longer charge meant larger aoe, now...? Can't really buff the charge given its already a seriously top tier weapon.

Edited by DarcnyssWolfe
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9 hours ago, JuicyButthurt said:

This isn't Battlefield and you don't really have to care that much about recoil or spread in Warframe, magdumping at full rate is quite often the optimal way to use a gun.

i didn't say anything about Accuracy. firing uncharged Shots isn't as effective as partial Charges. i'll point it out again that there isn't a reason for you to be firing uncharged Shots with Staticor as it is, so there isn't a necessity to be firing 6 Shots/sec.
one could desire to fire uncharged Shots anyways, but since the most effective Damage Output is not that, i'm trying to remind you that you're being encouraged to use the Weapon in a different way currently. and so that may influence the strength of your desire for something to be different.

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11 hours ago, taiiat said:

i didn't say anything about Accuracy. firing uncharged Shots isn't as effective as partial Charges. i'll point it out again that there isn't a reason for you to be firing uncharged Shots with Staticor as it is, so there isn't a necessity to be firing 6 Shots/sec.
one could desire to fire uncharged Shots anyways, but since the most effective Damage Output is not that, i'm trying to remind you that you're being encouraged to use the Weapon in a different way currently. and so that may influence the strength of your desire for something to be different.

Do elaborate how partially charged shots are in any way beneficial currently.

Unmodded, it takes 3 seconds to charge it to damage worth of 5 shots, in the same time you could spam-fire it ~12 times. It also flies noticeably slower. How is charging the weapon in any way advantageous?

Edited by JuicyButthurt
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9 hours ago, taiiat said:

i didn't say anything about Accuracy. firing uncharged Shots isn't as effective as partial Charges. i'll point it out again that there isn't a reason for you to be firing uncharged Shots with Staticor as it is, so there isn't a necessity to be firing 6 Shots/sec.
one could desire to fire uncharged Shots anyways, but since the most effective Damage Output is not that, i'm trying to remind you that you're being encouraged to use the Weapon in a different way currently. and so that may influence the strength of your desire for something to be different.

Few post above I already proved that shots that are charged by any amount at all are worse in every single case except when initializing combat.

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On 2018-10-17 at 8:42 AM, Wyrmius_Prime said:

 

You also don't get any added extra area radius; both type of shots now after the buff have a 8 meter radius, as stated here:

 

 

 

Before the change, did a shot have to be fully charged to get the increased radius? 

If so, I'd really think it's a bug that uncharged shots get the same radius. Not only does Megan say "charged shot", but if you assume it's just a mistake in wording, the cost benefit of charging doesn't make a lot of sense.  You get more burst damage, but at the cost of dps, ammo, range, and velocity.

If you never had to fully charge, then I don't know what they were thinking.  Although I'm enjoying the hell out of it.

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2 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

 

Before the change, did a shot have to be fully charged to get the increased radius? 

If so, I'd really think it's a bug that uncharged shots get the same radius. Not only does Megan say "charged shot", but if you assume it's just a mistake in wording, the cost benefit of charging doesn't make a lot of sense.  You get more burst damage, but at the cost of dps, ammo, range, and velocity.

If you never had to fully charge, then I don't know what they were thinking.  Although I'm enjoying the hell out of it.

It says it right over in the patch notes, it was an intended change. Charge level does no longer affect the radius.

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On 2018-10-17 at 8:42 AM, Wyrmius_Prime said:
  On 2018-10-12 at 6:56 AM, [DE]Megan said:

Increased Staticor's charged shot AoE size from 2m to 8m and is no longer affected by charge level.

 

 

29 minutes ago, Wyrmius_Prime said:

It says it right over in the patch notes, it was an intended change. Charge level does no longer affect the radius.

Why would it say "charged shot" rather than just "shot"?

It makes a little more sense if before it had to -fully- charged, and they only meant to add the 8m radius to partially charged shots as well.  So do you know if -partially- charged shots got the increased radius before this or not?

If they really intended there to be almost no reason to charge, well lol.

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On 2018-10-17 at 6:46 AM, GinKenshin said:

No thank you, this is basically just another hate thread against semi autos, solely because you need to click to make it effective. It’s fine as is, no change is needed. Might as well remove semi autos all together at this point, even if this does go through, the weapon will be balanced around being auto, so expect nerfs 

I think the problem in Staticor's case is that it fires when you release after the click, which to most people (including myself) feels bad. I don't have the fastest trigger finger, and I would much rather not be stressing out over tapping (click AND release) as fast as possible. It is the same problem duplex weapons have, except that you fire only one round per click and release as opposed to duplex firing two.

And kind of to that point, if DE did add an alt-fire to Staticor I would rather it be a semi-auto but without the charge functionality. That way you are not punished for a slow release and don't have that awkward fire delay.

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15 hours ago, Wyrmius_Prime said:

Few post above I already proved that shots that are charged by any amount at all are worse in every single case except when initializing combat.

 

On 2018-10-17 at 11:42 AM, Wyrmius_Prime said:

Spamming in fact gives the optimal true DPS if you factor in the armor stripping from the more frequent corrosive procs against Grineer or magnetic procs against high level Corpus. Charging your shots doesn't give you extra damage per ammo used, you will spend a minimum of 4 ammo for 4x the damage of a non-charged shots. Holding the charge further than the minimum time required spends extra ammo for no added benefit. If you only charge halfway with 2 ammo, you get 2x the non-charged ammo. If you spend 3 ammo, you get 3x the noncharged ammo. Testing that is really easy in the simulacrum, which you clearly didn't bother to do. 

you're comparing Damage for Ammo, but the Ammunition doesn't matter. all that matters is how fast things get dead.
obviously applying Stacking Status is faster if you are firing Uncharged Shots - though needing to Strip Armor with your Weapon at all is a slow Killing scenario in the first place.

 

9 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

Before the change, did a shot have to be fully charged to get the increased radius? 

a part of the Variable Charge - the Radius was also Variable.

Edited by taiiat
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