Please Explain Why Universal Vacuum Is Bad

[Nirrel]

3 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Most suggestions call for it to be optional, so if you don't want it you don't have to use it.

The point is that different people have different pain tolerances. Would you deny someone total anesthesia based on the fact that YOU can't feel pain?

That's nonsensical.

Still you didn't demonstrate that there is pain...it seems more an immaginary pain than a real one.

It is not that I want or not to use it. It isn't relevant what I want. DE wants looting resourses to be more painful than just load in, bulletjump to extraction and everything is served to you automatically on a silver plate. Pizzas for example can make a difference in a mission and to have the said resourses you have to grind, if not what is even the point to have resourses in a game? I've even saw ideas to not to have to loot at all, you just get it the end of the mission, because it's so painful to get close to a resourse that get automatically moved in your inventory......On the other hand I open my inventory and without even grinding for stuff I have so many resourses that the next 10 years of gameplay wouldn't be enough to spend them.

Do I agree with the pityful 3 m loot radius? No, I don't, because it's too much of a difference in between 3 and 12. If it would be more like 7/8m UV at least than people would percieve it more like a choice to sacrifice the mod space on your sentinel/pet for more range but it wouldn't feel like all or nothing. I would let ppl use a slider instead of a toggle.  As it is the difference is too big to give any meaningful choice, but I disagree to get 12 m gratis without any sacrifice on the player's part, in the end of the day it does make certain moments easier in the game. Like when you really need that energy or health ball, but to get it you have get through a horde of enemies that trying to kill you. There is some reason why some people and DE says that the tradeoff of a modslot is fair. Perhaps everybody would be happier trying to meet up halfway instaed of demand to get their way throwing around absurd hyperboles, like 12m UV is needed, the game cannot be played without it.

2 hours ago, Nitro747 said:

The only thing you proved with that screenshot is that you like using Kavats. That's good for you. Do you want a lollipop? A prize? It's your personal opinion, it doesn't really matter when people are discussing something that affects literally millions of players. It's like trying to say that you adore AW as it is and has no problem only playing AW and then trying to "prove" to people that its completely fine as it is and that people are just lazy and entitled for wanting changes.

The point was, which you choose to miss,  that even using a cat that had no vacuum, I'm still bathing in resources just playing the game normally. It's not an opinion, is a fact as you could see. You can not like it, but that's how it is. You just come through as a passive aggressive guy, who cannot stand if somebody contradicts him and immediately ready for the offensive. It doesn't help your case.

Obviously if somebody never moves from Hydron 80% of the time than it will be very difficult to get resourses. But you know what I don't care for them.

BTW, I do like AW. Implemented well and integrated propely into the core gameplay, would have been fantastic, but unfortunately as many other things that were added to the game is but never fleshed out and let to rot is and remains just a lost opportunity. Still I do like it.

 

Edited October 31, 2018 by Nirrel

[DiabolusUrsus]

46 minutes ago, Nirrel said:

Still you didn't demonstrate that there is pain...it seems more an immaginary pain than a real one.

Neat. Unfortunately, it doesn't really matter whether it seems imaginary to you because you're not the one actually experiencing it.

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It is not that I want or not to use it. It isn't relevant what I want. DE wants looting resourses to be more painful than just load in, bulletjump to extraction and everything is served to you automatically on a silver plate.

How is keeping Vacuum as a mod accomplishing this?

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Pizzas for example can make a difference in a mission and to have the said resourses you have to grind, if not what is even the point to have resourses in a game?

So who suggested making health/energy/ammo restores free? Restores confer a significant gameplay advantage, so it actually makes sense for those to have a notable cost.

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I've even saw ideas to not to have to loot at all, you just get it the end of the mission, because it's so painful to get close to a resourse that get automatically moved in your inventory.

And what's the problem with that? Sure, it would require more thorough anti-leeching measures but that's far from impossible. Why is it necessary to actually physically pick up loot?

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.....On the other hand I open my inventory and without even grinding for stuff I have so many resourses that the next 10 years of gameplay wouldn't be enough to spend them.

Neat. So in essence Vacuum doesn't matter anyway, as players will naturally nullify resource grind simply by playing. In that case, what is the harm in adding universal Vacuum?

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Do I agree with the pityful 3 m loot radius? No, I don't, because it's too much of a difference in between 3 and 12. If it would be more like 7/8m UV at least than people would percieve it more like a choice to sacrifice the mod space on your sentinel/pet for more range but it wouldn't feel like all or nothing. I would let ppl use a slider instead of a toggle.  As it is the difference is too big to give any meaningful choice, but I disagree to get 12 m gratis without any sacrifice on the player's part, in the end of the day it does make certain moments easier in the game. Like when you really need that energy or health ball, but to get it you have get through a horde of enemies that trying to kill you. There is some reason why some people and DE says that the tradeoff of a modslot is fair. Perhaps everybody would be happier trying to meet up halfway instaed of demand to get their way throwing around absurd hyperboles, like 12m UV is needed, the game cannot be played without it.

Fair enough. I think a compromise would be fair, but I still don't see the problem with a default 12 m vacuum. What if players needed a Warframe-specific adapter similar to an Exilus to unlock the Vacuum effect? Perhaps a crafted Landing Craft segment similar to the Kavat incubator? That way there is still an cost to acquiring it.

However, I disagree that Vacuum is all that useful in combat. As someone who mostly plays a Health Conversion + Shield of Shadows Nekros, health orbs are critical to my build. When my Sentinel dies I miss Guardian and Ammo Case much more than I do Vacuum in terms of difficulty because picking up orbs isn't actually hard... just annoying. Get-out-of-jail-free cards like Void Mode are also much more effective at emergency saves than Vacuum, and those actually are completely free once unlocked. I cannot think of a single situation where Vacuum has been critical to my survival.

I realize that this section below is addressing another poster, but I'm still weighing in because it's relevant to our discussion as well.

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The point was, which you choose to miss,  that even using a cat that had no vacuum, I'm still bathing in resources just playing the game normally. It's not an opinion, is a fact as you could see. You can not like it, but that's how it is. You just come through as a passive aggressive guy, who cannot stand if somebody contradicts him and immediately ready for the offensive. It doesn't help your case.

Actually, it does. It illustrates that Vacuum doesn't make a significant difference beyond how players perceive the game experience. It obviously isn't some godly resource grinding tool, and it isn't a particularly powerful combat buff because it tends to waste more health/energy than is actually needed.

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Obviously if somebody never moves from Hydron 80% of the time than it will be very difficult to get resourses. But you know what I don't care for them.

Cool, neither do I. How are they relevant to this discussion though? It's not like players only use Vacuum at Hydron.

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BTW, I do like AW. Implemented well and integrated propely into the core gameplay, would have been fantastic, but unfortunately as many other things that were added to the game is but never fleshed out and let to rot is and remains just a lost opportunity. Still I do like it.

This I actually strongly agree with. AW has a lot of potential, but that potential won't be realized until DE stops treating it like abandonware. Kind of like a lot of other features, actually... 😐

Edited October 31, 2018 by DiabolusUrsus

[Cephalycion]

6 hours ago, Nirrel said:

That's really not a good quote considering that I've just proved with a screenshoot that without any effort to loot and not using vacuum you will still end up with so many resourses that you cannot even use up. Believe me I tried. I built many useless stuff that I've never even used, participated in clan research ecc. I gave all my mutagen samples for the hema, so all that I have now I got just playing the game with a cat, virtually never going into the derelict either.

So tell me how 12m vacuum would have benefit me. I could have doubled the quantity of stuff?

It seems more like wanting total anestesia even if you cannot feel pain hardly at all.

 

 

 

Thanks for flexing your wealth of resources on everyone else. Want a cookie?

Btw, people have lives and jobs, and can't spend the whole day playing the game, just sayin.

If you are against a QoL feature such as innate vacuum just because you already have all the resources you ever need, that sounds like a pretty selfish attitude.

[(PSN)Spider_Enigma]

33 minutes ago, Cephalycion said:

Thanks for flexing your wealth of resources on everyone else. Want a cookie?

Btw, people have lives and jobs, and can't spend the whole day playing the game, just sayin.

If you are against a QoL feature such as innate vacuum just because you already have all the resources you ever need, that sounds like a pretty selfish attitude.

the people not playing the game, arnt the ones that want vaccume... because well they arnt playing the game

if we cna get everything WITHOUT vacuum? then whats the reason for it?

secondly y would the devs cut grind in a grind game, when players are getting everything as is?

your argument has to be why we should have it....

and u have yet to show us a reason why its needed

infact if the grind is cut, then people will play LESS and there is already people burning throu everything and quitting 

Edited October 31, 2018 by (PS4)Spider_Enigma

[DiabolusUrsus]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Spider_Enigma said:

the people not playing the game, arnt the ones that want vaccume... because well they arnt playing the game

There's a difference between not playing at all and not being able to play 8 hours a day due to working full-time.

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if we cna get everything WITHOUT vacuum? then whats the reason for it?

Because Vacuum makes looting more enjoyable for many players.

If Vacuum makes a small difference anyway, what is the reason against it?

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secondly y would the devs cut grind in a grind game, when players are getting everything as is?

Because Vacuum actually has very little effect on grind. As others in this thread have shown, players already have huge stockpiles of resources regardless of using Vacuum or not.

The actual limiting factors are rare resources like Argon or Nitain. Argon can't be stockpiled, and Nitain isn't even a drop.

It's not like Vacuum increases drop chances; it only makes picking things up less of a hassle.

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your argument has to be why we should have it...

It makes the game more fun for us.

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and u have yet to show us a reason why its needed

^ see previous.

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infact if the grind is cut, then people will play LESS and there is already people burning throu everything and quitting 

Good thing Vacuum doesn't cut grind. It just makes it less tedious.

Resources still drop in the same quantities. Resources still have the same drop chances. What's the big deal?

[Fallen_Echo]

7 hours ago, Mach25 said:

[emphasis mine]

A proposed solution: have innate vacuum (since the frames have it already, as evinced by the weapons clinging to them without some type of holster) to maintain key aspects of this digital product: smoothness and fluidity. Make it reasonable enough to where it's noticeable, but not so far as to negate the usefulness of other companions. It should be communicated to the user that they're running on the backup generator by relying on suit magnetism alone for item collection - sure, the lights are on, but they're rather dull - you want the main reactor on for optimal power, i.e. sentinels/companions. (Fallout New Vegas reference)

I propose that one can pick up mods and the like at range to where you will not have to practically do a belly-flop on the items to pick them up, yet sentinels and companions can do it better (personally, I would like animal companions to have some type of visual model showing they have vacuum on, say a tiny hoover vacuum on each flank [half-joke]). Allow the suit's innate vacuum to stack with sentinels/companions to achieve the maximum desired range, whatever that may be.

  Reveal hidden contents

I would much more prefer this solution:

Universal looting is the literal best option for games like warframe and if the problem is that the gametime may shrink all DE needs to do to tweak some droprates.

[Atsia]

4 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

I would much more prefer this solution:

Universal looting is the literal best option for games like warframe and if the problem is that the gametime may shrink all DE needs to do to tweak some droprates.

I'm gonna raise the same points brought up in the thread itself, it's nice, but really would mostly just make leeching far easier. I also personally don't feel like everyone should just get access to loot from halfway across a tileset, and I can see the argument of this making marking drops redundant. It's just a bit too much on the opposite end of the spectrum of Vacuum for my tastes

[(PSN)Spider_Enigma]

i know im on the side, agaisnt it, because i know thats the devs side, but i would really like ultra super all item grabber prime mod that costs nothing to use

but i know that if all the items are dumped on me, they will have to cut the amount of loot in half, and id rather keep the current rates...

[Fallen_Echo]

44 minutes ago, Atsia said:

I'm gonna raise the same points brought up in the thread itself, it's nice, but really would mostly just make leeching far easier. I also personally don't feel like everyone should just get access to loot from halfway across a tileset, and I can see the argument of this making marking drops redundant. It's just a bit too much on the opposite end of the spectrum of Vacuum for my tastes

The pinnacle of the coop experience is when a guy kills some mob and you get a rare drop for it, not when the said guy marks the drop like "if you want this backtrack 300 meters". The main objective is to remove all pickups expect a few like ayatans, objectives, collectibles, energy and healtg orbs, etc....

 

As for leeching riddle me this, why would you do a survival/exterminate/spy/excavation as a leech when you can go and stay afk as a limbo in pretty much any defense mission? The reason why we have leeches is the affinity system and the poe bounty systems.

The current affinity system encourages players to let others do the killing and the best place for this behaviour is the defense maps. The endgame scoreboard also help to further enlarge the problem as people measure activity with damage, taken damage and kills while they are not suited for that. I have a suggestion for that but im gonna post it in a different thread.

[SteveCutler]

With the upcoming Fetch change, pets will finally be (mostly) fixed - they'll still suffer from a lack of mod slots. But what about everything else? Where's my vacuum for skywing? Where's my hoverboard vacuum? Where's my operator vacuum? Where's my Titania Razorwing vacuum? These are the biggest issues where universal vacuum would solve everything.