[Spoiler] The Lotus didn't 'use us' - She was Real

[(XBOX)Clockwork Geoff]

Hello,

So I wanted to discuss what people thought of the Lotus after the Chimera Prologue because I hear a lot of people repeating what I heard of DK's YT video; That she 'used us'.

I.e. they believe that she was Natah all the time, and this was some huge sentient deception to make us do their dirty work and weaken the origin system. She pretended to be the Lotus.

I disagree and i think there are many pieces of evidence to show why the Lotus was a 'real' personality of the Sentient who was once called Natah.

1. The New War Trailer - This is a biggie that, for me, really takes apart DK's theory. Basically the 'Mother' is chastising Natah for letting herself fall in love with her Tenno Children; They took your fire from you'. Why would she say this if it's part of the plan? Why does the mother not say - 'good job Natah, the plan has worked and now they are weak'. She doesn't because Natah becoming Lotus wasn't the plan and she was real.

2. Natah Quest - Hunhow also chastises her for siding with the Tenno  -  He says something along the lines of; I won't be able to stop them [other Sentients] they will want to reclaim you because you are riven. Riven meaning 'faulty', Hunhow is saying the others will take her back and reprogramme her. Why? because Natah becoming Lotus wasn't the plan and she was real.

3. The Second Dream - She has absolutely no second thoughts in defending us from the Sentients. No problem and if this is part of the 'Grand Plan', why doesn't she just let Hunhow kill us? What is the point in this charade if it isn't real? Also her 'heartfelt' dialogue at the end of the mission, is so moving and real that it would be the best deception of all time. Yet it isn't because it's real.

4. Practicalities of mission script - The practical need of DE to address the standard Lotus 'patter' we get in basic missions. If she is evil and we have to kill her off (as there is no 'bringing her back' if she's manipulated us the whole time, DE need to address the basic message chat. Will we just have the fake version forever? And why would we if she was full of '****' the whole time? Would DE really go to the effort to rerecord a new 'handler' for these basic missions? Lotus for people pre chains of harrow (lotus) and one for after (Teshin?) - I doubt it. 

5.[added] - The Sacrifice, part of the Lotus remains inside Natah for she guides us to Umbra, a sentient killer. Why would she do this if she never loved us? Is this part of the grand manipulation too? I don't think so.

 

Those are just some major holes in this theory - these are of course my opinions and I may be wrong but wanted to open up that chat because I feel people watch YT theory and think that it's the truth. None of us know the truth yet.

TL;dr - The Lotus was a real personality, she hasn't manipulated us the whole time - the Sentients have just now taken her back

Edited October 19, 2018 by (XB1)Clockwork Geoff
Mistake

[(PSN)WetPollito]

srry, but I prefer Ballas!, I will kill her! 

[(XBOX)Clockwork Geoff]

1 minute ago, (PS4)AleDiorio said:

srry, but I prefer Ballas!, I will kill her! 

NOOOOOO

[Gabbynaru]

I think you're just in the denial stage. Lotus has irked many of us the wrong way from the very beginning, and now we just see her true colors. Whether she used us or not doesn't particularly matter, she constantly leaned on the dark side. Frankly, I'm more than happy to have her taste my Opticor, something I've been waiting for since my first 100 hours in the game, back in 2015.

[rune_me]

I prefer Vay Hek. He's the real space daddy.

[(PSN)WetPollito]

2 minutes ago, (XB1)Clockwork Geoff said:

NOOOOOO

[(XBOX)Clockwork Geoff]

Just now, Gabbynaru said:

I think you're just in the denial stage. Lotus has irked many of us the wrong way from the very beginning, and now we just see her true colors. Whether she used us or not doesn't particularly matter, she constantly leaned on the dark side. Frankly, I'm more than happy to have her taste my Opticor, something I've been waiting for since my first 100 hours in the game, back in 2015.

Ha ha - maybe you are right. Maybe everyone is just happy they possibly have the chance to kill her XD

[FlusteredFerret]

I still wub SpaceMom. 

Though I've only got as far as The Sacrifice. Everything she's done to that point seems only to protect us, or else was through manipulation by Ballas.

That said, I found the Apostasy Prologue confusing as hell. One moment she is Margulis, being sentenced to death and Ballas is asking for her forgiveness. Minutes later she steps from her prison / whatever, removes her helmet and walks off with him...as Natah? Is there something I'm missing, or am I just being dense?

 

[DrBorris]

The idea that The Man in the Wall is manipulating us, Ballas, and possibly the Sentients as well, with the end goal of obliterating the Sentients (and specifically Natah), is seeming like a more viable option day by day (or maybe he has other motives, who knows).

Don't forget that the Sentient actually are not such "bad guys" when you look at their motives, and you can't really blame Hunhow for attacking us given his personal past and that he was explicitly made as a war machine to kill the Orokin.

[(XBOX)Clockwork Geoff]

7 minutes ago, FlusteredFerret said:

I still wub SpaceMom. 

Though I've only got as far as The Sacrifice. Everything she's done to that point seems only to protect us, or else was through manipulation by Ballas.

That said, I found the Apostasy Prologue confusing as hell. One moment she is Margulis, being sentenced to death and Ballas is asking for her forgiveness. Minutes later she steps from her prison / whatever, removes her helmet and walks off with him...as Natah? Is there something I'm missing, or am I just being dense?

 

There's something that makes her confused here. Like for a moment she believes Ballas' truth and goes with him. i believe it is a sentient ploy - he is working with them. When he offers his hand the screen fuzzes like it does in the 2nd dream. He was able to convince her, is all that matters, and then the Sentients got their claws into her and turned her back.

[(PSN)Tactless_Ninja]

A lotus blooms twice. After New War she'll become MECHA LOTUS. 😮 

[Kaotyke]

20 minutes ago, (XB1)Clockwork Geoff said:

Ha ha - maybe you are right. Maybe everyone is just happy they possibly have the chance to kill her XD

I remember people wanting to kill the mission control of the Megaman series and the Admirals... because they always spoke the same things.

Being Mission Control with a background is a job where you have to use a full body armor, because everyone will one day want to kill you for doing your job.

[(XBOX)Clockwork Geoff]

3 minutes ago, Kaotyke said:

I remember people wanting to kill the mission control of the Megaman series and the Admirals... because they always spoke the same things.

Being Mission Control with a background is a job where you have to use a full body armor, because everyone will one day want to kill you for doing your job.

Very good point - I feel people have jumped on the 'Lotus is evil' bandwagon

[(PSN)Pizza_Parker]

I just thought that ballas controled her mind first time she left us and then the sentients totally brainwashed her.

[DeathDweller]

About the trailer she doesn't say "your fire".Still trying to find to find out what it is but even if you slow it down and change the pitch you'll hear 2 words "the something" which ends in a "th" and fire.

[Guest]

The imagery of the Lotus flower is a "beautiful thing that grows from the ugly mud which is the pond bottom". It is poetically used to describe a pure and unstained person who rises above the dirtiness of reality. Yet if we stick with the analogy, the blooms will always fade eventually and sink back into the pond which the plant grows in. No flower will bloom forever. Natah has returned to what she was. The ugly rhizomes which the flowers and leaves grow from to bloom. The flowers were beautiful, yes, but now it has to be accepted that the banquet is finally over.

It seems so hard for everyone to just swallow that the Lotus we know is dead and gone. It doesn't matter if she was good or evil in the past. What matters is now. If your mother took a chainsaw and murdered the neighbors, don't you think it is in the interest of public safety to put her down?

[(XBOX)Clockwork Geoff]

9 minutes ago, Datam4ss said:

The imagery of the Lotus flower is a "beautiful thing that grows from the ugly mud which is the pond bottom". It is poetically used to describe a pure and unstained person who rises above the dirtiness of reality. Yet if we stick with the analogy, the blooms will always fade eventually and sink back into the pond which the plant grows in. No flower will bloom forever. Natah has returned to what she was. The ugly rhizomes which the flowers and leaves grow from to bloom. The flowers were beautiful, yes, but now it has to be accepted that the banquet is finally over.

It seems so hard for everyone to just swallow that the Lotus we know is dead and gone. It doesn't matter if she was good or evil in the past. What matters is now. If your mother took a chainsaw and murdered the neighbors, don't you think it is in the interest of public safety to put her down?

It may be that she is gone. However my point is she was ‘The Lotus’ previously, rather than just pretending.

i agree that Natah has ‘returned’(to whatever degree), but that she was truly the lotus for a period of time.

[Guest]

Just now, (XB1)Clockwork Geoff said:

It may be that she is gone. However my point is she was ‘The Lotus’ previously, rather than just pretending.

i agree that Natah has ‘returned’(to whatever degree), but that she was truly the lotus for a period of time.

The base personality may not change. What you see may only be some ... beautiful embellishment on the surface.

[Arkfall]

I agree with you Clockwork... I believe that Lotus is a real personality. Now that Space Grandma is here, we do not know if Lotus was rebooted, being mind controlled, simply suppressed or what... Only time (and DE) will tell. But we do know she is no long with us.

The part of her leading us to Umbra… how much of that was her, and how much of that was us wanting to find her and using some latent void magic we are not fully aware of yet.

Personally, I was never a fan of the Lotus… she knows everything, yet refuses to trust us enough to tell us anything literally until the Stalker is about to Red-Rum us. And then, we still get more info from Teshin of all people.

We already knew from the Natah quest line that she was a Sentient so that's not a big surprise, and that she betrayed her Father at the last minute to "keep" her new children.

The real question I have right now is ... Ballas clearly went to Hunhow to strike a deal with Him to "Get back" Margulis from the dead, in return Ballas gave Hunhow a plan and means to win the Old War. The real question in my mind is HOW exactly did Hunhow have the ability to bring her back when the Orokin didn't?

My theory as of right now is this:

Using the corpse of Margulis, Hunhow basically gave his Daughter away, like an arranged marriage to Ballas, by having Natah incorporated into Margulis' dead body (using Natah's Oro to fill a dead/empty vessel). Thus giving us "The Lotus" physically, as it were.

However, due to her exposure to the Star-Children, Margulis's Mind/Soul/Will/Feelings still resided in her body, and began to gnaw away at 'Natah' who buckled because she wanted children and though Margulis, got the Tenno as her surrogate children, (who was killed for having the gall to defy the Orokin Lords for her adopted children, so clearly the emotional strength and attachment was there for her) giving emotional birth to "Space Mom" that we all know.

However, the Orokin and the Sentients are a bunch of really SICK bastards... and probably installed devices, similar to the Transference Bolts, found in Warframes and Umbra, in Lotus to ensure she would "play nice" with the plan of being married off to a Orokin (the very people she was intent on Killing/Resisting/Defying).

We know the Lotus's Chamber was under the Reservoir and that Lotus hijacked the Moon into the Void to hid it away from EVERYONE, Ballas Included. The Orokin, despite using the Void for their own ends, do not fully understand and still fear it, and clearly with good reason. We can also infer from all this that Margulis' Body was in fact used, to hide the presence of Natah from the Orokin as she was moved into position for the Coup by Ballas. (See Hunhow hiding in War, and Stalker at the end of Second Dream and showing up in the void, relatively unaffected by being in Sentient's personal hell-scape).

Hiding the Moon after the coup was as much for her protection as it was ours, it kept Ballas away, it keep the Sentients away, it put everyone in their own corner to play their own games.

Then Vor had to go and #*!% with S#&$.

[DeathDweller]

29 minutes ago, Arkfall said:

Using the corpse of Margulis, Hunhow basically gave his Daughter away, like an arranged marriage to Ballas, by having Natah incorporated into Margulis' dead body (using Natah's Oro to fill a dead/empty vessel). Thus giving us "The Lotus" physically, as it were.

 

 

 

Dying to Jade light doesn't leave a corpse behind.

So my guess would be the pop up orokin message.I believe it's the moment that someone transfers Margulis soul.

Maybe Margulis striked a deal with Natah?Maybe with someone else or just did it herself and even Ballas didn't know.

[Vanille]

The sentients don't need us to weaken the origin system. We're the only thing that can stop them, why would Natah/other sentients pretend to be with us when they could have killed us right away easily instead. No one else has void power/technology to be a threat to sentients but the Tenno and their warframes. So if in the end it's true that the theory of Natah actually using us from the very begining, it's gonna be a bad written plot.

[fishworshipper]

5 minutes ago, Kiwinille said:

The sentients don't need us to weaken the origin system. We're the only thing that can stop them, why would Natah/other sentients pretend to be with us when they could have killed us right away easily instead. No one else has void power/technology to be a threat to sentients but the Tenno and their warframes. So if in the end it's true that the theory of Natah actually using us from the very begining, it's gonna be a bad written plot.

We’re not the only ones that can stop them, though. Remember the Grineer Lancer synthesis? The Lancers are all clones of a guy who fought a Sentient in hand-to-hand combat and *won*. The Corpus have been collecting pieces of Sentients, likely by killing them. The full force of the Grineer and Corpus, united by a common enemy, may be able to push back against the Sentients.

[rand0mname]

You think Lotus was "reclaimed" and is no longer "riven"? Interesting theory. It certainly explains certain inconsistencies in Lotus/Natah behavior. I am on the fence about this situation. Would love to have more information about what the hell happened before going in for the kill.

Why belive everything we are shown without question? I bet many would love to replace Lotus as someone who tells Tenno who to kill.

Why should Tenno trust Wally or Ballas more then Lotus? One is an eldrich abomination with unknown motives, but likes to drive people mad, paints walls with blood and haunts our ship in spare time. Another is... well, many things, but definitely not a good guy with "that devils" best interests at heart.

Will Tenno always listen to the first "nice" stranger who gives them edgy toys and tells them who to kill with said toys? Maybe it is time for Tenno to grow up, find out the whole history and decide who to kill (or not) by themselves 😉.

Edited October 19, 2018 by rand0mname

[CriticalFumble]

10 minutes ago, fishworshipper said:

We’re not the only ones that can stop them, though. Remember the Grineer Lancer synthesis? The Lancers are all clones of a guy who fought a Sentient in hand-to-hand combat and *won*. The Corpus have been collecting pieces of Sentients, likely by killing them. The full force of the Grineer and Corpus, united by a common enemy, may be able to push back against the Sentients.

Bear in mind that they're fighting what little Sentient forces are in Sol now.  Hunhow himself is apparently in the system, but he's not in the best shape either.  Its not a good indication of how powerful they are - especially considering the Orokin had all the resources and more of the Grineer and Corpus and were still pushed to the brink by the Sentient. 

As far as the Lotus goes, its still way up in the air as to what's really happening.  Though I increasingly wonder if the "Dream, not of what you are, but of who you want to be."  line was partially directed at herself. 

Edited October 19, 2018 by CriticalFumble

[fishworshipper]

2 minutes ago, CriticalFumble said:

Bear in mind that they're fighting what little Sentient forces are in Sol now.  Hunhow himself is apparently in the system, but he's not in the best shape either.  Its not a good indication of how powerful they are - especially considering the Orokin had all the resources and more of the Grineer and Corpus and were still pushed to the brink by the Sentient. 

As far as the Lotus goes, its still way up in the air as to what's really happening.  Though I increasingly wonder if the "Dream, not of what you are, but of who you want to be."  line was partially directed at herself. 

Of course, but also keep in mind that the vast majority of their military might is directed at eachother. My point in saying that they are capable of killing individual Sentients is that with the full backing of their military they might be able to take on more than we think they can, and certainly enough to give the Sentients pause about brute forcing it.