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From a solo perspective the game is balanced


cheliel
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The risk of failure is still there during solo mode 

It loses the challenge as people say, once 2 or more are in a squad 

Theoretical Solution would be to scale difficulty based on number of people queued 

Another solution is a “challenge me” aura so that only those asking for more difficulty will get it and the solutions won’t be nerfed soon enough when the balance tips off and someone complains 

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15 minutes ago, cheliel said:

someone complains

Here's the secret, though: DE doesn't make changes because people complain and whine that X needs to be buffed or nerfed. People want "challenge" not actual challenge, but something to inflate their ego and throw shinies at them. People think the "challenge": of T4 Void is gone, but the nodes are there, they just don't throw Prime parts at you for a single key.

17 minutes ago, cheliel said:

Theoretical Solution would be to scale difficulty based on number of people queued 

"Scale difficulty" how? By what metric?

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I’ve seen the game from an overpowered 4 man squad perspective, with minmax modding and an arca plasmor. 

Now, I’m doing a PC account, I see it as balanced when doing solo star chart progression. 

But one could afk or be lost in the map and still see mission success. 

One person shouldn’t be able to handle the load of others, we could add more enemies/damage/armor for every player added to a squad or are we already seeing this? 

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16 minutes ago, cheliel said:

I’ve seen the game from an overpowered 4 man squad perspective, with minmax modding and an arca plasmor. 

Now, I’m doing a PC account, I see it as balanced when doing solo star chart progression. 

But one could afk or be lost in the map and still see mission success. 

its not. Someone who takes Excal as a starter and gets his hands on mods like Intensify, Flow, Streamline and maybe Continuity, wont have problems clearing the whole star chart in a day...

 

17 minutes ago, cheliel said:

One person shouldn’t be able to handle the load of others, we could add more enemies/damage/armor for every player added to a squad or are we already seeing this? 

there are already more enemeis, the more players are in the mission (atleast in endless)

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35 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

Here's the secret, though: DE doesn't make changes because people complain and whine that X needs to be buffed or nerfed. People want "challenge" not actual challenge, but something to inflate their ego and throw shinies at them. People think the "challenge": of T4 Void is gone, but the nodes are there, they just don't throw Prime parts at you for a single key.

"Scale difficulty" how? By what metric?

T4 Void wasn't all that challenging. But it was one of those modes where people actually kept going for any amount of time past the bare minimum.

What people who talk about the Old Void want is missions with enemies that aren't entirely trivial to defeat and where people will stick around for some amount of time rather than getting out after rotation A, or the first C that rolls around.

Edited by marelooke
typos
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54 minutes ago, marelooke said:

What people who talk about the Old Void want is missions with enemies that aren't entirely trivial to defeat and where people will stick around for some amount of time rather than getting out after rotation A, or the first C that rolls around.

This is flat out wrong. The "old" Void is there. You are free to do those same nodes to the same time that you did before. People don't because the game doesn't give you a bunch of Prime parts for the one key. What you are seeing are people entirely driven by the rewards. Perhaps nobody was actually into the old Void for the hard enemies, but the Prime parts thrown at them.

You aren't going to fix the players.

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2 hours ago, peterc3 said:

This is flat out wrong. The "old" Void is there. You are free to do those same nodes to the same time that you did before. People don't because the game doesn't give you a bunch of Prime parts for the one key. What you are seeing are people entirely driven by the rewards. Perhaps nobody was actually into the old Void for the hard enemies, but the Prime parts thrown at them.

You aren't going to fix the players.

Thank you for saying this Peter3.  It's just a simple truth that needed to be said.  

 

To OP, I have played this game almost exclusively solo for almost 3 years now.  84.2% of that was as Ivara.  What I can say is that in some aspects the game is more balanced during solo play than it is during group play, BUT it's still not balanced even then.  

Why I say this you may ask.  I will use Ivara as a Prime example of why solo still isn't balanced.  Ivara happens to have a kit and power set that actually becomes more powerful in solo play.  Because then things like Noise Arrow works, stealth kill, and stealth damage multipliers can get to massive levels.  Add in that she can't get oneshotted by a random bullet meant for someone else, means that her survivability is increased in solo play.  Ivara and a few other frames showcase why solo mode isn't balanced. 

Now to the elephant in the room.  Is there really such a thing a balance in a PvE game? Yes, just not in the way that most on the forums seem to think.  

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3 hours ago, peterc3 said:

This is flat out wrong. The "old" Void is there. You are free to do those same nodes to the same time that you did before. People don't because the game doesn't give you a bunch of Prime parts for the one key. What you are seeing are people entirely driven by the rewards. Perhaps nobody was actually into the old Void for the hard enemies, but the Prime parts thrown at them.

You aren't going to fix the players.

This and,  "People want 'challenge.'  Not actual challenge, but something to inflate their ego and throw shinies at them. "

Most people seem to equate "challenge" in this game to the little number under everything's health bar and how many shots it takes to kill those everything's.  From level 40 to level 2000, the strategy is the same: "Deny them the capability to hurt me, and gun them down as fast as possible."  The challenge is effectively resource management and timing our button presses with a little positioning thrown in.  I've seen Life of Rio's vid's - they're boring as $#!% to watch because he's just standing in one room the whole time as he shows us one of his multi-hour runs while ranting about something.  Most endless mission videos look something like this.  Stand in a spot, CC and mow down baddies as they come to you helpless to do anything to you.  "Challenge."

No, REAL challenge is everything that makes this community SCREAM BLOODY MURDER - Bombard missiles, hook lines, toxic auras, healing ancients, NULLIFIERS.  Granted, many of the "challenge" mechanics came with little in the way of counter measures or clear indicators (bombard missiles are hard to see but can be dodged, as can the hook lines, toxic aura's reach isn't clearly defined) but ultimately, anything that forced the player to move because they couldn't simply rely on spamming a key while guzzling energy pizzas got screamed down to oblivion, with only the Nullifiers and healing ancients kinda sorta sticking around virtually untouched because their gimmicks are clearly telegraphed and work.  

If you want greater challenge, the game needs to change up enemy scaling a bit, like, 1-15 are lancers, 15-30/35 is elite lancers, and 35+ is all hellions smart enough to dodge away when someone casts an AoE ability and are immune to it during the dodge.  Ballista's inherit the buzlok after so many levels, and they'll stick out of line of sight long enough to tag ya, then fire safely from cover.  Heavy gunners or Bombards/Napalms with a solid shield that can't be punched through up front.  That sort of thing. 

Increasing raw numbers doesn't work, it just becomes a game of patience and supply (pizzas.)  Kind of have to limit the effectiveness of warframe powers to really add challenge to the game, and the current answer is "cheap" tricks, like nullifiers.

Edited by Littleman88
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game is not balanced solo or otherwise and far far from it. and as for the old void, it wasn't all about rewards it was about the difficulty with the hordes of enemies there and at some point 45 mins in you know you had to group up.

the game is dumbed down in almost everyway, which is why youre seeing a lot of threads  with ppl saying they are bored and there is no challenge. DE had all the time in the world and some to make their product more attractive and give the vets the challenge that they crave we earned it with our long support of the game.

arbitrations or elite alerts kinda say they don't have a clue in what they are doing or the direction they want to go. have you played solo survival in this? youll be crying for ls packs from the enemies no matter how fast you kill them, the packs seems to drop from every 25-30 kills after you past rotation A, and after rotation c youre most likely in a bind with life support stations.

51 minutes ago, WindigoTG said:

The game is balanced if you're running Pluto/Sedna solo with no mods.

You start adding mods, the balance goes out of whack.

this right here is total bs it needs no explanation.

I really don't get why you think this game will ever be balanced when they cant even get spawning right or AI pathing corrected.

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1 minute ago, ranks21 said:

I really don't get why you think this game will ever be balanced when they cant even get spawning right or AI pathing corrected.

It won't ever be balanced, because no one will ever even try to balance it. It is too far gone at this point, too much has been built up.

 

A couple years back they've said on one of Devstreams that they're basing gear stats with the starchart in mind.

And that's exactly where the game feels balanced: 30-40-ish levels with unmodded gear.

But the existance of the modding system alone breaks the game beyond any hope.

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6 hours ago, cheliel said:

The risk of failure is still there during solo mode 

It loses the challenge as people say, once 2 or more are in a squad 

Theoretical Solution would be to scale difficulty based on number of people queued 

Another solution is a “challenge me” aura so that only those asking for more difficulty will get it and the solutions won’t be nerfed soon enough when the balance tips off and someone complains 

Solo Draco (old map)
Solo Hydron 20 waves
Solo Akkad 20 waves
Solo Sechura 20 waves
Solo Index

I managed to solo sortie in times where squad disconnected.
I managed to solo arbitration when teammates died and having to activate life support.

I managed to solo ANI survival for 45 minute with a Trinity and no corrosive projection. 
I managed to solo MOT for 20 minute just to test new gear out.

I used to joke about soloing Law of Retribution since now sortie 1 is just about that.
I will try to solo railjack next.
 

Now tell me solo mode is challenging ?

 

Edited by Ada_Wong_SG
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6 hours ago, cheliel said:

The risk of failure is still there during solo mode 

This isn't entirely correct but I can see your perspective.

If you are a solo player using vanilla mods in a balanced build and  with relatively few Forma applied to any of the kit...The game offers a measure of challenge whilst solo.

Once you go outside those parameters the game becomes more trivial for each blandishment you add whether it's Forma or more specialized mods.

29 minutes ago, Ada_Wong_SG said:

Now tell me solo mode is challenging ?

Are you saying that because you did these things it can't possibly have been challenging?:laugh:

...I can think of a number of way that content could have been challenging and even more ways it could be cheesed. One of the aspects of Warframe content is that most of it can be completed by players of almost any competence level in any number of different ways solo.

But applying assertions that XYZ isn't challenging applies an absolute to scenarios where absolutes don't really exist.

Ivara, Equinox, and Disco Duck can solo just about anything (and probably with starter gear). 

~36 different frames and countless builds for each assert that some will have more work on their hands than others based on choice, preferences, and available inventory.

The newer players that did their progression by themselves and never touched the wikia, youtube, or asked friends for advice could easily have found the bulk of that content challenging though.

Part of the reason I don't bother with endurance runs is the knowledge that preparing my gear to do that content ruins my gear for the rest of the game's content by trivializing that content. 

 

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33 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

Are you saying that because you did these things it can't possibly have been challenging?:laugh:

...I can think of a number of way that content could have been challenging and even more ways it could be cheesed. One of the aspects of Warframe content is that most of it can be completed by players of almost any competence level in any number of different ways solo.

But applying assertions that XYZ isn't challenging applies an absolute to scenarios where absolutes don't really exist.

Ivara, Equinox, and Disco Duck can solo just about anything (and probably with starter gear). 

~36 different frames and countless builds for each assert that some will have more work on their hands than others based on choice, preferences, and available inventory.

The newer players that did their progression by themselves and never touched the wikia, youtube, or asked friends for advice could easily have found the bulk of that content challenging though.

Part of the reason I don't bother with endurance runs is the knowledge that preparing my gear to do that content ruins my gear for the rest of the game's content by trivializing that content. 

 

I did all of those using Trinity/ Trinity Prime, which the main way to deal damage is through weapons 
while warframe abilities are mostly supportive.

It is my main warframe which I tend to play as Trinity for all missions. 
My philosophy is when a mission is hard usually it will need support, and if I am unable to solo those mission
trying to support a squad would be next to impossible.

Most of my weapon builds are intentionally "general purpose" and try to not touch rivens and 
other specialty mods like Hunter Munition while playing to add challenge with weapons that isn't optimally build to deal maximum damage.

As such I am already self-handicapping to try to add challenge to myself 
and refraining from going into Link chaining and Blessing spam unless necessary.

It might have been easier with other Warframes with more potent offensive capabilities like Mag, Saryn, Banshee, Ember.
Equinox, Mesa since a lot of them would be capable of erasing enemies at the convenience of a button press.

I use Trinity can 40% overall damage, If I switch to Mag or Saryn the number would be 
in the 60 - 80% range making people kind of hate me since I am stealing all the kills/fun.


For the endurance run part, I am kind of the opposite.
I usually goes into simulacrum and put up a level 100 corrupted heavy gunner 
as a "base specimen" to evaluate weapon's performance.

So all of my weapons are geared towards completing Rotation C as a minimum performance to be considered "combat ready"
since at any time you could be faced off with a host migration 15 wave into a defense mission
and have to solo 15 - 20 alone. It is more of coping with the situation you will run into than actually trivializing game content.
 

Edited by Ada_Wong_SG
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1 hour ago, Hypernaut1 said:

This player base does not want challenge at all beyond making enemies into bigger bullet sponges, that don't do damage. 

Anything that's ever released that provides a modicum of challenge to the player is immediately called for a nerf

Did u like my suggestion of a “challenge me” aura?

That way only those who asked for overwhelming odds will get that (DE can revert all the AI nerfs for them) 

While the playerbase who wants more of the same will get that  

Other solutions that came up is the scaling number of enemies based on how many members in squad (to get that overwhelming odds you feel in solo) and scaling based on the highest MR (to compensate for experience and high MR gear) 

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