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Why Chess, a 1500 year old game is still popular, and what warframe can learn


helioth137
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I've said this a few times before but it never really got much attention, so I'll try to make it brief to avoid TLDR.

1. What warframe needs is less fodder and more quality enemies in higher level missions.

2. Less Time to Kill requirements, more Able to kill or not checks.

3. Less Brute Force, more Finesse.

4. Frame power contribution comes too much from mods. Half all mod affects, add choose-able talents to each warframe that covers the basic Duration/Efficiency/Range/Strength and Health/Shields/Armor categories. Each talent point should be rewarded only after a meaningful success in game play, not time sink.

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3 hours ago, BlueFan99 said:

They just need to change the numbers, first and foremost. The base dmg of our guns, our Hp and Hp of our enemies, mods and few other things. It will take time, but it's only the matter of time before this game falls like a tower of cards. There will be a point when you can't, but not notice the problem with the base of this game

“They just need to change the numbers” yea, and to solve world hunger we just need to better distribute the food we produce. Really easy to talk about, a lot harder to actually do.

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Warframe has several unique enemies with mechanics that could provide a challenge beyond numbers scaling. Problem is....community always complains and has those enemies nerfed until you dont even realise that they weren't meant to be regular fodder. As a player base, we have proven we prefer mindless bullet sponges more than anything.

Edited by Hypernaut1
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7 hours ago, BlueFan99 said:

They just need to change the numbers, first and foremost. The base dmg of our guns, our Hp and Hp of our enemies, mods and few other things. It will take time, but it's only the matter of time before this game falls like a tower of cards. There will be a point when you can't, but not notice the problem with the base of this game

People have been saying this for the past FIVE YEARS.  It is getting a little tiring listening to prophets say what the future will hold in terms of the doom of this game and they are wrong...every single time.  

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10 hours ago, uAir said:

Then you introduce boss battles which requires dodging, evading, and attacking rolled into one seamless system whereas now it's basically just attacking with overwhelming power.

Seems like you are asking for simpler gameplay/boss fights instead of what you mean by using Chess as reference.

Though we already got that, shift, ctrl, space, 1,2,3,4 wasd, and

11 hours ago, uAir said:

but at Arbitration you are dying from random things sometimes

because incoming attacks are not announced, you want more pressing buttons?
Keep dodging/bullet jumping/gliding, keeps you busy (hopefully entertained), and alive.

Those video samples are a bad reference, is like standing in traffic, and even though you are facing the incoming traffic, you still need to be told when to get out of the road.

I don't mind fellow Tenno suggesting/discussing changes, but always try understanding the game first (this is not an overwhelmingly hardcore game - grind is real though), and check what content had been removed that tried to cater to the hardcore playerbase (rip Trials).

This game has gone through a lot of changes on its lifetime, so it is hard to grasp what Developers are aiming for.

Best advice, ignore me, keep throwing suggestion, the game can handle change.

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Hey,

Thanks for all the replies to this thread, I'm glad to have started a discussion & found a way for people to share
There is great value to community here, in fact, in more ways than one, players are D.E's greatest asset,
I hope they will make more use of them (thread incoming)... Here's a massive idea dump.

The TL;DR of this reply is: I love this game, let's make it even better, together

I read all the comments, and I want to respond to a few, so in no particular order:

@rune_me your comment was really clear and to the point, it reminded me that
Actually, Artificial Intelligence always has to be scaled down, in order to not be near impossible for players, thus,
the issue is not producing challenge itself, but balance.

@(PS4)RenovaKunumaru You gave a really good suggestion on "graded immortality":
 adding a real strong defence & weak spot instead of "grey" immortality. I don't think this is represented
in the game enough (except for head shots),  especially with "bosses", which seems "gimmicky".

Personally, until I thoroughly understood all the boss mechanics, I simply found it frustrating:
Shooting and having no effect what-so-ever, and not knowing when the enemy would become vulnerable & what to do to trigger it.
I found many mechanics un-intuitive. Exploiting weak spots and avoiding the tough frontal defence is part of what being a ninja is all about,
so I feel like that's a great step in the right direction.  I envision teams of enemies co-operating and even, adapting to our playstyle/ pre-empting combos.

let's say past level 100, specialists hunting operators in void mode. Challenge keeps the fun going; balanced challenge.
Too easy = Too boring, while too hard = game breaking, sudden 1 shots out of no-where ruin it, never feeling threatened also.
Balance is the key, so how can we balance it better? Let's really think, instead of being polarised into fans & haters, let's be creative.

An idea which is probably not going to be that popular, but in some way is already implemented,
always has to be, and is much more rigorous in other games: Standardisation.

Personally I think it's ridiculous that you can take 4 Trinities in a squad, and all bless together at the same time, and take virtually no damage at all, because the 75% stacking damage reduction buff applies 4 times, so you have... I don't even know how to calculate the reduction, 75% of 75% of 75% of 75% of original dmg. 

While it can be fun and overpowered initially, after a while it just removes the challenge and makes the game feel a little "let down". 

Standardisation here could give a somewhat level playing field, reffering back to the chess analogy. Personally I think 75% reduced damage, on top of the frame's armor, arcanes, blocking, should be the maximum which can be given through skills, the 90% from Gara, Mesa and so on, seem a little over the top, and remove the need for team-play. What do you think @(PS4)RenovaKunumaru


@NinthAria thanks for your valuable comment, it made me reflect on mastery & learning:
I agree in part, and disagree in part with your view, let's use Gym & Weight-lifting as a parallel so you can see why:
When you lift the same weights over a period of time, and eat well enough for your muscles to grow, those weights become easy/ non-challenging,
But you can always increase the amount of weight, and have a new challenge, so your muscles are stimulated enough to grow. 
If you apply this analogy to the military, as you go up the ranks, the "weights" increase.
In warfare the weight of your responsibility increases with the challenges you face;
a general is responsible for many men under his rank, and not just the men, but the results of their actions.

In warframe's case, this is going up the level of enemies you face, the only issue is that, game-play mechanic wise, on the few frames that scale infinitely, like ash with Lethal Teleport + Covert Lethality + 2 Arcane Trickery rank 10's, you literally just press 2 or 3 buttons, and can do level 9999 missions, as long as your patience lasts, or macros. You can literally "Cheese" the game and get bored, and even quit (i did) because there's only a handful of frames that can go up higher than a few hundreds levels in survival, and the one's you can do this with are so ridiculously easy, it just gets boring.

This is why I think certain skills, mods, and interactions need to be re-evaluated. An auto-aiming, low energy cost, spammable, instant kill ability, which makes you immortal whilst attacking, is just "too good to be true" or rather, too good to be fun. The balance of Risk and Reward is nearly always what makes gaming fun.
The other elements are just "bells and whistles" stacked on top of the players interaction with the core game mechanics, dynamics and systems.

There needs to be a balance of these elements of game play:
Mod power, Frame Power, Weapon Power (Already done in large part with stat overhaul), and Player Skill (Aiming / Moving right) 

Anyway, getting back to the military analogy:
How much should a "Golden Dragon" (my current rank) be responsible for?  
Let's be visionary & see the possibilities of how Warframe could develop over time.

For instance I envision that this would be an amazing addition the game which would help improve the community,
Adding a deeper rewards system than the current "guide of the lotus", for veterans & higher ranking players, helping newer players,
In the game Anarchy Online, which was my first M.M.M.O.R.P.G, there was a system called "Advisors of Rubi-Ka", they were players who had proven themselves
And they interacted with the developers, new players, and the community. Often their feed-back lead to the game being changed in positive ways. 

Then there was also the "professionals system" which is a little similar to warframe partners, except it was dedicated to the "classes" which are like frames, 
You had people who were the best at their class, representing that class, by community decision, voicing the concerns of the playerbase, and getting them addressed, so good balance changes could be made to the class & the game stay fun & balanced. I think this could be really well integrated & be a good addition.

We know that the developers listen and often integrate features the players ask for... so let's ask some hard questions:
how could the story of Warframe encourage people to be the best they can be, and take more responsibility for their lives,
As well as really get emotionally engaged with defending the world we live in? How can gaming be about more than just gaming?
Currently for instance, the baylor fomorian and razorback invasions, are a good step in "rallying" the community together, but, the system is not finished.

Like so many systems in warframe, there is a ton of ambition to do something great, and the potential is there, but, being fleshed out is missing. 

I hope, after the release of Fortuna & Rail-Jack & The New War, they focus on going back to basics, not just melee 3.0, but story 2.0; a living universe.

Chess was often about more than chess: Real Kings, Queens & military leaders would play against one another, to test each other's skill & negotiate.
This culture of leaders playing chess against one another, ambassadors, nobility, averted actual, real life wars from breaking out! 
How cool would it be if, instead of Nations going to war, they simply played against one another (or together) online?


I feel like this an element which, if they integrate correctly into the core game, will keep people satisfied, enthusiastic, and engaged.
Right now in warframe, you "lift the same weight" of grinding various pieces of gear, but, except for destroyed relays, often your actions feel meaningless
In a self-replicating "Grey-Goo" Type post-apocalyptic world, of infinitely Re-spawning enemies, seemingly made for not much more than to be Tenno Victims.
You "do the same chess moves" and the reason you are playing is often just "because it's cool". Let's help make this game about more than that. 
We can help show the world, that a free to play game, relying on the free-will patronage of its player base, has the most creative community.

@TarinUnit9
Interesting paradox you pointed out, did you know that, at least in mathematics,
all paradoxes can be resolved by making use of what are called "Goedel's incompleteness theorem"?
The reason is, as far as I understand, in mathematics, axioms are the "agreed upon language of meaning" but,
the second incompleteness theorem states: "
that the system cannot demonstrate its own consistency." 
So, at some point, there is a point at which every paradox resolves itself, because the consistency of axioms does not run on indefinitely; it is incomplete...

 

 

 


I feel like perhaps I need to do a better job at explaining the parallels between Chess and Warframe,
as not everyone understood the value & importance of my comparison.

Well: Let's compare a Ninja Shinobi and Samurai  to a Knight in the game of Chess:
In feudal Japan, these were highly trained warriors with codes of honour and conduct,
In chess, Knight pieces move in a unique way, that not even the Queen can move as: In an L shape move, 3 in 1 direction, and then 1 in a different direction, 
In warframe, We Tenno also move in a unique way, firstly our frames have a common movement set they all share; Bullet jump, aim glide, wall latch
If you combine a bullet jump, double jump with a sideways roll, you literally move in an L shape, like a Knight piece, 
Then our operators & their moves; Void dash also allows you to move in a very special way too & focus abilities also.
A big part of the joy of playing warframe undeniably (for me) comes from moving.
While the action-packed pace of the game often provides for fun, 
In order to offer a deeper experience to players, I really feel that
Certain movement  combinations which require skill should

be rewarded more: block well? rewarded with an opportunity...
pull of that crazy complex melee combo? very dead enemy
combine your different operator focus school moves? 
Boom, Squad suddenly has a chance again.

I think that's the future of challenging, fun, p-v-e endgame: Team-work. 

Enduring and battling together, needing each other to achieve what we cannot alone.
Having capped approximately 200 Eidolons in groups, I really appreciate the new boss design they have, 
I have high hopes for the raids which will appear in the not so distant future, Eidolons can sort of be seen as a mini raid, 
I think that's what their plan was, as they moved arcanes from raids to eidolons, in essence, promoting 4 player teams over 8 player teams.

Anyway, let's close this ginormous comment down with some final remarks:

A Ninja (Shinobi) is "one who endures": The kanji (symbol) for shinobi is 忍び, and for ninja it's 忍者.
The character 忍 (pronounced ren in it's Chinese form) means "to endure". Thus, a shinobi is literally one who endures:
it's in the very characters that form the word shinobi. 

Is that not also what a Tenno is? One who has, does, and will endure the Void, Grineer, Kuva, Corpus, Infested, Corrupted, and triumph?

While we may be fighting in a completely different time in Warframe, compared to Feudal Japan, I feel like Tenno have their roots in ninja culture,
And that the comparison also stands here: Tenno are the ones who endure. All the others who entered the void became corrupted by its influence.
Only we were able to make the choice, as our story progressed, whether to resist the darkness, balance it, or fully embrace it. 

One of my favourite paraphrased sayings is by Leonardo Da Vinci: "Genius is the ability to endure confusion until clarity comes"
(more on that, here:https://www.slideshare.net/elsavonlicy/how-to-think-like-leonardo-da-vinci-38768792 )

Let's endure and help make Warframe the best game it can be! Remember your opinion, when based on endurance,
attention-to-detail, and truth, matters
, and can make a big difference in the world (& universe of war frame), 
I see massive potential in Warframe, its community & the future, more on that in future threads.

All the best to all of you, thanks for reading & contributing :) 

P.s What is a Komi table @(PS4)robotwars7 ? Google didn't show any enlightening results.

 

Edited by helioth137
clarifying & formatting
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On 2018-10-20 at 1:18 AM, helioth137 said:

Very simply put, Chess is a true measure of skill and mental abilities

actually that belongs to Go, the japanese Chess... which is a much simpler game than Chess, but a lot harder to master than Chess due to how many possible board state...

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On 2018-10-19 at 7:18 PM, helioth137 said:

Very simply put, Chess is a true measure of skill and mental abilities

There are 6 (pawn, castle, knight, bishop, queen, king) different types of pieces,

all with their distinct movement patterns, but only 64 squares, the playing field is level.

What can war-frame learn from this? What do you think it can? First up: Our enemies are never equal

Personally, I see the lack of their ability to counter what we do, as well as play as a team as a big issue

also, the rare satisfaction from "Countering" what they do, makes the game worth playing, to me:

there is a lack necessity to think ahead, implement this, and the quality of the game goes up

One of the biggest problems I see is that a lot of frames feel like they can do everything,

sure, there are vague categories like stealth, healer, buffer, tank, damage dealer, hybrid 

But once you reach certain gear milestones, everything just melts infront of you, with little to no challenge.

I think that's one of the things warframe players both seriously miss, and also enjoy.

Challenge, Tenn o, ultimately makes us who we are.

A Crisis of any kind, reveals our character.

Gaining ever higher levels of mastery

Should make us ready to face 

hard and harder challenges


not softer and softer because they are easier in relative terms

Do you agree/ disagree/ have anything to add?

Take off mods and try doing sorties like that 😄 theres your challange of preparation and team building. Have fun. 😄

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On 2018-10-21 at 10:44 PM, butka1998 said:

Take off mods and try doing sorties like that 😄 theres your challange of preparation and team building. Have fun. 😄

I Preffer playing with my left hand, good co-ordination training :) 

also there's no hassle like putting mods back on when done 😉


Perhaps some day I will reach such a level of mastery with my left hand that I'll have to start playing with my feet?

Training for foot-keyboard olympics 2030 😉

funny-flexible-typing.jpg

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Liu+Wei+.jpg

Edited by helioth137
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