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Lower enemy count , tougher enemy


ScottLin
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In endless missions situation can become too chaotic due to high enemy density in small area. This can lead to players spamming ability, only using aoe weapons and overall having a less engaging experience. I think DE can solve this problem by : 1. make the level bigger so enemies are more spread out. 2. lower enemy count but make them tougher. my suggestion would be 50%less and 200% tougher for basic enemy, 75% less and 125%tougher for stronger enemy.  Warframe like saryn and volt probably would feel less overpowered after these changes. DE should also make basic enemy more threatening and more interesting to fight. What do other people think ?

Edited by ScottLin
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This is a horde style shooter so I think that is not the style of gameplay it is designed around.  I do think there is more that could be done to give some variety and that includes some of the ideas that you presented.  Possibly certain rounds could be more focused around a boss type enemy coming in that all players need to work together to kill.  This could also help to get players to stick together rather than running off to their own corner of the map and no longer sharing affinity.

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You shouldn't be using the "Megathread" tag as that's supposed to be a developer only tag so you should remove it.

Either way, most tilesets have places to choose where you want to engage either in a large area or in a condensed area. You've also not stated how you would make the enemies tougher.

Lastly, this kind of thing once you figure out what you mean by tougher should be in the feedback forums and don't say "More Armor and/or Health" because that won't change much.

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12 minutes ago, MarbleRyedogg said:

Possibly certain rounds could be more focused around a boss type enemy coming in that all players need to work together to kill.  This could also help to get players to stick together rather than running off to their own corner of the map and no longer sharing affinity.

Alot players have been asking for something like this

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It would be boring if the enemy count lowered because this is a horde shooter. This was not supposed to be darksouls or other hardcore extra difficult pve game. This supposed to be fun and mass number elimination. If you lower the number that means you destroy it's souls it's meanings. I can agree with tougher enemies but personally the AI is what I wish to boost and add more tactical option to the mobs.

 

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Level scaling =/= difficulty.

Mission design that necessitates consideration of power use = difficulty.

We spam powers because it's the best option. If missions couldn't be completed by standing  in one place and spamming one button, then they wouldn't be played that way. Not all missions should be like this, of course, but any kind of 'challenge' mission will need to be adapted to suit it.

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33 minutes ago, MarbleRyedogg said:

This is a horde style shooter so I think that is not the style of gameplay it is designed around.  I do think there is more that could be done to give some variety and that includes some of the ideas that you presented.  Possibly certain rounds could be more focused around a boss type enemy coming in that all players need to work together to kill.  This could also help to get players to stick together rather than running off to their own corner of the map and no longer sharing affinity.

It is true it is a horde shooter, but the enemy counts keep going up and up. This is severely limiting our options as players. More than half of the warframes cannot compete at all in ESO. Most are objectively useless in arbitrations. Weapons that don't AoE are complete trash now. If you want to use a rifle, you better hope it has 2,5+m punch through. Otherwise it's trash. This is also why melee is king, especially the big weapons - big weapons cleave in a huge range, making them objectively the best weapons in the game. They can hit more enemies per second than any other weapon.

It is a horde shooter. But it's core isn't a horde shooter. It's core is a much smaller scale shooter, and roughly 80% of the weapons and half the warframes we have are designed for that purpose. Warframe is a bit of a mess now. A charming mess nonetheless. We can criticize it all we want, but it's a game that gets 90k players logged on at the same time, so it does something right.

 

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Warframe really only became a horde shooter because our power has gone up so much over time that individual enemies (even bosses) don't matter anymore. Enemies got killed faster and faster, so to keep players interested with no down time had to spawn more enemies.

I won't be surprised if we reach a point where even multiple Eidolons simultaneously becomes normal content.

Edited by Maicael
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38 minutes ago, boysenbeary said:

This is how you kill survival missions, which depend on you killing a high amount of enemies to keep lifesupport up

Well, to counter this the life support drops could be made more common, no? OP's idea is solid and has been solid simply because DE has all the knobs that can be turned. But alright, a new angle to it: What if every enemy you kill gives you 1% Life support. Add to that the 4% life support drops and the 30% towers. Mix a bit of Onslaught into it. 

The beauty of the concept of "more quality, less quantity" enemies is that it would give more justification to have and go for that insane damage output we possess. The argument of "It's a horde shooter" is stupid in that it limits what the game can offer. Having a basic "Then fight level 100 enemies." argument also doesn't hold up because there are a few of mechanics and multipliers that make these enemies essentially broken (armor, I'm looking at you) and meaningless (slash, I'm also looking at you). Meaning a "challenger tier" enemy would be tougher and deal more damage, but not simply by pumping up the level. 

In fact this would be a great alternative to introduce non-level scaling enemy designs. Meaning enemies that don't have levels. Even something as basic as a Lancer who's stats have been manually set to not match (because it is a Lancer) but be a capable threat in three or four to a higher end Tenno. 

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1 minute ago, Joe_Barbarian said:

Still waiting on what you define as tougher...

Well, a better AI I suppose, and higher damage because you get shot less. More health may be required but give enemy an ability to actually dodge our attack would be cool. Armor can stay the same, damage reduction on enemy really isn't fun.  I also suggest making some tight hallway wider so enemies get stuck less.

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Just now, ScottLin said:

Well, a better AI I suppose, and higher damage because you get shot less. More health may be required but give enemy an ability to actually dodge our attack would be cool. Armor can stay the same, damage reduction on enemy really isn't fun.  I also suggest making some tight hallway wider so enemies get stuck less.

Overhauling the whole AI system will take a long time because of stuff like testing etc. When I say a long time I mean years.

As for tilesets, the players get to pick and choose where they fight, redesigning the map again will take a long time and won't change much tbh.

As for enemies getting stuck that comes down to AI Path Finding which is known to DE for a long time is screwed up and needs more than just a couple of hotfixes to change it. They need to unf*** it before Fortuna otherwise it's going to be a make Fortuna launch as terrible as Plains launch was. 

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15 hours ago, ScottLin said:

In endless missions situation can become too chaotic due to high enemy density in small area. This can lead to players spamming ability, only using aoe weapons and overall having a less engaging experience. I think DE can solve this problem by : 1. make the level bigger so enemies are more spread out. 2. lower enemy count but make them tougher. my suggestion would be 50%less and 200% tougher for basic enemy, 75% less and 125%tougher for stronger enemy.  Warframe like saryn and volt probably would feel less overpowered after these changes. DE should also make basic enemy more threatening and more interesting to fight. What do other people think ?

How about no. We already have a scaling problem with this game and making them "tougher" will make it worse. We don't need tougher enemies, we need smarter enemies than aren't just bullet sponges who deal tons of damage.

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14 hours ago, Joe_Barbarian said:

Overhauling the whole AI system will take a long time because of stuff like testing etc. When I say a long time I mean years.

Even if it would take a long time it would be such a massive improvement for the game.

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