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Creation Engine Might Be A Possible Solution To Warframe's Current "State"


nokinoks
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I know there's a lot of proprietary things that must be considered before something like this can be implemented, but for the sake of argument and informing DE of what the community wants, let's ignore that for now and let DE handle that since they're bound to be the expert of proprietary things that involve WF anyway. Also, for now do NOT let security risks like hacking affect your decision, again it is DE that knows more about that so let's leave that to them.

So there's a general "lack" of content. In a way most of us agree and disagree at the same time. I think it's somewhere in the middle that there's not really a lack of content, more like a lack of variety to it. Just to mention, there's a lack of challenge too, but to some people (like me) I want challenging content that revolves around skill and strategy and to some people they want it to be based on killing level 300 enemies and I think there's no wrong in either. 

So let's make it short, the important question I am posing today is this, do you think that a creation engine that will be accessible to people will help our community regarding content?

 

So here's the idea

The engine will be accessible to people. It can be accessible to some or to all, that is DE's choice.

To make it easier for DE, there will be a point system. If you follow the guidelines set by DE then you will have no point deduction and your "creation" will be at a higher queue to be checked by DE for it to pass into the community (more on this in a bit)

If you don't follow the guideline and send bug ridden creations all the time outside of the acceptable limit then your points will go lower and your creation will sit in limbo for a while. This way, DE doesn't have to keep on checking submissions of people who are just submitting thoughtless things or even if they are thoughtful but buggy then that is still a problem and of course for obvious reasons, we should place a system that favors more polished submissions. 

The engine will allow you to create assets and game modes, once it goes through DE, it goes online on a different plane outside of the game. EVERYTHING you get here will NOT go to your main game. And of course people will be able to leave feedback and such.

Regarding monetization, I have no clue. I think something like there will only be money IF and ONLY IF it has achieved a certain set of numbers. This is to avoid people turning warframe into a content farm. So the creators will only make money IF DE earned (or saved) money from it, the statistics will of course be reliant on DE. 

TO MAKE IT CLEAR

this place will most likely be similar to a "beta" server but with content from 3rd party creators. Monetization will only occur when DE (IF DE) chooses to adapt it into the main game and only IF the content reaches a certain statistics. 

tl;dr

let players make their own game using a creation engine from DE

 

UPDATE:

So a lot of knowledgeable people have placed their input and so far this is the aggregate:

1.) The idea is too big and produces a lot of conflict (very true)

2.) It's possible to do something similar to this IF DE gives players more agency to create maps and modes in game. This removes a LOT of the legal stuff and technical hindrances (like having a separate platform, opting in for the game mode you want etc...

3.) I think this is the right direction EVEN if it's not a full blown creation engine, as long as some kind of agency is given where we can go ham then I think DE has basically not only provided a way for bored players to be less bored but some game modes made in game might even be made into something full blown.

4.) This works best though if the players understand that they will receive (probably) no monetary reward and whatever they make is DE's IP, those who don't want to risk their ideas shouldn't use this system. This is the best way that DE can protect itself from a lot of the legal stuff.

 

 

Edited by nokinoks
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1 minute ago, Asphyxxia said:

It would work only if DE monetizes the other platform as well. Some people play for dumb fun, and main game might lose some players to community creations.

what do you mean "other platform"? Like ps4 and such? If that's the case then yeah I agree, if that's not what you mean then what do you mean? xD 

 

But yeah, I think it stands to reason, though maybe less there because more work for DE I'm thinking? 

Also regarding losing players to community creations, I don't really understand what you mean by this since players are still technically playing Warframe using the same login patcher. IF you mean that DE might be affected negatively because players won't have the incentive to spend plats here, then I guess I can't disagree. In this kind of "platform", I don't really know how players can spend money. DE can make a hub or something though, a main hub and let people just fashion frame there, haha. Or something like if they spend the plats, they can use whatever mods/armor/frame available in the main game. This will be like Simulacrum 2.0. 

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56 minutes ago, nokinoks said:

So let's make it short, the important question I am posing today is this, do you think that a creation engine that will be accessible to people will help our community regarding content?

Short answer (insofar as 'custom' content) is, no.

You can start with one of the most obvious issues; syncing the clients.

As it stands, Warframe is a 20-30GB download. Any content created would need to be replicated to every PC running Warframe (or those who 'opt-in'*) meaning the files would be ingested into the main games files. This means any time files are added to the client, every single person around the world is going to be hit with an update. This itself opens DE up to massive legal liability issues if they aren't vetting every single item put up for validity of ownership. This is even worse if DE then try and create the supposed monetization model around it. Bethesda get hit by claims all the time - there are countless mods removed due to copyright. This is swell when you have Zenimax filling your pockets mind (a Parent valued well over $2billion). It also helps the Bethesda aren't actually housing 'created content' within the game files they push out to paying customers. Customers are manually adding files to their installations manually (or so would be argued in court).

*A note on the whole opt-in nature, if the product is opt-in, it's value is already significantly diminished. The return on investment starts to be hard to quantify when you are dealing with a subset of your total playerbase.

56 minutes ago, nokinoks said:

The engine will allow you to create assets and game modes, once it goes through DE, it goes online on a different plane outside of the game. EVERYTHING you get here will NOT go to your main game. And of course people will be able to leave feedback and such.

If a team of industry professionals barley scrape through with minimal bugs, good luck to some random dude trying his hand at creating a custom game mode.

No one working with the scripting system is going to create anything meaningfully different to what we have now. They may change the lvl modifiers, or status effects, but fundamentally, these are already present in the base game (be it sortie, or the Tennocon lvl [insert insane lvl here] enemies).

You also can't just slap assets into any game engine and expect it to be cool with that. Do this with Frostbite and it will crash 9.99/10. Bethesda specifically created the CC to work the way that it works. This is fine, but performance in CC titles are all over the place. You can be flying high (100fps+) one moment, then scrapping along (30fps) the next.

Edited by MillbrookWest
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45 minutes ago, nokinoks said:

I know there's a lot of proprietary things that must be considered before something like this can be implemented, but for the sake of argument and informing DE of what the community wants, let's ignore that for now and let DE handle that since they're bound to be the expert of proprietary things that involve WF anyway. Also, for now do NOT let security risks like hacking affect your decision, again it is DE that knows more about that so let's leave that to them.

So there's a general "lack" of content. In a way most of us agree and disagree at the same time. I think it's somewhere in the middle that there's not really a lack of content, more like a lack of variety to it. Just to mention, there's a lack of challenge too, but to some people (like me) I want challenging content that revolves around skill and strategy and to some people they want it to be based on killing level 300 enemies and I think there's no wrong in either. 

So let's make it short, the important question I am posing today is this, do you think that a creation engine that will be accessible to people will help our community regarding content?

 

So here's the idea

The engine will be accessible to people. It can be accessible to some or to all, that is DE's choice.

To make it easier for DE, there will be a point system. If you follow the guidelines set by DE then you will have no point deduction and your "creation" will be at a higher queue to be checked by DE for it to pass into the community (more on this in a bit)

If you don't follow the guideline and send bug ridden creations all the time outside of the acceptable limit then your points will go lower and your creation will sit in limbo for a while. This way, DE doesn't have to keep on checking submissions of people who are just submitting thoughtless things or even if they are thoughtful but buggy then that is still a problem and of course for obvious reasons, we should place a system that favors more polished submissions. 

The engine will allow you to create assets and game modes, once it goes through DE, it goes online on a different plane outside of the game. EVERYTHING you get here will NOT go to your main game. And of course people will be able to leave feedback and such.

Regarding monetization, I have no clue. I think something like there will only be money IF and ONLY IF it has achieved a certain set of numbers. This is to avoid people turning warframe into a content farm. So the creators will only make money IF DE earned (or saved) money from it, the statistics will of course be reliant on DE. 

 

tl;dr

let players make their own game using a creation engine from DE

 

Well, its an idea.

Kinda similar to the poster who wanted opinions on letting 3rd parties create DLC for the game.

I posted a similar response that these DLCs would either have to be entirely integrated into the existing game, or else sit on separate servers and anything you do while playing these mods / add-ons would have no effect on your main game account.

I think we can take it as a given that DE are not about to let any 3rd party (playable) content onto their servers. Tennogen is one thing, but actual game content...forget it.

A few problems spring to mind. Anything with Warframe content would have to be cleared by DE before it could be released...which would take time. They would be working to their own schedule, not the player base's. Which would likely mean even these would take a LONG time to get approved. So no change to the "content drought" situation.

Also, while this might appeal to some players, many are (or have grown to be) farmers and hoarders. They might not like the idea of spending hours playing mods and not having any nice stuff to show for it at the end.

This is all even assuming DE were prepared to set up a separate server for modded versions of the game and devote time to approving mods...something I don't see them doing.

Then there is the support and monetisation aspects. Are there really people out there in the Tennoverse, willing to invest the time and effort to create mods AND provide support to the players that download their creations? If they were willing to do it for free, that would be one less problem...but if they wanted payment, DE would have to licence them to produce the content and would likely want a cut of any profits.

 

TL:DR its a nice idea in theory, but in practice would involve so much hassle just to get off the ground and likely end up with a product (or products) that only a small percentage of players were happy with.

 

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8 minutes ago, Firetempest said:

So a mission creator ... Just more complex than this WIP.

Dev Stream 81?

So they thought about a similar concept a while back, but at some point figured it was too much to take beyond a dev build. Or its just been shelved indefinitely?

Edited by FlusteredFerret
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9 minutes ago, Firetempest said:

So a mission creator ... Just more complex than this WIP.

devstream 81? You've been through some S#&$ haven't you my friend? xD I suppose it's like that, waaaaay more complex though and on a separate platform.

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You have a lot of really important points and I honestly don't have enough technical know-how to give a solid answer. I suppose the monetization can be handled by a contract, creators need to know what they're getting into and I think they need to understand that this contract will be heavily in DE's favor. If it was any other company, that might sound foul but I think DE can handle this and explain to the community why this contract needs to lean heavily in their favor. 

I hope that most of the challenges here can be solved by a contract that leans heavily with DE. Regarding your other really important points, it's true that players shouldn't be hit with an update each time a mode is made available, a workaround I can think of is one, due to DE already checking these creations, they can ask or even help the creators to make a trailer and DE can publish them on Youtube and other platforms available and so players can choose to download the mode beforehand and they can choose to make it update automatically or manually.

 

You have a lot of really good insight, thanks for sharing!

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You have a lot of really important points and I honestly don't have enough technical know-how to give a solid answer. I suppose the monetization can be handled by a contract, creators need to know what they're getting into and I think they need to understand that this contract will be heavily in DE's favor. If it was any other company, that might sound foul but I think DE can handle this and explain to the community why this contract needs to lean heavily in their favor. 

I hope that most of the challenges here can be solved by a contract that leans heavily with DE. Regarding your other really important points, it's true that players shouldn't be hit with an update each time a mode is made available, a workaround I can think of is one, due to DE already checking these creations, they can ask or even help the creators to make a trailer and DE can publish them on Youtube and other platforms available and so players can choose to download the mode beforehand and they can choose to make it update automatically or manually.

 

You have a lot of really good insight, thanks for sharing!

19 minutes ago, MillbrookWest said:

Short answer (insofar as 'custom' content) is, no.

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17 minutes ago, FlusteredFerret said:

TL:DR its a nice idea in theory, but in practice would involve so much hassle just to get off the ground and likely end up with a product (or products) that only a small percentage of players were happy with.

I guess I need to clarify this (I'll edit my main post) this idea is mostly similar to a "beta" server. All creations here that are good enough will be adapted into the game. 

You also have a lot of really good insight!

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3 minutes ago, Asphyxxia said:

this

 

yes, sorry about this. I failed to make very clear a few things. I don't think the other platform should be monetized, not unless the content there make it into the main game. Your thoughts are valid though, you are right, maybe players won't create things if they won't make money from it. So I suppose a good thing to do if DE considers this idea is to create a poll or some other study to see how this can motivate people to create even though monetization will likely never happen.

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2 hours ago, nokinoks said:

I know there's a lot of proprietary things that must be considered before something like this can be implemented, but for the sake of argument and informing DE of what the community wants, let's ignore that for now and let DE handle that since they're bound to be the expert of proprietary things that involve WF anyway. Also, for now do NOT let security risks like hacking affect your decision, again it is DE that knows more about that so let's leave that to them.

So there's a general "lack" of content. In a way most of us agree and disagree at the same time. I think it's somewhere in the middle that there's not really a lack of content, more like a lack of variety to it. Just to mention, there's a lack of challenge too, but to some people (like me) I want challenging content that revolves around skill and strategy and to some people they want it to be based on killing level 300 enemies and I think there's no wrong in either. 

So let's make it short, the important question I am posing today is this, do you think that a creation engine that will be accessible to people will help our community regarding content?

 

So here's the idea

The engine will be accessible to people. It can be accessible to some or to all, that is DE's choice.

To make it easier for DE, there will be a point system. If you follow the guidelines set by DE then you will have no point deduction and your "creation" will be at a higher queue to be checked by DE for it to pass into the community (more on this in a bit)

If you don't follow the guideline and send bug ridden creations all the time outside of the acceptable limit then your points will go lower and your creation will sit in limbo for a while. This way, DE doesn't have to keep on checking submissions of people who are just submitting thoughtless things or even if they are thoughtful but buggy then that is still a problem and of course for obvious reasons, we should place a system that favors more polished submissions. 

The engine will allow you to create assets and game modes, once it goes through DE, it goes online on a different plane outside of the game. EVERYTHING you get here will NOT go to your main game. And of course people will be able to leave feedback and such.

Regarding monetization, I have no clue. I think something like there will only be money IF and ONLY IF it has achieved a certain set of numbers. This is to avoid people turning warframe into a content farm. So the creators will only make money IF DE earned (or saved) money from it, the statistics will of course be reliant on DE. 

TO MAKE IT CLEAR

this place will most likely be similar to a "beta" server but with content from 3rd party creators. Monetization will only occur when DE (IF DE) chooses to adapt it into the main game and only IF the content reaches a certain statistics. 

tl;dr

let players make their own game using a creation engine from DE

 

if i understand you correctly, you want DE to let the game be mod-able, like skyrim?

Yeah sure, that would happen the day DE release Warframe 2, and selling it at 60$ or more, because that's the only way i see this as something even remotely possible.

(also i think u are underestimate the complications of creation rights DE fought for and the amount of works that make a game mod-able)

Edited by FireSegment
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Or you can see if DE is hiring and submit a resume and a portfolio?

Anyway, there's a lot wrong with your idea. Maybe start with something refined like Halo's forge creator. Only thing is that you won't be able to introduce new mechanics but you'll be able to move in-game assets (not too different from dojo and obstacle course creation) but you'll also have access to the tiles used in stage creation. Then DE can turn on some of the private values and add a UI element so players can tweak enemy levels and modifiers. Maybe some AI values depending on how it's coded and spawn values.

Ultimately, they do have something there for scenario creation but it's all chopped up. As mentioned before, Warframe's tile system makes it perfect for stage creation and we already have controlled spawners and object placement from dojo and obstacle course creation and the Simulacrum.

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7 minutes ago, FireSegment said:

if i understand you correctly, you want DE to let the game be mod-able, like skyrim?

Yeah sure, that would happen the day DE release Warframe 2, and selling it at 60$ or more, because that's the only way i see this as something even remotely possible.

(also i think u are underestimate the complications of creation rights DE fought for and the amount of works that make a game mod-able)

Dude, I sense hostility. I'm not underestimating anything, I'm just saying that IF a creation engine is possible and players might want to chip in by making game modes that maybe the community will like then it's an idea worth considering. It's not a horrible idea, WF has grown a lot and the community is diverse. IF and ONLY IF this "direction" can help DE and benefit the players as well then maybe the community can gather and ask DE to at the least speak about it among themselves. Warframe has a very unique community and it is possible that it could work here. 

Regarding it being modable, no. It's like this, I will make a game mode, have DE check it, once it passes it will go to a different server and players can opt to download and test it or not. If it gains massive community support then DE can discuss it and it can be implemented into the main game. It's like a beta server where both DE and the players can upload beta content and players can check it out.

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6 minutes ago, Goodwill said:

Or you can see if DE is hiring and submit a resume and a portfolio?

Anyway, there's a lot wrong with your idea. Maybe start with something refined like Halo's forge creator. Only thing is that you won't be able to introduce new mechanics but you'll be able to move in-game assets (not too different from dojo and obstacle course creation) but you'll also have access to the tiles used in stage creation. Then DE can turn on some of the private values and add a UI element so players can tweak enemy levels and modifiers. Maybe some AI values depending on how it's coded and spawn values.

Ultimately, they do have something there for scenario creation but it's all chopped up. As mentioned before, Warframe's tile system makes it perfect for stage creation and we already have controlled spawners and object placement from dojo and obstacle course creation and the Simulacrum.

I agree my idea is very unripe and you are right. This is a good thing though, my idea may be overreaching but your is very reasonable. Start small and maybe EVEN make something that can be accessed by all players using already in-game assets similar (I think) to Doom maps. All I'm aiming for is that if players are given agency to create something then maybe we can do more and per your insight, if it is done in game then there will be less conflict. I'll update my post with your insight.

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36 minutes ago, nokinoks said:

Dude, I sense hostility. I'm not underestimating anything, I'm just saying that IF a creation engine is possible and players might want to chip in by making game modes that maybe the community will like then it's an idea worth considering. It's not a horrible idea, WF has grown a lot and the community is diverse. IF and ONLY IF this "direction" can help DE and benefit the players as well then maybe the community can gather and ask DE to at the least speak about it among themselves. Warframe has a very unique community and it is possible that it could work here. 

Regarding it being modable, no. It's like this, I will make a game mode, have DE check it, once it passes it will go to a different server and players can opt to download and test it or not. If it gains massive community support then DE can discuss it and it can be implemented into the main game. It's like a beta server where both DE and the players can upload beta content and players can check it out.

err .... i pretty much understand the "player making a game mode" as mod-able.

And no the problem isn't about community or something like that, the problem is when DE commit to such direction, they can't change the core engine of the game anymore, or can only change very little. That would mean no more rework, no more new mechanic, and even no more new frames or guns, otherwise, the creation engine you mention would be impossible to maintain. That's why i can not see DE doing this without getting Warframe out of the Beta state the game been in for the longest of time, so yeah ... i'm a bit against the implication of it.

 

Edited by FireSegment
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10 minutes ago, FireSegment said:

err .... i pretty much understand the "player making a game mode" as mod-able.

And no the problem isn't about community or something like that, the problem is when DE commit to such direction, they can't change the core engine of the game anymore, or can only change very little. That would mean no more rework, no more new mechanic, and even no more new frames or guns, otherwise, the creation engine you mention would be impossible to maintain. That's why i can not see DE doing this without getting Warframe out of the Beta state the game been in for the longest of time, so yeah ... i'm a bit against the implication of it.

 

I can understand where you're coming from, and for myself I really think that this kind of system where players can create will be quite useful in many ways, and I'm not pushing for an engine, more of a system but I voiced what I knew because that's what I knew. I understand that there's a lot of challenges and I think most of it is solved by drastically evolving the dojo map creation system as per Goodwill's (and other's) insights. If a system is made where players can create maps, spawn enemies, change enemy values (and maybe behavior) set limitations conditions among others then that would be a great system (I think). I could even be something "out" of the game like a browser and the text (code/script) will be applied in game. Since this is for the most part a mechanic in the main game, a lot of the technical and legal hindrances are removed but the essence of the system providing agency for players to create and test is still there.

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I really wish people would stop trying to change a good game. There is a LOT of things missing from this game that I enjoyed most about it. Still an enjoyable game for me but I really miss running til the monsters were 300 and nearly covering the whole place. Had to have a really good team to survive that. Now you can do anything with pugs. Including Sorties. The hardest thing, and it's not even that hard, are the Eidolon Titans. Fishing... WTF? Mining? Are you kidding me? But... it is what it is. I really wish people would stop trying to make this game like every other vanilla game. It has it's uniqueness and that's what got me into it. I have tried 4 shooters and hated them. And then I found Warframe. 4 years and counting.

I really dont care if the idea is good or bad. If you like the features of the other games, play the other games.

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26 minutes ago, ThumpumGood said:

I really wish people would stop trying to change a good game. There is a LOT of things missing from this game that I enjoyed most about it. Still an enjoyable game for me but I really miss running til the monsters were 300 and nearly covering the whole place. Had to have a really good team to survive that. Now you can do anything with pugs. Including Sorties. The hardest thing, and it's not even that hard, are the Eidolon Titans. Fishing... WTF? Mining? Are you kidding me? But... it is what it is. I really wish people would stop trying to make this game like every other vanilla game. It has it's uniqueness and that's what got me into it. I have tried 4 shooters and hated them. And then I found Warframe. 4 years and counting.

I really dont care if the idea is good or bad. If you like the features of the other games, play the other games.

WF is literally people trying to make the game better by telling DE what they think, this right here is part of that process. You have played WF for 4 years and you're telling me that they would have survived all that time if they didn't go through this process right here?

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On 2018-10-19 at 12:04 PM, nokinoks said:

WF is literally people trying to make the game better by telling DE what they think, this right here is part of that process. You have played WF for 4 years and you're telling me that they would have survived all that time if they didn't go through this process right here?

Im not happy with a few of the changes. I prefer doing mission to get materials as opposed to the mind numbing fishing and mining. Makes it feel like Wow or ESO. It feels like they are trying to creat a space version of those games. I wouldnt expect to see rifles, planes or solar system maps in ESO so why should I expect to see mining and fishing here? I dont play shooters cuz the fishing is good.

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DE can't make Warframe moddable outside of skins unless as mentioned, they release it as a $60 - $80 AAA game that is single player or with Private Servers with no more game engine changes from that point on.

That being said it would be nice if it could be moddable.

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