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Damage vs More Crit Damage for Gram Prime


Jiccs
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OK so I have your standard hybrid build on gram prime. I'm currently using true steel, gladiator might, virulent scourge, viscous frost, blood rush, berserker, organ shatter, and drifting contact. What I need to know is whether i should replace that gladiator might with pressure point or not as i'm already using organ shatter. Gram p has a base crit multiplier of 2.6x and i will have over 100% crit chance using blood rush.

Edited by Jiccs
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2 hours ago, Jiccs said:

standard hybrid build on gram prime. I'm currently using true steel, gladiator might, virulent scourge, viscous frost, blood rush, berserker, organ shatter, and drifting contact.

4 of your "standard build" mods don't belong in there. I maybe would agree if you had corrosive in there but sure won't with Viral. You also have too much slash for viral to be effective (and you can't lower the slash portion). In your current build slash will proc 2.5 times as often as viral. 

2 hours ago, Jiccs said:

Gram p has a base crit multiplier of 2.6x and i will have over 100% crit chance using blood rush.

Organ Shatter is more than enough CD since Blood Rush gives you redcrits

You will get far better results with:

(Primed) Pressure Point, (Primed) Fury, (Primed) Reach, Blood Rush, Weeping Wounds, Organ Shatter, Drifting Contact and Berserker

If this weapon is fast enough for you with Berserker only then switch out Fury to sth you see fit. But you don't need True Steel because your critchance is high enough due to Blood Rush

Edited by GnarlsDarkley
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Just now, GnarlsDarkley said:

4 of your "standard build" mods don't belong in there. I maybe would agree if you had corrosive in there but sure won't with Viral

You will get far better results with:

(Primed) Pressure Point, (Primed) Fury, (Primed) Reach, Blood Rush, Weeping Wounds, Organ Shatter, Drifting Contact and Berserker

If this weapon is fast enough for you with Berserker only then switch out Fury to sth you see fit. But you don't need True Steel because your critchance is high enough due to Blood Rush

Actually True Steel (or Sacrificial Steel) is not a bad choice. This allows the user to get a far higher crit chance and push the weapon into red crits very fast. It is the difference between reaching level 3 crits for all hits compared to mostly level 2 crits at 2x combo. But the trade off is less status chance or range.

To go with very high DPS, one actually would go with:

Primed Pressure Point/Sacrificial Pressure, Primed Fury/Berserker (pick one), Blood Rush, Sacrificial Steel, Organ Shatter, Drifting Contact, 2x 60/60 for Viral. Of course if you cannot stand the low range then use Primed Reach over the elementals and slot another attack speed into the last slot. Or Riven if you have it.

 

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Gladiator Might on top of Organ Shatter: 1.9 + 0.6 == 2.5 / 1.9 == 1.3157x
Primed Pressure Point is 2.65x Damage unless you have a Riven with +Damage on it.

Pressure Point wins by a huge margin, including that it still boosts your Damage even if you don't Crit.

True Steel is not an effective Mod though (Sacrificial Steel is high enough to be viable for specialized Loadouts, True Steel is not). Condition Overload would be much preferable there overall, instead.

whether you use Status Elementals is up to you - with or without are both good choices.

 

14 minutes ago, GnarlsDarkley said:

I maybe would agree if you had corrosive in there but sure won't with Viral. You also have too much slash for viral to be effective (and you can't lower the slash portion). In your current build slash will proc 2.5 times as often as viral. 

what
that's a desirable Slash:Viral Ratio. you WANT to apply Slash much more often than Viral. what are you even talking about.
applying Viral more often than Slash is literally useless. Viral Status does not stack while Slash Status does.

Corrosive+Slash? but why. if you're banking on Crit Slash, what place does Corrosive Status play (pst, it has no place). Viral is much preferable then.

18 minutes ago, GnarlsDarkley said:

Organ Shatter is more than enough CD since Blood Rush gives you redcrits

exceeding 100% Crit Chance increases the value of Crit Damage, not reduces it. multi-Critting means you get your Crit Damage applied multiple times.... and so you double dip your Crit Damage Stat.
if exceeding 100% Crit Chance made Crit Damage not that important, then we wouldn't be using any Crit Damage Mods on Melee Weapons at all (and some Guns too). but that's mathematically bonkers and ergo doesn't make any sense.

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2 hours ago, taiiat said:

exceeding 100% Crit Chance increases the value of Crit Damage, not reduces it. multi-Critting means you get your Crit Damage applied multiple times.... and so you double dip your Crit Damage Stat.

What he said is that Organ Shatter + Blood Rush will give you red crits, which are triple crits, which is the max amount of multicrit.

And it's true, Blood Rush + CD + some gladiator mods will get you to orange and red crits very very fast, especially on something like the Gram Prime.

Personally I use Tempo Royale, Berserker, Fury, Primed Fever Strike, Primed Reach, Primed Pressure point, Blood Rush, Gladiator Rush and a Riven for with Range and Crit Damage. So far I haven't found anything it doesn't oneshot except heavy gunners over lv100, and even then it doesn't take much. Just 2 Forma.

I would replace the riven with Organ Shatter or Gladiator Might.

I advise against elemental mods on melee in general unless you're going for Condition Overload, with the exception of Fever Strike for 2 reasons:
1 Toxin damage will skip shields counteracting the one weakness of slash and puncture weapons at higher levels and  2 It's the only elemental mod for melee that is Primed and you can't really pass up on 150% damage.

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35 minutes ago, Hikelos said:

which is the max amount of multicrit.

 

And it's true, Blood Rush + CD + some gladiator mods will get you to orange and red crits very very fast, especially on something like the Gram Prime.

 

I advise against elemental mods on melee in general unless you're going for Condition Overload

Red Crits is anything 300%+, but there is no cap to Crit Chance. the color not changing doesn't mean you're not still dealing more Damage.
exactly what Blood Rush banks on when it exponentially Multiplies Crits, and why breaking the game with Blood Rush is so popular. which as i must always mention is with all things Crits, not just Slide Crit.
if 300% Crit Chance was a cap for Crit Chance, Slide Crit would never have gotten popular in the first place. the Damage you'd get would just be total garbage. it's good because Blood Rush will Multiply it (or any other form of increasing Crit Chance, just gotta be crystal clear when i say that Blood Rush is exponential with EVERYTHING) up into insane numbers. in short, any sort of Slide Crit Loadout has at minimum 750% Crit Chance at a 2.5x Hit Counter. though you're generally looking at 1000%+.

and this is so important because of Crit Tiers stacking with Crit Damage.
at 1000% Crit Chance, a Weapon with a Crit Damage of 2.0 deals 11x Damage. (Crit Damage + (Crit Damage - 1) * number of times you are Critting past one)
at the same Crit Chance, a Weapon with a Crit Damage of 3.8 deals 29x Damage.
that is 2.636x of the 2.0 Crit Damage. this is much higher than just the 90% of Organ Shatter, because exceeding 100% Crit Chance increases the value of Crit Damage, not reduces it.
for a more extreme example, with 1000% Crit Chance and a Crit Damage of 5.0, such a Weapon deals 41x Damage. from only +150% Crit Damage. 3.727x of 2.0 Crit Damage.

 

how much Crit Damage you have doesn't change your Crit Chance. only how big your Damage Numbers will be.

 

well that's weakening your Damage unless a Melee Weapon has enough hamperments that you need to fill a lot of Mod slots with not Damage to compensate for its problems (Heavy Melee is a common example, where people are usually using 2 Speed Mods AND Range). Melee Weapons which don't suffer such situations have more Mod Slots free to have a full Crit Loadout, with Condition Overload, and still have room for Elementals.
Elementals are desirable in such a case without Condition Overload as well, considering that two 90% Elementals triples your paper Damage and generally in play would be even higher than that if you're picking an Elemental Type that the Enemy is weak to.
however you can get away without using Elementals on Weapons which can can amplify Slash Status to vaporize things (just like how some Guns can do the same). but others cannot or have more free space and so can have Elementals stand in for that or just have the best of everything.

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30 minutes ago, taiiat said:

Red Crits is anything 300%+, but there is no cap to Crit Chance. the color not changing doesn't mean you're not still dealing more Damage.

I had no idea that was a thing. I assumed it had to have some sort of cap, but in hindsight that's not how DE does things.

Thanks for the heads up. But in any case, my Gram Prime build can kill pretty much anything with orange crits even. Maybe it isn't broken but it is definitely more than enough for just about anything. The range riven makes all the difference, I can hit 8m away.

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Thanks to everyone for the input except for the corrosive/slash guy. Just so everyone knows I did already know about crits unlimitedly scaling and blood rush scales based on MODDED crit chance so with my base of 64% chance to crit I can already get insane numbers. I "could" change my two status mods to get condition overload, but then my status chance is too low to properly proc it anyway and viral wont cut the enemies health in half. I can see replacing gladiators might with pressure point as the better option because while I do lose crit damage the increased base damage I'm getting from it will be affected by organ shatter.

Edited by Jiccs
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