Jump to content

Why Chess, a 1500 year old game is still popular, and what warframe can learn


helioth137
 Share

Recommended Posts

Very simply put, Chess is a true measure of skill and mental abilities

There are 6 (pawn, castle, knight, bishop, queen, king) different types of pieces,

all with their distinct movement patterns, but only 64 squares, the playing field is level.

What can war-frame learn from this? What do you think it can? First up: Our enemies are never equal

Personally, I see the lack of their ability to counter what we do, as well as play as a team as a big issue

also, the rare satisfaction from "Countering" what they do, makes the game worth playing, to me:

there is a lack necessity to think ahead, implement this, and the quality of the game goes up

One of the biggest problems I see is that a lot of frames feel like they can do everything,

sure, there are vague categories like stealth, healer, buffer, tank, damage dealer, hybrid 

But once you reach certain gear milestones, everything just melts infront of you, with little to no challenge.

I think that's one of the things warframe players both seriously miss, and also enjoy.

Challenge, Tenn o, ultimately makes us who we are.

A Crisis of any kind, reveals our character.

Gaining ever higher levels of mastery

Should make us ready to face 

hard and harder challenges


not softer and softer because they are easier in relative terms

Do you agree/ disagree/ have anything to add?

Edited by helioth137
Link to comment
Share on other sites

ive reread everything i feel dumb now but thats the problem power comes ease we have too much for what we want challenge wise its a conflict of theme really 

still id be game for a chess board decoration that you can play 

Edited by seprent
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree, however the community attitude reflects a casual base imo and they kinda want things easy.
 

Without Enemy Variation, There Can Be No Endgame

DE Is Not Challenging Us In The Right Ways

The problems that persist in Warframes EndGame exist because of a lack of enemy variation and combat styles.

DE, does not challenge the way we think or engage with enemies. The answer to "EndGame" keeps coming back to the same issues when they don't have an answer to Warframe abilities.

Here's what always happens when new "endgame" is released

  1. Limit Warframe Powers
  2. Invincible enemies.

DE needs to introduce enemy variations to produce a meaningful end game. What do I mean by that?

Let enemies below lv 60 remain as they are now. Let players live out their immortal fantasies on the scrubs we encounter at the moment. Going further however, we need to see enemy variants.

Lets take a look at Grineer Scorch for example.latest?cb=20140318213715

  1. When players combat him at level 60 and below, allow them to continue their current efforts of just 1 shotting as normal. 
  2. Above level 60 give him a Riot shield with his flamethrower, but also give him a propane tank on his back.
  3. If a player shoots from the front they are met with resistance, however if a player shoots the enemy in the back they are met with an explosion to the propane tank (4 second delay to explode) and an AoE attack because of the explosion.
  4. For melee players, when you walk directly in front of a Grineer they always melee. Give the Grineer a charge attack for up close encounters but also give players an indicator or QT event so they can block, allow the game to introduce it as a parry and slash the enemy as you move behind the in the same automated motion. 

This is just one example of many I. (I'd love for a particular Corpus unit to place down 4 beacons down to create a plasma shield similar to what these things come out of to reflect neutralize beam weapons.147nu8edkqzy.jpg

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thing is, chess is only "a true measure of skill and mental abilities" when you match two human players against each other. Warframe is not PvP, so it doesn't really compare.

The moment you match a human player vs an AI in chess, it stops being about skills and mental abilities. Because chess AI's these days can beat every grandmaster that ever were. The only way to make a "fair" chess AI, is to intentionally limit it and make it "dumber" than it has to be. Hence chess in that situation instead just becomes about how many calculations you allow the AI before it takes a move, and that is what determines if you can beat it or not.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, rune_me said:

Thing is, chess is only "a true measure of skill and mental abilities" when you match two human players against each other. Warframe is not PvP, so it doesn't really compare.

The moment you match a human player vs an AI in chess, it stops being about skills and mental abilities. Because chess AI's these days can beat every grandmaster that ever were. The only way to make a "fair" chess AI, is to intentionally limit it and make it "dumber" than it has to be. Hence chess in that situation instead just becomes about how many calculations you allow the AI before it takes a move, and that is what determines if you can beat it or not.

This is very true as a counter to his argument but I get where he's coming from. Warframe is a mindless shooter, and for me, it kinda hurts the game in the long run. In the beginning its cool but later on it just feels hollow as there's no thinking involved at all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

This is very true as a counter to his argument but I get where he's coming from. Warframe is a mindless shooter, and for me, it kinda hurts the game in the long run. In the beginning its cool but later on it just feels hollow as there's no thinking involved at all.

Not that I don't get what you're saying, but you basically just described every mastery curve out there. Things get easier, and more automatic (from a thought process standpoint), the more you do them; that's what practice is.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

33 minutes ago, helioth137 said:

Very simply put, Chess is a true measure of skill and mental abilities

There are 6 (pawn, castle, knight, bishop, queen, king) different types of pieces,

all with their distinct movement patterns, but only 64 squares, the playing field is level.

What can war-frame learn from this? What do you think it can? First up: Our enemies are never equal

Personally, I see the lack of their ability to counter what we do, as well as play as a team as a big issue

also, the rare satisfaction from "Countering" what they do, makes the game worth playing, to me:

there is a lack necessity to think ahead, implement this, and the quality of the game goes up

One of the biggest problems I see is that a lot of frames feel like they can do everything,

sure, there are vague categories like stealth, healer, buffer, tank, damage dealer, hybrid 

But once you reach certain gear milestones, everything just melts infront of you, with little to no challenge.

I think that's one of the things warframe players both seriously miss, and also enjoy.

Challenge, Tenn o, ultimately makes us who we are.

A Crisis of any kind, reveals our character.

Gaining ever higher levels of mastery

Should make us ready to face 

hard and harder challenges


not softer and softer because they are easier in relative terms

Do you agree/ disagree/ have anything to add?

Erm, why are you comparing a PvP game to a PvE one?

Chess has no backstory or lore to work around / continue in a logical way. The game works the same way and has the same rules every time. The "challenge" of chess is based on the abilities of the respective players and also rests largely on the huge number of possible moves. The playing field (player ability aside) is perfectly level and unchanging.

Warframe has virtually nothing in common with chess, other than the combat theme.

I fail to see what point you are trying to make here...unless its another thinly-veiled "lack of challenging endgame" thread.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm having a hard time following your train of thought.
The only thing I want out of Warframe is epic boss battles.

Arbitration and Eidolons are kind of there but at Arbitration you are dying from random things sometimes and at Eidolons it's a setup thing rather than a skill thing.

For what I want the game engine would have to be revamped or the way we play will have to be revamped.
Combine Warframe's PvE system with Vindictus' PvE system and we would have the perfect game for me to play.

Say, you took Kai's crossgun PvE mechanics, adopted them to Warframe.
Then you take the melee character's weapons' PvE mechanics and adopted them to Warframe.
Then you introduce boss battles which requires dodging, evading, and attacking rolled into one seamless system whereas now it's basically just attacking with overwhelming power.
 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

41 minutes ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

I agree, however the community attitude reflects a casual base imo and they kinda want things easy.
 

Without Enemy Variation, There Can Be No Endgame

DE Is Not Challenging Us In The Right Ways

The problems that persist in Warframes EndGame exist because of a lack of enemy variation and combat styles.

DE, does not challenge the way we think or engage with enemies. The answer to "EndGame" keeps coming back to the same issues when they don't have an answer to Warframe abilities.

Here's what always happens when new "endgame" is released

  1. Limit Warframe Powers
  2. Invincible enemies.

DE needs to introduce enemy variations to produce a meaningful end game. What do I mean by that?

Let enemies below lv 60 remain as they are now. Let players live out their immortal fantasies on the scrubs we encounter at the moment. Going further however, we need to see enemy variants.

Lets take a look at Grineer Scorch for example.latest?cb=20140318213715

  1. When players combat him at level 60 and below, allow them to continue their current efforts of just 1 shotting as normal. 
  2. Above level 60 give him a Riot shield with his flamethrower, but also give him a propane tank on his back.
  3. If a player shoots from the front they are met with resistance, however if a player shoots the enemy in the back they are met with an explosion to the propane tank (4 second delay to explode) and an AoE attack because of the explosion.
  4. For melee players, when you walk directly in front of a Grineer they always melee. Give the Grineer a charge attack for up close encounters but also give players an indicator or QT event so they can block, allow the game to introduce it as a parry and slash the enemy as you move behind the in the same automated motion. 

This is just one example of many I. (I'd love for a particular Corpus unit to place down 4 beacons down to create a plasma shield similar to what these things come out of to reflect neutralize beam weapons.147nu8edkqzy.jpg

 

 

Some good points there.

I do think that introducing some new characteristics / behaviours for high level enemies could go a long way to creating a proper challenge for veteran players. Give them different weapons, defences and methods of attack, instead of just creating damage sponges that simply take a bit longer to defeat.

DE could treat high level enemies as elite units that are better trained and equipped, compared to the lower level "grunts" that newer players will face.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, cheliel said:

the game has nullifiers, armor scale, disruptors, healers that one has to dispatch first lest they counter your damage/abilities 

None of these offer a real challenge though by the point you learned the game mechanics and modding meta unless you're playing a squishy frame that relies heavily on what these units were meant to counter and they can be dealt with using cheese methods, Nullifiers can be spammed with high RoF weapons or explosives, you don't even need to hit their drones (which usually glitch into walls or simply don't spawn anyways), Armor -Slash-Viral-Corrosive, Healers/Disruptors okay they have unique buffs and are vulnerable to different damage types than infested trash mobs but they can be dealt with just as easily unless their auras stack at bs levels, same for other ancients.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1500 years old? Woah, that’s the longest content drought I’ve ever seen. Also one of the biggest complaints of warframe as of recently.

dont get me wrong; I understand what you’re saying and I agree that this game needs better approaches to strategic gameplay. I’m just not sure if chess is a good analogy, some of the reasons listed in the other comments. Perhaps DnD or another continuously-changing Player Vs. house/environment is a better analogy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, helioth137 said:

Very simply put, Chess is a true measure of skill and mental abilities

There are 6 (pawn, castle, knight, bishop, queen, king) different types of pieces,

all with their distinct movement patterns, but only 64 squares, the playing field is level.

What can war-frame learn from this? What do you think it can? First up: Our enemies are never equal

Personally, I see the lack of their ability to counter what we do, as well as play as a team as a big issue

also, the rare satisfaction from "Countering" what they do, makes the game worth playing, to me:

there is a lack necessity to think ahead, implement this, and the quality of the game goes up

One of the biggest problems I see is that a lot of frames feel like they can do everything,

sure, there are vague categories like stealth, healer, buffer, tank, damage dealer, hybrid 

But once you reach certain gear milestones, everything just melts infront of you, with little to no challenge.

I think that's one of the things warframe players both seriously miss, and also enjoy.

Challenge, Tenn o, ultimately makes us who we are.

A Crisis of any kind, reveals our character.

Gaining ever higher levels of mastery

Should make us ready to face 

hard and harder challenges


not softer and softer because they are easier in relative terms

Do you agree/ disagree/ have anything to add?

I suppose it is very difficult to implement in Warframe

Quoting your very first words
"Chess is a true measure of skill and mental abilities"


Oh look the enemy is shooting at you, instead of running behind cover use iron skin, 
what kind of mental abilities is required ? instead of accessing the environment and making use 
just strap on mods to cancel out the need for a brain ?

Look the enemies, you have a gun, instead of shooting at them, press 4 to melt them away.
Seriously what kind of skill does it involve in pressing a button to skip all the contents ?

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

our WF counters are dealt with by prioritizing, this vid suggests rewarding the player for timing counters/parries 

as far as offense, defense, mechanics goes warframe is more than capable. just maybe add some more counters involving timing?

fighting games have this reversal/parry system but so does WF in melee vs melee.

a bullet reversal/parry frame could do the trick- perhaps Mag reworked as bullet reflector? 

Edited by cheliel
Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, Fishyflakes said:

Personally I think chess is boring as hell.

You might want to play against really good chess players then.

Using chess clocks also adds to the competitiveness of the game as it puts stress on you, forcing you to think faster which is why they always use it in championships and almost always in smaller competitions. (basically just about everywhere outside "friendly" practice matches)

I agree, it takes a lot of focus and a particular type of person and state of mind to really enjoy though, hard to enjoy when you're distracted by other thoughts.

Edited by kgabor
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I imagine chess is like micromanaging 6 different frames in one battlefield-

Tower, Knight, Bishop, King, Queen and Pawn frames with each abilities, strengths, weaknesses 

Meanwhilewhile warframe is like a Queen piece going against pawns with random bishops here and there that can counter your movement 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, fishworshipper said:

Actual challenge for fully geared up players would require an overhaul of literally every aspect of the game. Never going to happen.

They just need to change the numbers, first and foremost. The base dmg of our guns, our Hp and Hp of our enemies, mods and few other things. It will take time, but it's only the matter of time before this game falls like a tower of cards. There will be a point when you can't, but not notice the problem with the base of this game

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, fishworshipper said:

Actual challenge for fully geared up players would require an overhaul of literally every aspect of the game. Never going to happen.

Can I build on this?

Warframe is a game about grinding to get stronger, so that grinding for your next level of power is easier. Thus, when DE wants to add new stuff, it's already easy for the people who have everything else to grind for it. This means the new stuff either A) doesn't make the vets stronger so they decry it as a waste, or B) makes the vets stronger, making the grind even easier, perpetuating the paradox

I really can't blame DE designing for spectacle (open worlds) if that's the rod they made for their own back 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...