Thanks For Watching Devstream #118!

[HugintheCrow]

25 minutes ago, jfhsanseiIII said:

 

Sure thing hun.  You do you boo. I see zero merit to discussing anything further with you.  You can’t even manage civil discourse.  It’s like telling a screaming baby to stop crying. 😂 

 

25 minutes ago, myuushii said:

The hubris

Of course I'm angry.

Warframe is one of my favourite games and I want it to be better. But complacent yes-men like you that give standing ovations to every terrible decision are what makes this game get worse.

Get this, you are actively ruining warframe by letting DE get away with ignoring feedback (sometimes that feedback is conveyed in an angry way, but that doesn't mean it's not valid, DE is a company, they need to have a thick skin and deal with it).

[TARINunit9]

4 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

I have yet to encounter a compelling reason as to why it shouldn't simply be applied as an optional innate Warframe property.

It may not be compelling, but I can give you the game designer's reason:

The devs feel it's too powerful and too convenient for it to be free

It really does boil down to it being that simple. "Not all QoL is going to be free, you gotta earn this one." Allowing all sentinels to use it, and now allowing Kavats and Kubrows to use it is an admission of "OK we agree it shouldn't be restricted to one specific companion, but you still gotta put in the work to have a companion to have it." You put the effort into keeping your companion alive, you get Vacuum as a reward. That is the reason, call it uncompelling if you want

People like you give off the air of demanding "if an enemy drops loot AT ALL, anywhere on the map, it should IMMEDIATELY teleport straight to my inventory!" (Not to put words in your mouth, that's just what you sound like after the fifty-seventh thread about it). To be clear, while I side with the devs in disagreeing with that attitude, I would also like to see DE create some sort of test build that gives vacuum infinite range, just to actually check

In addition to that, I also have a proposal for Vacuum that, as you wish for, gives Vacuum infinite range for no mod space, but removes its ability to pick up anything that affects current-mission gameplay. Energy, health, reactant, that stuff. This grants it QoL for farming and crafting, but removes its tiny amount of actual power

[Izanagi009]

5 minutes ago, AlchemistCrow said:

Hello DE, I hope you're reading this, because I have a few things I'd like to bring up about Garuda and what we've seen today:

 

Her passive...It's interesting. I can see a bit of micromanaging here, but it's a risk reward kinda thing and I'm wondering if there will be enough reward to warrant such a risk with her health. I'm not sure if this will be revised or not, but I don't want to see people just shredding their health to zero just to maximize damage output, as this can potential upset teammates when this is misused.

Her 1 is probably the ability I want revised the most looking at it now. The shield and the initial massacring of a unit I'm okay with...but I'm wondering that since this is reliant on killing or attacking an enemy if it will just be dead weight against bosses and such. The shield....needs some looks improved in my opinion, maybe not so much a shield as a damage reduction aura maybe? I'd feel that'd be better for her case. The Orb though, holy crap I hate the look of that...she uses those sick metal claws...to throw it...DE, come on, if you're going to give her those claws, have her use that blood and stab out with them to launch a lance of blood that explodes, that would look so much better and still fit with her theme. Otherwise, the scaling of the damage from the damage absorbed is great, though the casting of all this is a tad clunky. In my opinion, the 1 when pressed should just work as in the initial cast, shredding or dealing damage to an enemy to gain the shield/damage resistance, and just tapping it again would allow for more charges and refreshing of the shield. Then, you can hold down one to "focus" the blood and unleash it. This would allow a build up of a nuke for higher priority targets such as bombards and such and not require you to waste it on trash mobs as well as removing some of the clunkyness of the ability

Her 2, honestly I have no complaints, it looks sick, its devilish and badass in concept and function, I'm gonna love it. The only thing I saw that may require looking at is making sure the talon impaling the enemy matches the coloration of the talons, but that's minor and not really a complain, since you guys are good about getting those things matched up anyways.

Her 3 is okay in my opinion, but I feel that just trading life for energy is a bit wasteful. I mean, we already have rage for that...how about you inflict bleed on yourself and gain buffs from it so you don't immediately shred half your health for it? It would also prevent what I stated previously and also prevent someone from instantly downing themselves if they time the ability badly or don't see someone attacking them from behind, which is often something that can happen.

Her 4...I hate to say this about something you guys are creating but I honestly hate this ability. It's like a revenant ult but just themed for her and in close range. And the animation of Garuda during this? It doesn't fit her. It's not elegant, and just a swarm of blades fits Ash more than it does Garuda. I don't know what this should be replaced this with, but make it more unique and not just a damaging channel. We already have that with Revenant, as I said previously, and it would be a waste to have two warframes in a row with a very similar ultimate.

That said, I love the looks of her, I really look forward to playing her, and I hope that my suggestions have at the very least given you all some good ideas with witch to inspire or help with this amazing looking frame. Thanks again for all the hard work you guys put in, and best of luck with all the work going into Fortuna.

To go one by one since there's a lot here

Passive: I feel the passive should have the damage increase be around 350% or so. This would make the reward for going low health worth it. I also would think slight logarithmic growth so that you hit like 200% at half health, 300% at 25% health, and 350% at near death. This way, people have a good reward for going all the way but still get benefit at half and 25%. 

1st: I do think a damage resist aura would work but i have an idea for the second cast. Make her slash the air, releasing blood shockwaves. There is a character in blazblue that might be used as visual reference though i will admit 2d to 3d transition isn't easy. 

Other than that, the only suggestion i have would be have blood flowing from Garuda to the orb as you get hit in streams to make the visuals more clear

2nd: I have no issues, though I will admit i can see some people talking about why it's stationary

3rd: I do think that it should be more like Inaros where you hold and drain health rather than just have chucks removed. That way, people have more control over their health and energy regen. Some secondary buffs might be interesting, like how Harrow can drain his energy to get energy regen, maybe expend health to get health regen in an aura 

4th: This one is one that I think needs revision. As i stated, it doesn't mechanically fit with the rest of the kit and it doesn't synergize either with any of the skills.

Side notes: I do think Garuda's claws should be made a separate melee weapon for other frames, make them claws with longer range than most claws but slower range. Would be cool 

[Suska]

when Garuda was first mentioned i got the impression we were getting something like valkyr, fast paced and direct and then we saw the last several frames, and i said, well Garuda is coming. yknow, i imagined her elbow deep in blood... idk, i doubt im alone in being disappointed in what we saw today. wf can do with some drama, i've always said so, the classic example is the gammacor, even when it was totally meta it still felt like shining a lazer pointer, just bvvvvvvvv, wheres the battery overheating, sparks flying, screen shaking, but whatever, i grab a melee weapon and fly through a map and the slaughter is real... valkyr for instance, she has style, she actually screams, and her abilities (well warcry) actually synergize with her weapons. nothing in this Garuda kit does anything like that, doesn't synergize with squad, short range at best, not dramatic, she doesn't even look like it hurts to spill her blood (frames have blood?) she's not panting, sneezing blood out, she does a little ballet twirl... with that look, with that theme, you can do better.

[myuushii]

22 minutes ago, HugintheCrow said:

 

Of course I'm angry.

Warframe is one of my favourite games and I want it to be better. But complacent yes-men like you that give standing ovations to every terrible decision are what makes this game get worse.

Get this, you are actively ruining warframe by letting DE get away with ignoring feedback (sometimes that feedback is conveyed in an angry way, but that doesn't mean it's not valid, DE is a company, they need to have a thick skin and deal with it).

Yes me. Me specifically am ruining Warframe because I don't agree that Garuda needs bleed or toxin resistance. A Warframe that is work in progress and you know basically nothing specific about. 

Every single one of your replies was a strawman yet I am ruining Warframe because I disagreed with some guy about one miniscule, not even yet implemented, aspect of the game. And maybe you didn't notice in your babyrage but my very first post in this thread was criticizing aspects of Garuda that I saw in the stream.

You can pretend you had the high ground all along and argue with emotions but let's not forget you started arguing by calling me "names" because I didn't agree with a suggestion of one guy not related to you at all prior to this topic.

Edited October 20, 2018 by myuushii

[jfhsanseiIII]

15 minutes ago, HugintheCrow said:

yes-men like you that give standing ovations to every terrible decision are what makes this game get worse.

Get this, you are actively ruining warframe by letting DE get away with ignoring feedback (sometimes that feedback is conveyed in an angry way, but that doesn't mean it's not valid, DE is a company, they need to have a thick skin and deal with it).

Oh now you’re just making stuff up.  You’re not doing yourself any favor by lying.  If you can’t argue against someone with the truth then why bother?

[jfhsanseiIII]

2 minutes ago, myuushii said:

Yes me. Me specifically am ruining Warframe because I don't agree that Garuda needs bleed or toxin resistance. A Warframe that is work in progress and you know basically nothing specific about. 

Every single one of your replies was a strawman yet I am ruining Warframe because I disagreed with some guy about one miniscule, not even yet implemented, aspect of the game. And maybe you didn't notice in your babyrage but my very first post in this thread was criticizing aspects of Garuda that I saw in the stream.

As was mine actually.  

[DiabolusUrsus]

18 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

It may not be compelling, but I can give you the game designer's reason:

The devs feel it's too powerful and too convenient for it to be free

Except I was responding to someone criticizing the devs for changing their decision, so don't try to paint this as me forcing my opinion on the devs.

18 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

It really does boil down to it being that simple. "Not all QoL is going to be free, you gotta earn this one." Allowing all sentinels to use it, and now allowing Kavats and Kubrows to use it is an admission of "OK we agree it shouldn't be restricted to one specific companion, but you still gotta put in the work to have a companion to have it." You put the effort into keeping your companion alive, you get Vacuum as a reward. That is the reason, call it uncompelling if you want

I don't understand why you think I am unaware of this line of reasoning.

18 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

People like you give off the air of demanding

I'm not demanding anything. I'm disagreeing with the reasoning that is being used for what I see as a questionable and misguided decision.

It's fine for QoL to have a cost associated for it, but we should seriously examine why that cost exists. If you leave it at "just because" you end up with a lot of arbitrary restrictions that don't actually improve the game. This same logic was applied to Stamina up until it was removed. At one point even jumping was restricted. Just because DE says "we are doing this because XYZ reasons" doesn't mean that they are right to do so.

I would counter your companion rebuttal with "there is already plenty of incentive to keep your companion alive with or without Vacuum." I don't try to keep my Sentinel alive because of potentially losing Vacuum. I try to keep my Sentinel alive because losing its defensive and healing bonuses noticeably damages my survivability. If Vacuum would function even after Sentinel death, I wouldn't suddenly be less concerned with protecting it.

18 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

"if an enemy drops loot AT ALL, anywhere on the map, it should IMMEDIATELY teleport straight to my inventory!" (Not to put words in your mouth, that's just what you sound like after the fifty-seventh thread about it).

... And why shouldn't it? You're implying that is an unreasonable suggestion, but what is the actual value of requiring players to pick up loot drops (ammo/health/energy notwithstanding, because those actually affect combat). Having physical loot that players need to pick up isn't nonsensical, but what is the actual benefit? If mods and resources were delivered straight to inventory:

• The game would run a bit better. Fewer objects spawning and lying around the battlefield would require less processing.
• Loot-related bugs would be much less common. DE wouldn't need to spend multiple hotfixes trying to patch Eidolon loot getting dumped in lakes, etc.
• The game would be overall less visually cluttered, which I see as a plus.

Sure, there's the issue of leeching, but there are already anti-AFK measures in place to disable collection of rewards.

18 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

To be clear, while I side with the devs in disagreeing with that attitude, I would also like to see DE create some sort of test build that gives vacuum infinite range, just to actually check

Check what? The results of that test should be exceedingly obvious and self-evident. Overall player power wouldn't change much. Game performance might crash and burn, though.

18 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

In addition to that, I also have a proposal for Vacuum that, as you wish for, gives Vacuum infinite range for no mod space, but removes its ability to pick up anything that affects current-mission gameplay. Energy, health, reactant, that stuff. This grants it QoL for farming and crafting, but removes its tiny amount of actual power

What actual power?

Seriously, name 1 build where vacuum makes or breaks it. I am running a Health Conversion Equilibrium Nekros 90% of the time (read: needs to pick up lots of orbs) and when my Sentinel dies my biggest problem is the loss of Guardian + Ammo Case. For people who have it, Medi-Ray is probably an even bigger deal. Losing Vacuum is an inconvenience. Losing it makes the game less fun, not harder.

Energy is easily trivialized with or without Vacuum.

Health is easily trivialized with or without Vacuum.

Ammo is easily trivialized with or without Vacuum.

None of those methods for trivializing difficulty have anything to do with whether or not your companion is dead.

[Mach25]

1 hour ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Except I was responding to someone criticizing the devs for changing their decision, so don't try to paint this as me forcing my opinion on the devs.

I don't understand why you think I am unaware of this line of reasoning.

I'm not demanding anything. I'm disagreeing with the reasoning that is being used for what I see as a questionable and misguided decision.

It's fine for QoL to have a cost associated for it, but we should seriously examine why that cost exists. If you leave it at "just because" you end up with a lot of arbitrary restrictions that don't actually improve the game. This same logic was applied to Stamina up until it was removed. At one point even jumping was restricted. Just because DE says "we are doing this because XYZ reasons" doesn't mean that they are right to do so.

I would counter your companion rebuttal with "there is already plenty of incentive to keep your companion alive with or without Vacuum." I don't try to keep my Sentinel alive because of potentially losing Vacuum. I try to keep my Sentinel alive because losing its defensive and healing bonuses noticeably damages my survivability. If Vacuum would function even after Sentinel death, I wouldn't suddenly be less concerned with protecting it.

... And why shouldn't it? You're implying that is an unreasonable suggestion, but what is the actual value of requiring players to pick up loot drops (ammo/health/energy notwithstanding, because those actually affect combat). Having physical loot that players need to pick up isn't nonsensical, but what is the actual benefit? If mods and resources were delivered straight to inventory:

• The game would run a bit better. Fewer objects spawning and lying around the battlefield would require less processing.
• Loot-related bugs would be much less common. DE wouldn't need to spend multiple hotfixes trying to patch Eidolon loot getting dumped in lakes, etc.
• The game would be overall less visually cluttered, which I see as a plus.

Sure, there's the issue of leeching, but there are already anti-AFK measures in place to disable collection of rewards.

Check what? The results of that test should be exceedingly obvious and self-evident. Overall player power wouldn't change much. Game performance might crash and burn, though.

What actual power?

Seriously, name 1 build where vacuum makes or breaks it. I am running a Health Conversion Equilibrium Nekros 90% of the time (read: needs to pick up lots of orbs) and when my Sentinel dies my biggest problem is the loss of Guardian + Ammo Case. For people who have it, Medi-Ray is probably an even bigger deal. Losing Vacuum is an inconvenience. Losing it makes the game less fun, not harder.

Energy is easily trivialized with or without Vacuum.

Health is easily trivialized with or without Vacuum.

Ammo is easily trivialized with or without Vacuum.

None of those methods for trivializing difficulty have anything to do with whether or not your companion is dead.

Yep, indeed, like I said before, there are no arguments against having a reasonably-sized innate vacuum, just opinions that have no factual basis and are far too narrow in their formulation, thus they are DOA (Dead On Arrival).

Edited October 20, 2018 by Mach25

[TARINunit9]

1 hour ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

I'm not demanding anything

And yet I read the entire rest of your post, it's just the words "I know I'm right, no debating it" over and over again

 

9 minutes ago, Mach25 said:

Yep, indeed, like I said before, there are no arguments against having a reasonably-sized innate vacuum, just opinions that have no factual basis and are far too narrow in their formulation, thus they are DOA (Dead On Arrival).

Ever heard the expression "it takes one to no one"?

Edited October 20, 2018 by TARINunit9

[mrrobotto67]

Thanks for the stream and the info 😄

Now, i will say that her 1 and 4 are something i would think it could be changed.

• Her 1 seems to be overly complicated, i think the ability can be more simple with something like a simple swipe that can combo with your melee weapon, it could ad a guaranteed slash proc for 5 seconds to the next attack you do with your melee weapon. (and for gimmick porpuses, if the enemie dies with the slash proc it will get mutilated).
• As for her 4, it looks like dance macabre but with blades instead of lasers. What if you have her claws as exalted weapons and on top of that, her other 3 abilites get increased effects. (for example, in my idea for her 1, instead of 5 seconds it could be 10 seconds for the next attack to proc slash).

Everything else is just wonderfull about her (abilities 2, 3 and passive seems to have great sinergy together). 

Hopefully my ideas (and the ones of every other player that has been written here or on other post) will be taken into account.

 

[Helmed]

4 hours ago, Suska said:

when Garuda was first mentioned i got the impression we were getting something like valkyr, fast paced and direct and then we saw the last several frames, and i said, well Garuda is coming. yknow, i imagined her elbow deep in blood... idk, i doubt im alone in being disappointed in what we saw today. wf can do with some drama, i've always said so, the classic example is the gammacor, even when it was totally meta it still felt like shining a lazer pointer, just bvvvvvvvv, wheres the battery overheating, sparks flying, screen shaking, but whatever, i grab a melee weapon and fly through a map and the slaughter is real... valkyr for instance, she has style, she actually screams, and her abilities (well warcry) actually synergize with her weapons. nothing in this Garuda kit does anything like that, doesn't synergize with squad, short range at best, not dramatic, she doesn't even look like it hurts to spill her blood (frames have blood?) she's not panting, sneezing blood out, she does a little ballet twirl... with that look, with that theme, you can do better.

Definitely feel the same here. She needs one or two of her abilities changed to be more synergized with her blood/gore asthetic. her ultimate looks very basic and generic... 

[Suska]

yeah... isn't Garuda the name of a giant bird? what if she had some energy wings or something? instead of a globe of knives she could swoop across the room and enemies in the room would do an anime death... heck, what if her powers extended range and damage of melee weapons with spectral energy feathers...

[-DG-ShadowPrime]

4 hours ago, mrrobotto67 said:

Her 1 seems to be overly complicated, i think the ability can be more simple with something like a simple swipe that can combo with your melee weapon, it could ad a guaranteed slash proc for 5 seconds to the next attack you do with your melee weapon. (and for gimmick porpuses, if the enemie dies with the slash proc it will get mutilated).

*Overly Complicated* Press 1 mutilate an enemy gain a shield and orb. Press 1 again to throw said orb to damage enemies or hold down to charge said orb. Looks pretty simple to me.

[mrrobotto67]

Justo ahora, ShadowExodus dijo:

*Overly Complicated* Press 1 mutilate an enemy gain a shield and orb. Press 1 again to throw said orb to damage enemies or hold down to charge said orb. Looks pretty simple to me.

What i mean by overly complicated is one ability that does completely different things at the time you press the key, and that is her 1st ability. Is like over cooking a plate and then add a bunch of stuff. 

[Suska]

yeah it does 3 different things, i have no idea why the 1 is stacked like that, it's more like juggling than being savage

[Suska]

what if her 1 was like a nitro overcharging her melee, every time you push it you start bleeding more and get bigger buffs and purging health randomly, running the risk of dieing and continually using energy, you can turn it off by holding 1 and if you blow all your energy you collapse a moment panting and bleeding. you could mitigate the damage with grace, at the first level health orbs and grace would keep you topped off. there shouldn't be any real limit to how far you could overcharge it, but at higher degrees you'd basically wind up needing a trin around spamming bless. anyway, this is what im talking about, synergy with weapons, risk taking, savage.

[Suska]

also yeah, GIANT CLAWS *not an exalted weapon.... wait, wat?

[(PSN)solartorch81]

Garuda 4 is underwhelming and too similar to other ability. It could be a single target super powerful move then take down bosses instead of another AOE.

[LupisV0lk]

8 hours ago, HugintheCrow said:

See you again when we get flooded by "Garuda is trash" whining threads.

Well get them no MATTER WHAT state she comes in.

[Edzhang]

What a great stream.. thx for not doing too much k-drive in this and focus on the other stuff, which are great.. titania’s buff is great, nyx’s rework is great too (really excited to see her 2 in action), but what interest me the most is garuda..

After saw brozime’s video on youtube, i have the same concern about her 1.. is there any requirement for her 1? Do we need to kill the enemy to get shield and orb? And her 4 is kinda like revenant’s 4, which i dont know why DE made another press 4 to win ability.. the rest, i like her power and playstyle, maybe she will be one of my most played frame someday..

After all, a wonderful stream, i like everything that you guys have shown, cant wait for fortuna..

Edited October 20, 2018 by Edzhang

[LupisV0lk]

8 hours ago, HugintheCrow said:

 

Of course I'm angry.

Warframe is one of my favourite games and I want it to be better. But complacent yes-men like you that give standing ovations to every terrible decision are what makes this game get worse.

Get this, you are actively ruining warframe by letting DE get away with ignoring feedback (sometimes that feedback is conveyed in an angry way, but that doesn't mean it's not valid, DE is a company, they need to have a thick skin and deal with it).

You know what, It wasn't yes men who stopped a major IPS balance pass. It was the status quo warriors and their manchildren ilk that stomped their little feet in order to protect their precious slash status.

This community has shown time and time again that there are times when DE needs to grow a spine and tell the community where it can shove it's so called feedback.

It ain't the yes men that are doing harm to the game, it's the status quo warriors who have an aversion to change.

Edited October 20, 2018 by LupisV0lk

[dbugz]

Happily watching the stream earlier when a sudden feeling of concern and dread crept in after seeing the flying nullifiers with what looks like nullifier drones.

Edited October 20, 2018 by dbugz

[DiabolusUrsus]

11 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

And yet I read the entire rest of your post, it's just the words "I know I'm right, no debating it" over and over again

Making points to support my perspective is called making an argument. I'm sorry if that offends your sensibilities, but that's part of feedback.

11 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

Ever heard the expression "it takes one to no one"?

Ever heard of the word "know?"

[MirageKnight]

12 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

And yet I read the entire rest of your post, it's just the words "I know I'm right, no debating it" over and over again

I find your lack of appreciation for critical thinking and proper debating disturbing.

12 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

Ever heard the expression "it takes one to no one"?

No, but I have heard of the expression "Takes one to know one"...a statement that is more often than not completely incorrect because it's little more than a knee-jerk assumption.

50 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Making points to support my perspective is called making a valid argument.

Fixed that for you