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Please Explain Why Universal Vacuum Is Bad


Pawkeshup
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Alright devs, I just don't understand, so please help me to.

The entire playerbase has been screaming for the removal of vacuum as a mod, and just the addition of it as a feature to allow us to collect items easier. I see you guys repeatedly denying to do this. And now you add a mod to Beast pets to compensate for what I, honestly, think has been just an oversight.

So just say why Universal Vacuum would so horridly break the game. Why would it be bad to have an extra mod slot on our sentinels to add in one of the countless mods you've added to the game in that spot? Why on earth would this break the game? I don't understand. It's so crippling for a new player to need to wait until they have a sentinel in order to even have the opportunity to use Vacuum.

Is this just stubborn insistence? What is the reason you do not want to give the player base this one thing?

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You're not going to get a good answer to this, because there is no good answer. You'll find a lot of mindless apologetics, ungrounded rationale and probably a few instances of a begging the question fallacy or similar circular logic, but you wont find any good answers. Because they simply don't exist. It's as you say: A stubborn insistence.

This is the closest we'll ever get to true univac, so I'm just going to accept it before they change their mind.

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9 minutes ago, Pawkeshup said:

Is this just stubborn insistence?

Yes.

Maybe they don't want to add it because the players don't need it as much as they just want it? Maybe not all the players want vacuum. I can tell you I don't want it all the time. While its not like its going to break the game, Vacuum is a powerful tool and as such it is a mod. As such you can forego that tool in place of another one if you deem it necessary or simply just want to for whatever power or utility. I honestly don't know where I'd put it on my Kubrows and Kavats anyway (not that I'm jumping for the opportunity). Choices are choices even if you don't like the choices. What I really want to know is what the retriever kubrow is going to be changed into in light of this.

The other option is a toggle option. Which then they need to add functionality host-client code to the option so that it would actually work non-client side otherwise you get false positive data because of how lobbies are set up. I am fairly certain all options under "options" is only client side effects at this time. Otherwise it is would be a per mission choice at which point the mods already accomplish this.

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5 hours ago, ZodiacShinryu said:

The other option is a toggle option. Which then they need to add functionality host-client code to the option so that it would actually work non-client side otherwise you get false positive data because of how lobbies are set up. I am fairly certain all options under "options" is only client side effects at this time. Otherwise it is would be a per mission choice at which point the mods already accomplish this.

The current mods to handle it are already client based, so the code wont need to change much at all if they made it part of the options.  The handler would just need to look at options instead of the current sentinel load-out (fewer steps on the whole to achieve that).

Edited by Loswaith
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The argument people always put forward is "i dont want to grab all the energy orbs when im only missing 10 energy"  or hp when missing hp,  but why not simply make vaccuum not pick those two specific things up from long range?  Then everyone can enjoy all the resource looting they could want

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4 hours ago, Loswaith said:

The current mods to handle it are already client based, so the code wont need to change much at all if they made it part of the options.  The handler would just need to look at options instead of the current sentinel load-out (fewer steps on the whole to achieve that).

The visual parts are client side. Whether or not you are capable of vacuum is not. Data has to be sent to the host to verify you are collecting things. If you are collecting things but its not correctly sent to the host you can run into problems. The hosts data is far more important than the clients, it is partly why host migration causes so many problems when these inconsistences aren't corrected on the transfer.

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12 hours ago, Pawkeshup said:

Alright devs, I just don't understand, so please help me to.

The entire playerbase has been screaming for the removal of vacuum as a mod, and just the addition of it as a feature to allow us to collect items easier. I see you guys repeatedly denying to do this. And now you add a mod to Beast pets to compensate for what I, honestly, think has been just an oversight.

So just say why Universal Vacuum would so horridly break the game. Why would it be bad to have an extra mod slot on our sentinels to add in one of the countless mods you've added to the game in that spot? Why on earth would this break the game? I don't understand. It's so crippling for a new player to need to wait until they have a sentinel in order to even have the opportunity to use Vacuum.

Is this just stubborn insistence? What is the reason you do not want to give the player base this one thing?

because this way, they'll have to give the mag a decent passive.

also totally agree with the universal vacuum thing.

Edited by PabloX732
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Here i come beating the dead, rotten horse!

Most of the games tiles being narrow hallways and enemies usually following straight paths means Vacuum can scoop everything up without a second thought. So, from a game design stand point Vacuum makes the loot system largely redundant in most places in the game.

Scooping up energy, health and ammo also lessens the need to manage said resources, making Vacuum a buff to your uptime. Carrier especially allows you to be quite liberal with ammo expenditure.

Contrary to the third poster and what most people who want univac say, there are very good reasons as to why the game is better off without it.

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Being insane, I decided to play for a month without vacuum on for any mission, and a month with it on for every mission. I lost the paper I recorded the exact results on, but there was a massive, noticeable difference. What I do remember is roughly 500 Revenges without vs 1500 Revenges with, and a net loss of around 4-5million credits. I passed needing to keep track of most resources a year ago, but obviously they would've been affected as well. In short, not having Univac means less overall gain, which in turn means more incentive to make mistakes purchasing things from the market, or buying them off of other players.

Fetch is at least a nice compromise. Dogs and Kats will be more popular, meaning interest in imprints will go up, and assuming we'll have to grind for fetch or not have access to it right from the jump (and come on, this is DE we're talking about) that will maintain mistake buys as well. Is it a little scummy business wise? Yes, and I still say mod packs, individual resources like neurodes, and especially the "High Roller" credit bundle should be removed from the market, as DE openly stated in an interview that the old plat for Kubrow system needed to go. For better and worse, DE's too polite/ Canadian to just come out and say it about vacuum though.

That said, I can't wait to run around with my Cthulu spawned abomination and not have to worry about it. This issue has gone on for far too long.

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3 hours ago, Oreades said:

And those would be?

People will be mad about Vacuum regardless of whether they understand it or not, but I'm going to try and explain it for fun anyway.

Before I explain it, let me preface by saying that I play with a Smeeta Kavat for the grandest majority of the time and the lack of Vacuum is never an issue. It's slightly more convenient and it can help you pick up energy and health orbs, but the standard vacuum range is honestly ok.

The reason they gave Vacuum to sentinels only (and the reason they should keep it that way, flame me all you want) is that homogeneity of perks through the choices you can make is very bad for gameplay.

You need limitations and variety in order to provide choices that feel meaningful, and right now there are only 2 real reason to bring a sentinel over a Kavat, these being Vacuum and a Status Deth rifle to complement your Condition Overload melee. If there are any others, I have never heard of them. (I'm not talking about specific sentinels, like bringing Carrier for his specific ammo ability, I'm talking about a sentinel in general over a Kavat or a Kubrow)

On the other hand the reason you would bring a beast over a sentinel is that they can be ressed, they can aggro enemies and they can refill your HP when they do damage.

Saying "Bring Vacuum to pets" is like saying "Let my sentinel roam around and aggro enemies" or "Let me ress my sentinel". 

TL;DR- You need iconic variety and limitations, pros and cons, to make two things unique.

Ex. "Why can't Frost generate a hailstorm around him that lets me kill everything like Ember's 4 does?" Because Frost is not Ember.

If I learned anything about multiplayer games is that every community will always ask for "quality of life" changes that homogenize the game until it becomes a grey blob where nothing matters, and that in most cases developers shouldn't buckle down to these demands and focus on providing something that is fun rather than convenient.

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12 hours ago, PabloX732 said:

because this way, they'll have to give the mag a decent passive.

also totally agree with the universal vacuum thing.

Well, they're going to give Nyx a real passive with her upcoming changes instead of the active nerf she currently has right now. There is always the possibility (although Chroma still doesn't have a passive either).

EDIT:

Community: UV would give us more choices for companions!

DE: *adds UV*

Community: Why us anything other than Smeeta? Sentinels are pointless. Plz give them something unique!

DE: ...

Smeeta sucks because it's ridiculously unreliable. I once spent a full half hour running around in an empty (it was exterminate) syndicate mission for it to give me a double resource buff so that I could pick up the super medallion before just giving up and leaving after getting nothing out of it. Wyrm, on the other hand, will *always* rocket the enemies away from me. Shade will *always* cloak me (cooldowns notwithstanding). If I were to ever use a critter instead of a sentinel, it would probably be critcat simply because its buff is consistent and reliable. And don't forget that sentinel weapons are not only capable of causing procs (and the resulting CC effects), but that they will actually fire on the enemies consistently. Sure, your cat might do a huge amount of damage in one strike, but how long does it take for that strike to actually happen? My Dethcube is going to out-DPS your cat simply by virtue of attacking 10 times per second instead of once every 30 seconds.

In any case, I'm still never using animals because of the stupid genetic degradation mechanic. The only time that's justified is for hybrid abominations.

Edited by DoomFruit
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