Jump to content

Titania's Tribute: It needs (a lot) more


DrBorris
 Share

Recommended Posts

Referencing Devstream:

Quote

• Tribute now only requires 1 target to maximize each buff.
• Lantern can be cast up to 4 times at once. Lanterned enemies can be detonated when the cast button is held down.
• Razorwing is getting a loot vacuum, similar to Archwing!

(not really here to talk about the other changes, they seem fine)

 

Okay, but it still kinda sucks, and also has little flavor.

Tribute's current effects:

  • Dust: 50% Reduced enemy accuracy in a 30 meter range with a 120 second duration.
  • Thorns: Reflects 25% of damage back to enemies up to 40 meters away with a 120 second duration.
  • Entangle: Slows enemies by 25% in a 10 meter (lol) range for 120 seconds.
  • Full Moon: Increase damage of companions by 75%  for allies within 30 meters for 90(?) seconds.

"Those base values are not that bad" you say. "Not amazing, but not that bad" you follow up.

Well, here's the thing, all of those above stats are completely unaffected by mods. So those are the values no matter what your customization of Titania is. That sucks, not only in the respect that the values suck, but also that it takes out the entire point of modding.

 

Proposal:

  • Make Tribute's buffs affected by mods first of all, mods are there for a reason.
  • Only need one enemy to get max buff (as was proposed)
  • Reduce the base duration 40 seconds (moddable) for all buffs.
  • Have the auras exist independently for all allies (an individual aura for each ally) within affinity range of Titania.
    • To clarify, this would have it so in addition to Titania having an aura of the buffs, allies will have their own. So that Excalibur that is 20 meters away from Titania will have their own Dust, Thorn, etcetera aura around them.
  • Allow for Auras to stack with diminishing returns. So if an enemy is within the Dust aura of two allies, that enemy will be slowed more than if they were only in range of one Thorn aura.
    • This will give a tangible bonus for the group sticking together.
  • Set all ranges to a consistent (and moddable) 20 meters.
  • Add a new buff for Eximus enemies -insert creative name here-: Increase status chance by 40%

 

Edited by DrBorris
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree. The developers' fear of balancing around mods seems to be holding back her potential in Tribute. Dust seems cool and would work somewhat like a crowd control ability for ranged units. Damage reflection practically never works so Thorns should be something else. Entangle is like a quarter of what Nova's Molecular Prime does. Full Moon seems okay, but companions are weak and the ability doesn't buff player warframes or operators so it does't have a decent niche either.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In all honesty I've rarely even used tribute....   Why, because lets be honest when you're in razorwing, which is pretty much all the time with titania, the buffs don't really do anything to help you because razorwing already has damage reduced due to the drones, which can also slow them down a a bit, and we have no companion active so full moon is pointless.

Considering the changes aren't going to change the actual buffs themselves I'm not sure it's going to make any real difference.  

Edited by LSG501
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

In all honesty I've rarely even used tribute....   Why, because lets be honest when you're in razorwing, which is pretty much all the time with titania, the buffs don't really do anything to help you because razorwing already has damage reduced due to the drones, which can also slow them down a a bit, and we have no companion active so full moon is pointless.

Considering the changes aren't going to change the actual buffs themselves I'm not sure it's going to make any real difference.  

Which is why I proposed the whole "give the auras to allies in affinity range" part. It shifts Titania a bit into a more supportive role, even if she can't make use of the buffs her allies very likely will.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

You need to justify something like that beyond just because. As I see it, that is a huge range for no possible reason.

For one, it is not a "huge range" in the normal sense. Each ally within affinity range has their own (20 meter base) range aura. It is not just one giant 50m range aura. And given how many posts you have made, I would think you would know by now that brevity is a key ingredient to making a thread people will actually read. If I explained everything in detail most would just gloss over the entire thing (I have done that a only a few times).

 

However, I love it when people ask why, so here I go...

Titania currently doesn't have a role. She gets some DPS opportunities with Razorwing, but that is mostly single target DPS (the worst kind) and she does not even do that best. When I think about Titania I go way back to how she was described on a Devstream before she was released as an "unseen support". She is the little helper nobody sees but everybody is thankful to have around. So while the buff to Lantern will be nice for giving Titania more zone denial, it does not really make her supportive.

This is where I suggest the independent auras. You don't see Titania, but you definitely notice that she is there as she buffs you. As someone above said, the buffs really don't do anything for Titania while she is in Razorwing, the buffs are more-so for your allies. And when it comes to buffing allies, the competition can get fierce. We have modded 70% power strength boosts, 400% damage boosts, just making your allies straight up invulnerable, massive crit buffs, insane healing potential, the list goes on and on. The Tribute buffs, alone and even modded for like 200% power strength, are nothing ground-breaking on their own.

The real interesting part of independent auras in my opinion is the opportunity of buff stacking. Like, if you are getting a buff from Titania you are fine to do your own thing, but if you got next to your ally then your power would be greater than the sum of its parts. It is a new gameplay push that promotes people sticking together in a different way than just 'stay next to me' or 'this zone gives buff, stand there'. It would be kinda cute to have the fairy frame be all about having everyone stick together.

 

You need to justify criticism like that beyond just because. As I see it, that is a complaint for no possible reason.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would at least increase the baseline aura ranges. I get why they didn't want them to be affected by mods since it would make an already questionable ability even weaker if you had a very limited range or duration. Mods still affect the damage, cast range and debuff duration so I don't think you need to potentially nerf the buff range and duration by making them dependent on mods. Unmoddable buff range and duration makes the ability more universally useful, regardless of build (assuming the buffs were worth using). It prevents the kind of situation you run into with Trinity where negative duration butchers her link and blessing duration in order to buff EV. 

Now that we have these very large wide open areas, I think the set ranges should just be increased. I don't think even something like 60m would be too much. What's the point of my accuracy debuff aura in a huge area if things are shooting at me and my allies from twice as far away as my aura covers? Or it could be affinity range, which could encourage her to use Vazarin, especially now that they're adding loadout specific focus settings. Even entangle doesn't need that small of a radius given how small of a slow it is, though they could keep that smaller than the other auras still if they felt it was necessary. 

Full moon may now be more useful as more people will be using companions.

Thorns I think is the weakest link. Maybe add a synergy with razorflies so that if they are killed by an enemy while thorns is active they deal significant thorns damage to the target or stun it or something. 

I also am still hoping they'll add a snare to her 1. Adding a leash to her 3 may be nice, but you can still send enemies rapidly flying off into the sunset with her 1. 

I'd also add a razorfly auto respawn mechanic. Even something as simple as, if any flies are dead, respawn one every 5 seconds or something. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Eh honestly I don't think anything short of completely replacing her Tribute is ever going to get me to seriously use her 2. 

I mean I will certainly give the new changes a chance but.......

I still really think they should give Titania two completely new abilities, yeah I said two. Cause in addition to Tribute being swapped out I think she could use a new 3 as well because her 1 & 3 are so similar that they could really be folded into a single charge ability. EG tap 1 to Spellbind and hold/charge to Lantern. 

I would just really like to see a hard rework of those powers vs kinda shifting some numbers and calling it a day. 

 

Tho I am freaking stoked for the Vacuum effect in Razorwing. I think she kinda benefited from the sorta quasi "universal" vacuum that was added a ways back in that it didn't feel like I had to hug drops quite as hard to pick them up but not having to scrape the floor will be huge. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, DrBorris said:
  • Have the auras exist independently for all allies (an individual aura for each ally) within affinity range of Titania.
    • To clarify, this would have it so in addition to Titania having an aura of the buffs, allies will have their own. So that Excalibur that is 20 meters away from Titania will have their own Dust, Thorn, etcetera aura around them.

Sounds perfectly reasonable to me, and something that now that I think about it I wonder why it isn't so already. Oberon's 3 (not the same I know but in that the buff attaches to the allies once cast) comes to mind, and that is a lot more powerful than Titania's Tribute is.

 

For the longest time I insisted on making Tribute work, but in the end it just felt so underwhelming and not worth the cost, was just overall better to just stay in razorwing and blitz your way through.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think one of the fundamental issues with Tribute is that it's a grab bag of random, mostly weak buffs (with the exception of Dust), instead of a single, solid buff. Octavia has the same problem with her 3, which mostly ends up boiling down to the invisibility it provides, and the problem with both is that, despite all the power they offer, very little of that power translates to gameplay. It's good that DE's allowing us to get the full buffs immediately, but the lack of moddability to those buffs is a problem, and even if that were resolved, the end result would still be an ability that gave a ton of crap most people don't really care about, plus one good effect. Worth noting is how many of these abilities don't even synergize well with Titania: Full Moon's bonus to companions isn't really great when considering how Titania's companion disappears whenever she enters Razorwing form, and Thorns, whose damage reflection is already pitiful to begin with, directly anti-synergizes with Titania's evasion bonuses, as well as Dust's own accuracy penalty to enemies, both of which aim to prevent her from getting hit entirely. Entangle itself is not a particularly strong effect, so the end result is that Dust is the only bonus truly worth having, despite itself not being a phenomenally interesting buff.

Because of this, I'd much rather prefer it if Tribute offered a singular, much stronger and more distinct buff. Having the ability grant a solid damage and/or speed bonus could make for a much more impactful and engaging effect than its current array of mini-buffs, and could likely synergize a lot better with the rest of Titania's playstyle, especially if said bonus were also moddable. As it stands, it's difficult to balance the current ability, because it does so many things at once, and does none of them all that well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I find it silly over how Octavia, who came later, has her buffs affected by mods not to mention how much better those buffs are from Metronome in comparsion to Tribute's buffs.

This is a good list of changes OP, but another thing I would like to add on are new buffs replacing Thorns and Full Moon.

Damage reflection in this game is awful due to l how unproportional our damage is to enemies. Companions (Sentinels, Kubrows, and Kavats) are never known for their damage, but their utility they provide. Same thing applies to the Razorwings who are designed to draw aggro away from Titania, and it's rather irrelevant if Full Moon affects them.

I'm not sure about Entangle, since it only affects movement speed (think of an Artic Eximus's aura). If it acted like Nova's Molecular Prime, then it can stay. Otherwise, it could be replaced with something else.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

While the stated changes to Titania look promising I hope De is willing to expend a tad bit more effort on her kit.

What Titania's Tribute buffs currently need is to have more moddability, starting with:

- default range, corresponding to her current unmoddable and mediocre ranges for both auras and casting range, even when going negative range with mods, so that it's possible to mod for razorwing without compromising all her other powers, and possibility to expand her power ranges with mods...

- benefits from power streght that either impact area of effect, # of targets or something in addition or alternative to modding for range;

- improvements in casting speed and buff acquisition - all other frames powers just work when used, Titania needs instead to recover a floating "mark" to get her effects going

- improvements to the buffs themselves!

Dust main problem is it's fixed value and mechanic:

- RNG based defensive ability is bad in general, all other defensive abilities work 100% of the time, period;

- 50% value seems to be relative and subtracted from enemy hit chance, when enemy level rises hit chance above 100% the debuff becomes quicly irrelevant

- enemies in range get debuffed but enemies can attack you from 100m +!  << you and allies in range get a buff vs all enemies regardless of range would be much better

Thorns: damage reflection doesn't work unless it's inflicted directly to enemy HP because NPC damage is too low vs their EHP +depends from tagging heavy units

Entangle: effect is noth enough at 25% unmoddable and area affected is nearly useless at 10m unmoddable as well

Full Moon: conditionally usefull with incoming inprovements on companions, still useless to Titania herself whenever in Razorwing

! All Tribute effects don't seem to work on Titania's own razorflies -> lost chance for power interaction here

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2018-10-20 at 3:19 AM, DrBorris said:

Referencing Devstream:

(not really here to talk about the other changes, they seem fine)

 

Okay, but it still kinda sucks, and also has little flavor.

Tribute's current effects:

  • Dust: 50% Reduced enemy accuracy in a 30 meter range with a 120 second duration.
  • Thorns: Reflects 25% of damage back to enemies up to 40 meters away with a 120 second duration.
  • Entangle: Slows enemies by 25% in a 10 meter (lol) range for 120 seconds.
  • Full Moon: Increase damage of companions by 75%  for allies within 30 meters for 90(?) seconds.

"Those base values are not that bad" you say. "Not amazing, but not that bad" you follow up.

Well, here's the thing, all of those above stats are completely unaffected by mods. So those are the values no matter what your customization of Titania is. That sucks, not only in the respect that the values suck, but also that it takes out the entire point of modding.

 

Proposal:

  • Make Tribute's buffs affected by mods first of all, mods are there for a reason.
  • Only need one enemy to get max buff (as was proposed)
  • Reduce the base duration 40 seconds (moddable) for all buffs.
  • Have the auras exist independently for all allies (an individual aura for each ally) within affinity range of Titania.
    • To clarify, this would have it so in addition to Titania having an aura of the buffs, allies will have their own. So that Excalibur that is 20 meters away from Titania will have their own Dust, Thorn, etcetera aura around them.
  • Allow for Auras to stack with diminishing returns. So if an enemy is within the Dust aura of two allies, that enemy will be slowed more than if they were only in range of one Thorn aura.
    • This will give a tangible bonus for the group sticking together.
  • Set all ranges to a consistent (and moddable) 20 meters.
  • Add a new buff for Eximus enemies -insert creative name here-: Increase status chance by 40%

 

i agree with most of what u say but in all honesty tribute just sucks... it needs to either get a HUGE change or be removed and replaced with a better ability.
 

 

On 2018-10-20 at 3:32 AM, LSG501 said:

In all honesty I've rarely even used tribute....   Why, because lets be honest when you're in razorwing, which is pretty much all the time with titania, the buffs don't really do anything to help you because razorwing already has damage reduced due to the drones, which can also slow them down a a bit, and we have no companion active so full moon is pointless.

Considering the changes aren't going to change the actual buffs themselves I'm not sure it's going to make any real difference.  

very true. i don't use this ability either, i only used it back when i was ranking up titania and forma-ing her and cause razorwing was locked so i had nothing to do with the energy...
the ability is very useless and an utter waste of energy.

my proposal:
since titania's bp was originally obtained through a new loka quest it always felt like she should have had some sort of an health restoring/support ability.
option 1- make it so 1 cast extract the souls of multiple enemies in cone like AoE, instead of having to individually pick the souls they fly to u, each soul restores some health for u and the razorflies. additionally surviving enemies takes more damage.
although i think making the razorflies invulnerable would be better or at leas give let them respawn after some time if they r destroyed.
 
also anyone else is bothered that DE didn't mention anything about titania's 1? this 1 definitely needs a change too. 

just an opinion cheers :) 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've said it once, and I'll say it again, RNG buffing is not a good ability (Unless you're gonna make a magician frame have skill based buffs (like Twisted Fate's wild card in League where timing comes into the equation).

They could take the easy way and just make a cycle for each of the tribute buffs; then they'd understand that they are making a bunch of useless options by keeping tribute the way it is. If we had the choice, I'm sure it would boil down to one or two buffs, and even then...Titania's play style does not emphasize close range (Evasion is not perfect) which begs the question....how is Diwata okay the way it is, it's hardly an option outside of low level or general goofing; it serves no real PURPOSE that spraying with Dex Pixia couldn't solve in a more effective and safer manner. It seems counter productive to her play to run near enemies and cast for buffs when you need that energy to stay a killing machine (And ALIVE) she really needs a refund mechanic or make her passive 50% evasion (related to razorflies from casting abilities; Dex Pixia can still keep some % chance of evasion, functioning like arcanes) so she has a method of survival outside of Razorwing.

.

I mean this with the utmost respect. If you're going to look at a Warframe, it's probably a good idea to do lasting changes. Otherwise we'll be right back where we started. Much like Valkyr, Chroma, Khora, maybe Revenant to a lesser extent because of thralls (haven't played him in a while) where they feel better than before, but not complete. I really don't want to wait for the next rework cycle for Titania to feel complete, and after the 10th time saying something, even though people still have qualms about frames, just feels like you're going hoarse over the topic. 

 

In terms of what I would prefer from tribute specifically:

On 2018-09-05 at 8:06 AM, Synpai said:

I would prefer the "souls" tribute makes to be an extra target that allows Titania to deal a portion of damage to all targets affected by spellbind and when the spirit dies:

  • Enemies are affected by a status explosion (impact) that could change if the tribute target was affected by spellbind (blast), lantern (radiation), or both.
  • Allies get a (consistent) buff whether they are in range of the spirit or Titania; Titania gets the buff regardless of range and spawns more Razorflies (per spirit; to a cap)

 

Edited by Synpai
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Synpai said:

I've said it once, and I'll say it again, RNG buffing is not a good ability (Unless you're gonna make a magician frame have skill based buffs (like Twisted Fate's wild card in League where timing comes into the equation).

But... they're not RNG? Ranged enemies give Dust, melee enemies give Thorns, heavy units give Entangle and summons give Full Moon. Then the buff I suggested would come from Eximus. I guess it is RNG in that spawns are RNG so you have to get 'lucky' and have the right enemies spawn, but to call it RNG buffs is a stretch. And it just so happens Titania has a great tool in her kit to allow her to hunt for specific enemies (Razorwing).

 

And I think I should have made my goal for Titania a lot more clear. IMO, Titania should be a support. Are the buffs not super useful for Titania in Razorwing? Yeah, but they would be extremely useful to everyone else, especially if you have all of them going at the same time. I know Pablo frames are all the rage these days, but I would like to see less selfish Warframes not more. Having a Warframe's kit that is built around co-op play is not something that should be avoided.

 

Here is how I envision Titania's kit:

  1. Spellbind: Kinda basic quick-CC, also gives status immunity which is a pretty powerful support buff by itself.
  2. Tribute: Give allies (and yourself) buffs that stack even further when everyone is grouped up.
  3. Lantern: Area denial CC, sets up you and your allies to clear groups faster (by grouping up enemies) which is always useful especially for a support.
  4. Razorwing: Allows Titania to quickly maneuver the battlefield, allowing her to pick buffs for Tribute up, move between allies to give them status immunity, shut down troublesome groups of enemies, and of course shoot stuff sometimes too.

I don't know about you, but that seems like a complete kit to me.

 

I know, most of those things are pretty 'meh' for just Titania, but that is because I am envisioning Titania's kit as something that becomes greater when she is in a group supporting. None of this Harrow BS where he has to carry in order to support, Titania just supports. And if you want to be more specific, Titania could be an (extremely) mobile support. Especially with the addition of having four lanterns, Titania could move with the team and give her buffs in ways no other Warframe can. Unlike Oberon,  Trinity, Equinox or Harrow that have to babysit, Titania just passively buffs everyone as long as she is on the ball (and within affinity range).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

But... they're not RNG? Ranged enemies give Dust, melee enemies give Thorns, heavy units give Entangle and summons give Full Moon. Then the buff I suggested would come from Eximus. I guess it is RNG in that spawns are RNG so you have to get 'lucky' and have the right enemies spawn, but to call it RNG buffs is a stretch. And it just so happens Titania has a great tool in her kit to allow her to hunt for specific enemies (Razorwing).

It's not PURE RNG, but it is a varying extent of RNG, in that you can't pull a nidus and make a quick choice between Power Strength and Damage reduction. Not to mention, you also have to get lucky enough not to have the enemy you're hunting for annihilated by a teammate. In my example, she's still a support, but is allowed to shoot for the buff. Like even if it didn't have the spellbind or lantern synergy that alone is an improvement as the main points were:

3 hours ago, Synpai said:

It seems counter productive to her play to run near enemies and cast for buffs when you need that energy to stay a killing machine (And ALIVE)

It's fine to make her a support, but the buffs should not be USELESS without some one else, which 25% reflection (Among others) would be. Heck Chroma gets up to 8x+ damage reflection and it doesn't really achieve much (probably reduced by armor twice) outside of telling you where you got shot from. Not to mention accuracy reduction sometimes means, the bombard or napalm just hits the wall next to you and kills you lol.

 

Like why take the buffs when you can spend energy on lantern and support your team this way?

My comments were not in reference to your suggestion, but instead her current state/overall and the changes DE have shown. Just my opinion on the matter, not a direct reflection on what you suggest.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, arm4geddon-117 said:

Going Off topic, but Titania razorflies should automatically respwan after some time once they're all deal, that'd be a good QoL for her 4th

As far as I remember from titania's initial launch, many of her problems mantaining razorwing stem from the fact that the developers themselves didn't want her permanently channelling her #4... if true/correct (can't find the relevant posts anymore) that's rageworthy.

I still mantain that #1 and #3 should be folded in the same power using Ivara and Vauban approach, Lantenr is basically a variant Spellbind, no sense making it waste a power slot...

i'd rather prefer faster casting speed and the razorflies being pulled off from Razorwing while lowering the energy cost of it, it's disproportionate compared to all other finals and it's own effectiveness.

Casting speed should be retuned for all powers to be as currently during Razorwing, all power castings for Titania currently stop her dead in her tracks (literally sometimes)

Razorflies should be their own power with cast on self or cast on allies as a buff...

Edited by Ikusias
tiping errors
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...