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Where is DE's mind when it comes to us and their content?


Lior55
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I'm trying to understand why so much of what DE comes out with feels so half done and rushed. Sanctuary Onslaught, Revenant, Khora, Arbitrations, Lunaro, Plains, Archwing, etc. Does some of the staff believe fervently in our loyalty and complacency. We are a very forgiving and patient community, but is that to our detriment? Does DE have warframe favoritism? Some warframes and their rewords come out well done while others are a bloody uncooked mess. Is DE secure that they can do anything and we'll mostly eat it up? Is that why it feels like they only focus on new players for the most part rather than endgame? DE can come out with anything and it'll attract new players. New players don't know what a lacking/trash warframe is, so they won't complain about nerfs, buffs, or reworks that may be needed. They don't know if a new game mode is actually meaningful and good in juxtaposition to other content or by itself. I feel like we as endgame players are being ignored and have been for a long time because not enough time and effort is being put into the content that we're suppose to be playing. None of these game modes feel refined. It's not about it feeling perfect. It's about the content that they come out with feeling well thought out and finished. How long did it take for them to make the Sortie rewards more meaningful? How long did it take for us to get infinite Archwing in the plains? They have a bit of a "set it and forget it" mentality towards their content after a few hotfixes and I think it's hurting the game and us as a community.

 

I'm not calling them lazy by any means. I just think that they're squandering their potential with all the content we already have by ignoring it for more stuff. I wanted to hear opinions on what's been happening with DE over the past year and if there are concerns about where the developers head space is at. I am excited for Fortuna and Railjack. I want other parts of Warframe to be in a greater place as well though.

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Warframe is one of the most actively developed game i know, content wise. So much development, adding so many new things in segments and the game becomes 'segmented'. Many times it feels like there is no overall 'wholeness' to warframe.

And before they fix it, I guess they move on to the next thing, because the players are hungry.

 

Edited by Pixues
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I agree. The new alerts are pretty much endless sorties with crappier rewards. The boon gimmick shows promise but it's up in the air if you'll have the weapon and frame for it. PoE, Onslaught, and countless other features have started out this way. I know DE is working hard and have their hearts in the right place, but it's getting ridiculous. Hopefully all that potential is going towards Fortuna.

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8 minutes ago, Pixues said:

Warframe is one of the most actively developed game i know, content wise. So much development, adding so many new things in segments and the game becomes 'segmented'. Many times it feels like there is no overall 'wholeness' to warframe.

And before they fix it, I guess they move on to the next thing, because the players are hungry.

 

I agree. The community is very demanding and it's impossible to keep everybody happy. I know they are working incredibly hard and I think most of the elite players are way too hard on them. 

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I think many players overestimate what an indie team of 200ish people can accomplish. AAA developers have thousands of people working on a game as well as contractors from countries with lower salaries to outsource the most tedious parts of the process. 

With a given revenue stream you can pay four times as many Indians or Chinese workers than Canadians or twice as many Polish (like CD Projekt). 

Knowing that, I think the notion of DE half-cooking things because we'll eat anything is just plain wrong. They do it because they're simply spread too thin and a raw steak is better than no steak at all. They've made some miscalculations and management errors lately and they've bitten more than they can chew. Unfortunately now they just can't backtrack and they have to release Fortuna before undergoing any majority strategy changes. 

In short, managing a small business is very difficult and you have very little room for errors. I am really sure nobody is more concerned than they are about all this situation. 

You're right about all the content you mention, it's rushed and half done, like mainly everything else in the game. I'm afraid this is the level of attention to detail an indie studio with a free to play game with first world workers can do. It's a trade-off, creative freedom VS resources. If this was a product by a major company it would be finished, solid as a rock and it would have a boring, generic and safe aesthetic, a safe story and hand-holding dumbed down mechanics...

Personally I like Warframe because of the bold, euro-sci-fi, overcomplicated, mess that it is. It's like a great B movie. 

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45 minutes ago, ModernGreg said:

are way too hard on them. 

Not really. They just....cant or dont want to see certain problems with the game.

Instead of focusing on core gameplay and ways to improve it, they add lots of...."extras" that are mostly not great.   

Nobody would be against a huge update dedicated exclusively to enemies, their AI, pathing and combat mechanics,  various gore for various factions and a load of new enemy types. Because that is also content and it adds alot to the game that is based entirely on fighting with enemies. 

 

You say "people want new content".....that is bs.   People want "stuff to do".   It doesn't have to be new, but it must be FUN.  As long as gameplay is fun and addictive, people will come back for more.  

Spamming half baked new content and leaving it be will never actually "fill" the game. It will remain an empty shell.  

 

I think they really need to focus on "reutilising" already existing content.  Really hope AW will be properly reused in Railjack.   

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I agree.

I'm going to put this out there stupid as it may sound...  hypothetically speaking, if "Warframes" were the focus of ..Warframe, then being enjoyed and working as intended would be a priority would it not?  Also hypothetically speaking if Warframes weren't a priority for the company that named the game named after them and what said game literally revolves around, should it be concerning if/when something puts them on the back burner and they become ignored to some degree or another?

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24 minutes ago, Conflux59 said:

I agree.

I'm going to put this out there stupid as it may sound...  hypothetically speaking, if "Warframes" were the focus of ..Warframe, then being enjoyed and working as intended would be a priority would it not?  Also hypothetically speaking if Warframes weren't a priority for the company that named the game named after them and what said game literally revolves around, should it be concerning if/when something puts them on the back burner and they become ignored to some degree or another?

I cannot even begin with this comment. I was literally saying this today. It's called WARFRAME. Why are they putting so many warframes on the back burner when they are the central part of all of our experiences no matter what content we're playing!? To me, they matter more than anything else. Although I'm not saying that they should stop everyone to work on warframes, they should dedicate some people to working warframes that need it at all times. (like Pablo >.>)

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As someone else said, it's not that they don't care, i think it purely resource and time management. I'm sure they'd love to be able to spend the time to make everything perfect, but they've said before, they need to put out new content to survive. I don't think they can afford to spend the time needed to fix without getting the same kind of backlash and cries of content drought we've been getting, especially since most players don't seem to consider reworks as "content".

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1 hour ago, Kainosh said:

Nobody would be against a huge update dedicated exclusively to enemies, their AI, pathing and combat mechanics,  various gore for various factions and a load of new enemy types. Because that is also content and it adds alot to the game that is based entirely on fighting with enemies. 

Please? 😞 I would like that. I want Warframe to feel more robust.

Edited by Lior55
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2 hours ago, ModernGreg said:

I agree. The community is very demanding and it's impossible to keep everybody happy. I know they are working incredibly hard and I think most of the elite players are way too hard on them. 

Like he said, its impossible to keep everyone happy, to fix things faster or nail it the first time. Keep in mind they are always trying. Always releasing new free stuff with good quality.
No other free game have made this far in term of content and quality while keeping it not p2w. 

Look around the others free games in the market, look for the paid triple AAA titles as well, unfinished buggy mess with repetitive formulas.

I understand the end game is kind of painful and repetitive, i felt the same way after doing Sorties everyday until i gave up and stop playing for some time.
After a while i had the urge for this gameplay, now im doing missions slowly having fun.

I think everyone needs to do this, quit for a while and when you WANT to get back, dont play like you have to grind it. Do the fun stuff: help noobs, go fishing, weapon collecting...etc.

Instead of trying to argue the impossible, focus on giving useful feedbacks then.
Tell them and their community what would you do better in their places as devs, what you would fix or improve, its the best way to handle it.

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6 minutes ago, Atsia said:

As someone else said, it's not that they don't care, i think it purely resource and time management. I'm sure they'd love to be able to spend the time to make everything perfect, but they've said before, they need to put out new content to survive. I don't think they can afford to spend the time needed to fix without getting the same kind of backlash and cries of content drought we've been getting, especially since most players don't seem to consider reworks as "content".

I understand and agree with that. It's just that more half made toys doesn't really add to the quality or even the identity of Warframe. After Fortuna and Railjack I hope that they really do try to remember and pay attention to their older content rather than ignoring or cutting them like they did Raids.

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13 minutes ago, Lior55 said:

I understand and agree with that. It's just that more half made toys doesn't really add to the quality or even the identity of Warframe. After Fortuna and Railjack I hope that they really do try to remember and pay attention to their older content rather than ignoring or cutting them like they did Raids.

Mostly nitpicky, but I'd say raids are a bad example of that. Most old modes that have been removed were either massively exploited (Dark Sectors, I hear stories of the massive alliances that basically controlled entire planets and forced massive credit costs) or were really underplayed/constantly buggy ( good ol Jordas Verdict). Something like Archwing is a better example imo.

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15 minutes ago, Wilska said:

Like he said, its impossible to keep everyone happy, to fix things faster or nail it the first time. Keep in mind they are always trying. Always releasing new free stuff with good quality.
No other free game have made this far in term of content and quality while keeping it not p2w. 

Look around the others free games in the market, look for the paid triple AAA titles as well, unfinished buggy mess with repetitive formulas.

I understand the end game is kind of painful and repetitive, i felt the same way after doing Sorties everyday until i gave up and stop playing for some time.
After a while i had the urge for this gameplay, now im doing missions slowly having fun.

I think everyone needs to do this, quit for a while and when you WANT to get back, dont play like you have to grind it. Do the fun stuff: help noobs, go fishing, weapon collecting...etc.

Instead of trying to argue the impossible, focus on giving useful feedbacks then.
Tell them and their community what would you do better in their places as devs, what you would fix or improve, its the best way to handle it.

Are you implying that the feedback we're giving now is useless? Saying to just leave and come back is complacent. Also helping noobs, fishing, and weapon collecting is a very subjective form of fun. All fun is subjective. If that's what you want to do then that's fine. It's not about keeping everyone happy; it's about finishing what you start and treating it like you care. I don't think it's impossible to work on their old content to make the game feel more full and well thought out. The endgame is painful and repetitive as you said, and that's not a good thing. We shouldn't ignore that because "its impossible to keep everyone happy". 

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The biggest problem is how DE is constantly pouring out new content and new ideas and new game modes while leaving what they already developed left behind. There's currently more dead content than actual working content in this game. Not because "its so hard to keep everything updated", but simply because they leave all of this behind. It looks like DE sometimes is like a spoiled kid. They get their new toy, play with it, tell about it to all their friends and a short time later they simply leave it behind in a dumpster.

It has been like this since ever to all "new content" they release. Kuva Survival never got a touch again. ESO will likely never had anything added and polished to it. Plains of Eidolon haven't had anything new since February.

I think that the "cherry" on top of this ugly cake is the Iron Wake. It is a nice big location that probably cost DE's a lot of time and resources but it has literally no use value after you play TCOH. It's just there... just existing. Same for Conclave, Lunaro, leaderboards, etc...

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It's this: DE values new content over anything and everything else. This goes back to a story Steve tells about the days when DE was still building Warframe and trying to sell it to a publisher (before they decided to publish it themselves). They were talking with a big-name publisher, and the publisher said, "This game looks great, but it will die within a year, because there's no way you can put out new content fast enough to keep players coming back."

On the list of DE's top ten priorities with regards to Warframe, putting out new content occupies 1-9. And honestly, if you watch the boards in between major content drops—e.g. right now, as we wait for Fortuna—it's hard to argue with them. One of the most recurring complaints around here is "content droughts", long periods between new and interesting stuff (as opposed to new weapons).

Warframe's highest rankings for simultaneous players in-game are when they've just put out something new. Everything in DE's history tells them that if they don't focus on new content, players will leave. So that's what they focus on. Everything else comes second. You can argue with those priorities, but I don't think it's fair to say DE simply presumes the players will support them no matter what. DE focuses on new content because they want to make sure the players continue to support them. If the demand for fixes and more balanced content were loud enough, DE would focus on that instead. But as it stands, the thing players complain about most is not having new content. We're getting what we ask for.

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2 hours ago, Kainosh said:

You say "people want new content".....that is bs.   People want "stuff to do".   It doesn't have to be new, but it must be FUN.  As long as gameplay is fun and addictive, people will come back for more.  

Spamming half baked new content and leaving it be will never actually "fill" the game. It will remain an empty shell.  

 

Exactly. None of us would be feeling so hard this "content drought" if the core gameplay wasn't so repetitive and there were other stuff to do... like Lunaro, Conclave, Clan vs Clan stuff, anything.

I don't consider either SO or Arbitrations to be a new game mode. They just take the same missions we all played since the first 30 minutes we played this game, increase the level, decrease your revive count and add a little gimmick. Since when is this really new content? This is at the very least something that should be in this game since yeaaaars ago.

Every defense mission is the same from Earth to Sedna. Same goes for every exterminate, interception, etc. Only exception to the case is Spy missions. But asides from the spy room themselves, EVERYTHING is and plays the same.

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This is how every veteran I've talked to over the past couple of years seems to feel about the game. We just keep getting this half baked side content that you do once and forget. Nothing to do but grind out a little more mastery.

I kept saying that we wouldn't have a content draught if the content we have was actually worth playing. Everything's an abandoned dead end (or just gets ripped out of the game). Meanwhile the core game is still the same handful of repetitive simplistic mission modes, where we pretty much just sit around waiting for enemies to suicide on our OP weapons, to get the same rewards everywhere. This has gotten worse and worse with the huge power creep and terrible scaling that never got reviewed.

The last decent addition to the game I can think of was spy 2.0. It actually added some content to the core game, and is still the most structured and interesting mission type we have. Assault sounded like it could be good, but nope, it's jut a reskinned mobile defence, tedious and boring.

More mission structure, more varied and optional objectives, things that take advantage of our mobility and varied abilities and aren't just standing around waiting for stuff. A reason to play as a team with different roles, an actual use for things like archwing in common missions, operators that do something other than shoot a kuva cloud. An actual challenge perhaps, that doesn't allow playing half asleep, and isn't reliant on silly and problem prone things like enemy invincibility.

It feels like the game is rather being dumbed down and no effort is made to bring cohesion to all these great gameplay components and content. I think it wouldn't take much to take what's already in the game and just rearrange and tweak it a bit to make a vastly more compelling experience.

 

Edit: I didn't even mention the plains, there's so many glaring problems with it that it's not even possible to discuss it. Basically though it's just another mobile defence node, the worst of the lot.

Edited by Mudfam
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10 hours ago, Amhiel said:

Knowing that, I think the notion of DE half-cooking things because we'll eat anything is just plain wrong. They do it because they're simply spread too thin and a raw steak is better than no steak at all. They've made some miscalculations and management errors lately and they've bitten more than they can chew. Unfortunately now they just can't backtrack and they have to release Fortuna before undergoing any majority strategy changes.

(emphasis mine)

To continue with this analogy, a raw steak that gives you E. Coli is much worse than no steak at all. That's pretty much how I saw sanctuary onslaught. I tried it when it came out and couldn't even reach C rotation once in 3 attempts because the life support timer dropped way too fast. Tried it a week later with exactly the same result. This is something which would have been detected instantly after only a couple of minutes of testing. The fact that an issue as blatant as this made it out into release is just absurd and pushed me from jaded into furious. I've not even looked at it since, will as a result never have khora or the lato/braton vandal... and I just don't care. That game mode was so horrifically broken that I flat out refuse to even look at it again.

And something like that colours my opinion of the game in general. The most recent patch contained: two mediocre weapons (both of which are flat out inferior to several others in their already existing class, so that's 2 cases of 30 and forget), a whole bunch of bugfixes (which admittedly are always nice to have, but it seems as if they could have been pushed out as they were made instead of batching everything up into one release) and one new game mode for which I took one look at the rewards and went "wow, this is all useless crap, it's not worth even attempting". Perhaps later on, if I got less jaded with the game, I might have considered trying out arbitrations, but the abomination that was sanctuary onslaught will forever more spring straight to mind whenever something new comes out. Getting bored with the game makes you stop, but hating the game makes you actively reject it and be willing to spread that opinion to others who might consider trying it. And that's what things which are critically defective on release do. They spawn hatred and rage.

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10 hours ago, Lior55 said:

Are you implying that the feedback we're giving now is useless? Saying to just leave and come back is complacent. Also helping noobs, fishing, and weapon collecting is a very subjective form of fun. All fun is subjective. If that's what you want to do then that's fine. It's not about keeping everyone happy; it's about finishing what you start and treating it like you care. I don't think it's impossible to work on their old content to make the game feel more full and well thought out. The endgame is painful and repetitive as you said, and that's not a good thing. We shouldn't ignore that because "its impossible to keep everyone happy". 

No sir, i'm saying the way you putting this is. You are saying they are leaving unfinished content without being more specific. Make more topics about every single content you think its unfinished and how would you "finish" it, suggest improvements. That's attacking directly the problem and being constructive. You said yourself, fun is subjective, maybe the way the game is considered fun to DE and other players (new players ? old players ?).

Also they do work in the old content, they reworked Ogris for example (introduced on the old update 8 and visually reworked on update 20), they added a few caves inside the plains, made archwings on the plains free. They do work man, i'm saying they could get more help from you if you point exactly how you dont like something and sell this idea to them and community. The game is actively being developed for free, that's a huge thing. Even EA cant get everyone happy and they charge 60$ for title + more $ DLCs and that's it, you play for 6 months and the game dies. You paid 60$ for a dead game, everyone has quit the mp.

Would make a difference if they hold these small updates (2 weapons...) to release on the main big ones ?
You would get a big hiatus of content but would feel like the big updates have brought you more content... For me it looks the same, as long the game is not done. They can keep doing mistakes and fixing them. Maybe we take 2 weeks, 2 months of bad gameplay, but it doesnt change the idea they can still fix it in the future. I'm sure they will revisit sorties, onslaught and improve it.

I'm not saying you're wrong in the way you feel about the game, you have every right to do so, respectfully as you are doing.
My point is: suggest actual improvements where you see fit, that would get them something they could work on. Let the community buy your ideas and they will get noticed.

Like this: 
https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1017786-how-to-make-enemies-hard-ideas/
 

Anyways...
have a nice day brother

 

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3 hours ago, DoomFruit said:

 The most recent patch contained: two mediocre weapons (both of which are flat out inferior to several others in their already existing class, so that's 2 cases of 30 and forget)

Biggest problem of weapons right now is that its just the same, SAME weapons we already have with different stats. Gram Prime? It's just a sword. It has crazy stats, but its. just. a. sword. Rubico Prime? Same thing.

Meanwhile not even long ago: Pyrana Prime with its nice special effect. It's not just a direct upgrade to the Pyrana. Tiberon Prime with 3 fire modes and unique stats for each.

Every time we got a new prime they would tweak the warframe's kit, even if just slightly. What did we got with Chroma Prime? Literally just a new skin for Chroma...

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