[Spoiler] The Lotus didn't 'use us' - She was Real

[Liarus]

Le 19/10/2018 à 19:21, (PS4)AleDiorio a dit :

srry, but I prefer Ballas!, I will kill her! 

Im with you !

[(PSN)Lowk721]

On 2018-11-23 at 11:59 AM, 8lbs said:

the instructions that we blindly follow, capture this agent, exterminate this battalion, steal this data and more. the is a THREAT to everything in the system not because of the power she commands (the tenno) but because of the information she gathers. Impo i do not think the lotus was neutral. we were just another faction working against the others in the system. the tenno *now* without the lotus are free agents and truly neutral, however with the lotus at the head we were used to facillitate her long term goals. a sleeper agent who effectively secured power to use for sentient gain. 

Haven't looked at it in a while but alerts used to give a snippets of reasoning behind what they did. Like rescues were kidnapped political figures or colonist or rebels. The tenno after the Orokin weren't neurtal either and they continue to not be. They are the equivalent to vigilante mercs that cater to specific people because of the issues they had with people like the orokin. Lotus knows how the Tenno are what thier goals were and catered to their needs like a parent spoiling thier child. I'd call her a manager but she doesn't really get paid.

She also doesn't force the Tenno on a mission. This much is further noted in the plains. She gives leads and makes suggestion but whether the Tenno follows or not is up to the tenno. She was less a leader and more a figurehead.

 

[(XBOX)KVNG SWAY8483]

On 2018-10-19 at 11:21 AM, (PS4)AleDiorio said:

srry, but I prefer Ballas!, I will kill her! 

I’ll end you. RADIAL HOWL!!

[Sitchrea]

On 2018-10-19 at 12:39 PM, Kaotyke said:

@fishworshipper I will say that logic is flawed as all hell, let me quote a post I made about "Natah letting everyone recover and then using the Tenno to weaken them" in another thread the bolded part is the one of interest:

 

We have.

Crewman Synthesis:

  Hide contents

They opened the chamber door just in time for me to see it happen; the Archimedian erupting into a flash, jade-like and blinding. I knew her. She was the greatest scholar of genetics who ever lived. Except now she was nothing but mist and gore.

 

Brilliantly stated. It's impossible for Natah to have knowingly deceived us for this long - the plot and timeline just don't make sense if that's the case.

[Horaciozhao]

I agree, I think Lotus and Natah are basicly two people sharing a body, even Lotus herself refer Natah like a different person. Whatever Ballas did to Lotus supressed that personality and allowed Natah to re-surface. I have been looking at the final scene of Sacrifice a lot of times, if you put the subtitle on, it reads "This...is what I am." combining with the voice acting of the phrase, it doesn´t sound like someone who just achieved her grand scheme, but like someone who´s in pain and confusion. Plus, the whole Umbra and Sacrifice actually started because Lotus´s voice guided us to see what happened to Umbra, why would she do that if she´s just using us?

[8lbs]

On 2018-11-23 at 4:22 PM, Cubewano said:

The potential for evil does not equate to one being evil

This is probably my favorite quote on this thread, and it is astoundingly true;

However, an agent that doesnt know that they are an agent is the most effective kind, as they believe that their actions are their own. The New War trailer shows clearly that some level of manipulation has been/is taking place. Ballas is no saint either and should not be trusted. SInce the Lotus turned her weapons on us she has made it clear that she is no longer on our side. even if she doesnt know which side she is on (as is also implied in the new war trailer) we know she is a hostile enemy.

 

[Loza03]

Just now, 8lbs said:

. SInce the Lotus turned her weapons on us she has made it clear that she is no longer on our side. even if she doesnt know which side she is on (as is also implied in the new war trailer) we know she is a hostile enemy.

Actually she didn't. Watch that scene and compare it to Umbra's death scene.

In Umbra's death scene she points a claw at Umbra and fires a purple beam that annihilates Umbra. In the final scene she doesn't do anything, it's the mimics behind her. Yellow beams. She's capable of firing her own weapon, those claws are free, yet she doesn't fire.

[8lbs]

6 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

those claws are free, yet she doesn't fire.

her claws arnt free though she was holding Ballas. though i do see what youre saying

[Loza03]

1 minute ago, 8lbs said:

her claws arnt free though she was holding Ballas. though i do see what youre saying

Except she's using those weird tentacle things. Her claws are completely limp by her sides.

[Cubewano]

16 hours ago, 8lbs said:

This is probably my favorite quote on this thread, and it is astoundingly true;

However, an agent that doesnt know that they are an agent is the most effective kind, as they believe that their actions are their own. The New War trailer shows clearly that some level of manipulation has been/is taking place. Ballas is no saint either and should not be trusted. SInce the Lotus turned her weapons on us she has made it clear that she is no longer on our side. even if she doesnt know which side she is on (as is also implied in the new war trailer) we know she is a hostile enemy.

 

Then who is she an agent for because it clearly isn't her mother/father, who chastised her for her behavior against their faction, in private where there is no further reason to put on an act. And furthermore to what end? The universe was entirely vulernable after the Lotus got her hands on the tenno, ripe for control by the Sentients, but instead she all but halted that progression and allowed the system to establish new order and power structures that would only bolster their ability to fend off foreign invaders in the future. She wasn't helping make the universe easier for domination, so what was she supposedly being manipulated into doing? It's also not at all clear she is no longer on our side, yes people on her side fired on us, but that's nothing new, and if she was playing double agent again but for us it wouldn't be in her or our best interest for her to tell all sentients they can't harm us as that would be incredibly telling of where her allegiance truly is. What's worth noting is nothing extreme has happened to us under her eye, nothing with clear intent to harm us or ultimately prevent us a victory in this coming battle, we've never come away from an encounter even harmed, in-fact quite the opposite, we come away fully intact and with new potent weapons to help us in the future. The "firing squad" we encountered during the sacrifice was about as half handed as an assault can get, there was a single firing in which no shots landed, the most dangerous unit in the room made no attempt to fire at us, and after the single round of warning shots (i mean lets be real the lotus knew none of them would really harm us, against us or not) ended they left immediately albeit doing us no harm, not acquiring/destroying our new weapon, with the Lotus making an oddly informative but entirely unnecessary declaration as to what she was doing/where she was heading. 

Edited December 5, 2018 by Cubewano

[Sitchrea]

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

Actually she didn't. Watch that scene and compare it to Umbra's death scene.

In Umbra's death scene she points a claw at Umbra and fires a purple beam that annihilates Umbra. In the final scene she doesn't do anything, it's the mimics behind her. Yellow beams. She's capable of firing her own weapon, those claws are free, yet she doesn't fire.

Those Mimics are Natah's fragments, like how the Conculysts and Battalysts on Lua are Hunhow's. If we assume she had the same control over her fragments as Hunhow does his, Natah did indeed try to kill us.

However, I do not think she know which side she is on anymore. Natah is a notoriously emotional and immature Sentient.

[Loza03]

Just now, Sitchrea said:

Those Mimics are Natah's fragments, like how the Conculysts and Battalysts on Lua are Hunhow's. If we assume she had the same control over her fragments as Hunhow does his, Natah did indeed try to kill us.

However, I do not think she know which side she is on anymore. Natah is a notoriously emotional and immature Sentient.

Is there any evidence they're Natah's fragments though?

They're the wrong colour for one. They're all red, a colour typically associated with Hunhow and occasionally the Eidolon.

The only proof I can find is that they've not been seen since the old war... but most sentients haven't been seen since the Old War. They're also frequently seen alongside Hunhow's fragments and share aesthetics with them - every sentient we've seen thus far has sported different aesthetics. Hunhow's has an vaguely insect/crustacean vibe, Natah is more organic-looking and fleshy and the Eidolon seems to channel more mammalian skeletons, at least in the appearance of the bones - for example, a lot of 'ribs' and 'spines' as opposed to the smooth bones of Hunhow's fragments.

The only evidence that they are is that they've not been seen since the Old War... but neither had Oculysts, Conculysts and Battalysts. Frankly, most sentients hadn't been seen since the Old War, and to our knowledge, no traditionally living ones. Generally speaking, we've encountered Sentients that are off and about searching for instead of going to places where they're active, so it makes sense that Mimics, ambush units, wouldn't show up until we start following something in a predictable pattern so an ambush may sprung. They know we're chasing Umbra, Umbra is here, so deploy the Mimics to catch us. Once we stop, they disappear again, or are at least a whole lot rarer (I've heard people have found them outside the quest, but I've never encountered a wild Mimic personally).

[Sitchrea]

3 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Is there any evidence they're Natah's fragments though?

They're the wrong colour for one. They're all red, a colour typically associated with Hunhow and occasionally the Eidolon.

The only proof I can find is that they've not been seen since the old war... but most sentients haven't been seen since the Old War. They're also frequently seen alongside Hunhow's fragments and share aesthetics with them - every sentient we've seen thus far has sported different aesthetics. Hunhow's has an vaguely insect/crustacean vibe, Natah is more organic-looking and fleshy and the Eidolon seems to channel more mammalian skeletons, at least in the appearance of the bones - for example, a lot of 'ribs' and 'spines' as opposed to the smooth bones of Hunhow's fragments.

The only evidence that they are is that they've not been seen since the Old War... but neither had Oculysts, Conculysts and Battalysts. Frankly, most sentients hadn't been seen since the Old War, and to our knowledge, no traditionally living ones. Generally speaking, we've encountered Sentients that are off and about searching for instead of going to places where they're active, so it makes sense that Mimics, ambush units, wouldn't show up until we start following something in a predictable pattern so an ambush may sprung. They know we're chasing Umbra, Umbra is here, so deploy the Mimics to catch us. Once we stop, they disappear again, or are at least a whole lot rarer (I've heard people have found them outside the quest, but I've never encountered a wild Mimic personally).

Natah is a Sentient able to change her physical appearance, Mimics are Sentient fragments able to change their appearance. It's likely that Mimics had been in stealth mode across the system for a very long time, which is what allowed Lotus to have all of her real-time information. She could literally sense it from her fragments, the Mimics.

[Loza03]

27 minutes ago, Sitchrea said:

Natah is a Sentient able to change her physical appearance, Mimics are Sentient fragments able to change their appearance. It's likely that Mimics had been in stealth mode across the system for a very long time, which is what allowed Lotus to have all of her real-time information. She could literally sense it from her fragments, the Mimics.

Ok, but how do we know this isn't a universal property of sentients? It's not impossible to assume since other sentients display estoric abilities like teleportation and such, as well as seeming being able to adjust their body into the fragments they produce (we briefly see Hunhow out the window in TSD opening, and he's not covered in Battalyst and Conculyst parts, nor is he covered in areas where they might have come from, indicating they were shape-shifted into that form).

Once again, all the Sentients have a distinct aesthetic. Whilst there are shared elements - weird, line-based textures, a vaguely boney structure and non-human appearance, each one has different emphasis.

Hunhow's is the least human - they're abstract, whilst also looking vaguely crab-like. More of their components are smooth, like bone (although not all). A unique trademark of his is disconnected, levitating parts and energy patterns. This partially shows up in Natah - she levitates like Hunhow's fragments do, probably because she's his progeny, it's an 'inherited' trait. A few parts have raised sections - parts of the War sword and some components of his fragments have raised components, but nowhere near as ubiquitous as on the Eidolons.

The Eidolon goes all-in on the bone part look  - if we also consider the Amp parts and giant fossils, it has distinctly ribbed sections. It's also the most human, or at least animal-like - the Larger Eidolons all have four limbs as all mammalian animals do. Vomvalysts are Skulls. That could also be considered it's trademark. Hovering does show up, but isn't a universal trait amongst all its fragments - even the Flydolon has a walking form.

Lastly, the Lotus goes so far into the line-based textures as to mimic flesh and muscle. Almost every inch of her design is covered in some kind of pattern, several places looking like they're practically organic less than bone. These 'organic' components seem to be her thing - note how on her Sentient form there seem to be parts resembling insect legs near her Faux head. Ballas also sports this kind of design, indicating that it's her doing. Additionally, there's also the key fact that unlike the other Sentients which are generally red, blue or white and  always brightly coloured, Lotus is Purple and other dark colours, as is Ballas.

What I'm trying to say is that all the Sentients look subtly different and have subtly different designs. Mimics don't seem to fit Natah's look, so it doesn't follow that mimics, using a look more akin to Hunhow's fragments, would belong to her.

(Interestingly, Revenant and Chroma, two frames with Sentient parts also sport something similar to Natah's crazy patterns, although theirs are much deeper than Nattah's and have touches from other looks, like the spots of light that many frames have on Chroma or Eidolon-like parts on Revenant. Given that we're her 'Children', this could be seen as our 'inherited trait' of sorts.)

[Fire2box]

I don't care, let's throw her into the sun so vay hek can shut up for once.