Warframe Ability overhaul

[-SMG-Demiroach]

So we get reworks of certain abilities allot of the time, warframe back in the day did a big change to frames and abilities by changing it from tree to a mod system, not much has changed since then but has slowly evolved, this i my suggestion for for a big step in evolution for frames and abilities, especially concerning some mods that are considered virtually useless (Might make people take a big step back from stepping on prime sure footed) It also leaves more leway for new mods and increased diversity of builds

Warframes lose the use of certain mods that affect abilities, and only mods that affect warframe stats themselves work on it, meaning mods like diamond skin and primed sure footed will be in much more use:

https://imgur.com/gallery/JfznEhB

But in exchange, each ability will be able to be modded separately with augments acting as stances, so it can be used with or without a augment, but mods like continuity and stretch can affect each ability separately, this means that you can stop building single ability meta builds, and use more abilities on the frame, and if DE adds more augments for the same abilities, it will allow for even more increases in build diversity:

https://imgur.com/gallery/A3mZq0s

all in all, it makes more sense that frame only mods should be directed at frames instead of abilities, and it allows to get away from the meta, aswell as turning abilities into the new format of syncing of abilities which most if not all people on warframers have come to love

[peterc3]

Dump any sort of concept of limiting power and give and take with having to increase one stat at the expense of increasing or even decreasing another stat.

This is an absurd amount of power creep for no particular reason. This is, in effect, 36 more mod slots, including dedicated Augment slots.

There is nothing in this game that requires current levels of power, let alone your proposal.

[AndouRaiton]

I can understand your reasoning, and it does sound interesting. However, there is one problem; power creep. If i am able to mod each ability individually without having repercussions on other abilities then it will lead to every ability i have being min-maxed, which will lead to me be even more powerful than what i can currently become.

Image this on someone like Atlas; max strength on landslide, max duration or max range on petrify, max strength on tectonics and a mix of strength and duration for rumblers. Now i'm able to freeze large groups of enemies or freeze a small group for a long time with petrify, smash them to bits with landslide, block corridors with tectonics for quite a while and have rumblers doing there thing. With NO downsides.

[-SMG-Demiroach]

2 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

Dump any sort of concept of limiting power and give and take with having to increase one stat at the expense of increasing or even decreasing another stat.

This is an absurd amount of power creep for no particular reason. This is, in effect, 36 more mod slots, including dedicated Augment slots.

There is nothing in this game that requires current levels of power, let alone your proposal.

Understandable, and i have thought about it myself, but the game and gameplay itself has been limited to meta, creativity has come to a standstill when it comes to particular gameplay, this is why i called it an overhaul, and a big step into changing the way we deal with abilities and diversity of builds and creativity

[Azamagon]

So, if I understand you, what you're suggesting is for us to mod 5 things on each Warframe; The Warframe itself, and each of the 4 seperate abilities?

Could work, but I'd suggest that we then only have 6 slots for each of those setups (+1 when you account for aura/augment, and +1 more when accounting for Exilus). Otherwise, we'd see a whole new level of powercreep. I mean, even with me suggesting it to just 6 slots per "page", it'd STILL be a massive amount of slots regained.

On the hypothesis that you don't mod all slots for abilities right now, but also some survivability, we have 10 slots to use (8 normal + aura + exilus). With this, also assuming that each ability is modded the same way in each page (just for the sake of the argument, as seperate modding of abilities might not change much how we'd mod each individually), even with just 6 modslots per page, we'd have...

15 modslots!

6 warframe modslots + 1 aura slot + 1 exilus slot + 6 ability modslots (on each ability) + 1 augment slot (on each ability page).

But if you count each of those pages individually (as some Warframes would greatly benefit from having seperated modding for each ability), you'd get...

36 modslots! And that's WITH a reduction in modslots. As per your original suggestion with 8 basic modslots on each page, that'd go up to a total of 46(!) modslots.

So... I hardly think anything like this would happen. Even if it actually would be interesting from a design PoV.

Edited October 21, 2018 by Azamagon

[-SMG-Demiroach]

10 minutes ago, AndouRaiton said:

I can understand your reasoning, and it does sound interesting. However, there is one problem; power creep. If i am able to mod each ability individually without having repercussions on other abilities then it will lead to every ability i have being min-maxed, which will lead to me be even more powerful than what i can currently become.

Image this on someone like Atlas; max strength on landslide, max duration or max range on petrify, max strength on tectonics and a mix of strength and duration for rumblers. Now i'm able to freeze large groups of enemies or freeze a small group for a long time with petrify, smash them to bits with landslide, block corridors with tectonics for quite a while and have rumblers doing there thing. With NO downsides.

I'm not discounting power creep, it is a overhaul after all. But this is a thing that may eventually be called for if we start getting multiple augments for one ability. In the end it's also to get away from meta as well as putting certain mods to actual use

 

[-SMG-Demiroach]

8 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

So, if I understand you, what you're suggesting is for us to mod 5 things on each Warframe; The Warframe itself, and each of the 4 seperate abilities?

Could work, but I'd suggest that we then only have 6 slots for each of those setups (+1 when you account for aura/augment, and +1 more when accounting for Exilus). Otherwise, we'd see a whole new level of powercreep. I mean, even with me suggesting it to just 6 slots per "page", it'd STILL be a massive amount of slots regained.

On the hypothesis that you don't mod all slots for abilities right now, but also some survivability, we have 10 slots to use (8 normal + aura + exilus). With this, also assuming that each ability is modded the same way in each page (just for the sake of the argument, as seperate modding of abilities might not change much how we'd mod each individually), even with just 6 modslots per page, we'd have...

15 modslots!

6 warframe modslots + 1 aura slot + 1 exilus slot + 6 ability modslots (on each ability) + 1 augment slot (on each ability page).

But if you count each of those pages individually (as some Warframes would greatly benefit from having seperated modding for each ability), you'd get...

36 modslots! And that's WITH a reduction in modslots. As per your original suggestion with 8 basic modslots on each page, that'd go up to a total of 46(!) modslots.

So... I hardly think anything like this would happen. Even if it actually would be interesting from a design PoV.

It's a suggestion, but we already added this feature for exhalted weapons, it's not a stretch to see it applied for the other abilities

 

[ranks21]

mods like prime sure footed and diamond skin  are fool's gold mod, where as a new player youll more likely have those in your build because of their description and thinking they'll be useful. weve moved past those early when you find out they are utter garbage and not really useful in higher levels in the star chart and above.

we had diversity in modding in the early days, when abilities were mods and you build the way you play a frame. now its a convoluted mess of mashing 1-3 buttons on some to most frames just to get the same results of past glorious times of this game. nothing is actually straight forward anymore leaving newer players more and more confused when it should be simple.

there are mods that you put in your builds that makes jobs like spy mission a bit more tolerable, but you are also lowering your chance of surviving if you are new at it. (every player wants to feel/be a badass ninja)

the meta will always be there  its that one thing that keeps warframe going, and if you take the meta away youll also be diminishing its players.

this is a forever beta game,  shamefully, its the meta excuse used when stuff are questioned and challenged<< see the original meta "beta"

[peterc3]

1 minute ago, -SMG-Demiroach said:

Understandable, and i have thought about it myself, but the game and gameplay itself has been limited to meta, creativity has come to a standstill when it comes to particular gameplay, this is why i called it an overhaul, and a big step into changing the way we deal with abilities and diversity of builds and creativity

How does this change the meta? This isn't forcing people to change anything but adding more slots. People still aren't going to use every ability, even though you've given them the means to maximize the effectiveness of all of them.

The unintended consequence of doing something like this is that you would absolutely need 4 copies of every ability affecting mod. That would go over well. Same with needing way more Forma.

Here's the ultimate issue: there will always be a metagame. There will always be the best set of mods to put on all the new slots you've added. You didn't propose any sort of counterbalance. You said the Augments would be like Stances. Doesn't much have to do with Melee, but they do add mod capacity, which is rather telling. This requires no more creativity than the level you find lacking now.

Just now, -SMG-Demiroach said:

It's a suggestion, but we already added this feature for exhalted weapons, it's not a stretch to see it applied for the other abilities

It made sense for them. It was not a signal that they were going to throw out any sort of balance and have every ability modded separately.

[-SMG-Demiroach]

 

3 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

How does this change the meta? This isn't forcing people to change anything but adding more slots. People still aren't going to use every ability, even though you've given them the means to maximize the effectiveness of all of them.

The unintended consequence of doing something like this is that you would absolutely need 4 copies of every ability affecting mod. That would go over well. Same with needing way more Forma.

Here's the ultimate issue: there will always be a metagame. There will always be the best set of mods to put on all the new slots you've added. You didn't propose any sort of counterbalance. You said the Augments would be like Stances. Doesn't much have to do with Melee, but they do add mod capacity, which is rather telling. This requires no more creativity than the level you find lacking now.

It made sense for them. It was not a signal that they were going to throw out any sort of balance and have every ability modded separately.

It's about diversity of meta, and i did mention the syncing of abilities, we are now seeing more players use different abilities instead of casting one over and over again, i mentioned stances as an examples, and like the exalted blade have its own stance that adds nothing to the mod pool i never expected abilities to add either, the idea is that they are interchangeable with other augments that may arize, so i don't think that the idea being telling would be a accurate description. There will always be a meta, but now there can be an increased type of meta per frame, with more frame types being used for multiple situations instead of sticking to frame type per mission type.

We also do not use 2 of the same types of mods for exalted weapons, why would we need two for abilities, though it could be considered a limiting factor if people would want to approach it that way though i do not see it as such. 

I also do not see a reason why forma is an issue, there are people that have formaed their frames over and over again and it's not too time consuming to do it for abilities

I also think that it may have made sense for them to make exalteds separate, but i don't see the reason for it, there was no need to do it, but since they have done it, doesn't mean they can't do it for other abilities either, i have always thought that chromatic blade should have at least showed up as a stance instead of still showing exalted blade

 

[Maicael]

If something like this were to be done, then it should be made to where mods that affect the same stat (i.e. Intensify, Blind Rage, Transient Fortitude) are limited to only allowing one to be chosen, similar to how you can't put the regular version and primed version of a mod on at the same time.

Really I think preventing stat stacking should have been put into place a long time ago. I think Corrupted mods were their idea of doing this without actually preventing a mod from being added, but it doesn't seem to work all that well.

[-SMG-Demiroach]

1 minute ago, Maicael said:

If something like this were to be done, then it should be made to where mods that affect the same stat (i.e. Intensify, Blind Rage, Transient Fortitude) are limited to only allowing one to be chosen, similar to how you can't put the regular version and primed version of a mod on at the same time.

Really I think preventing stat stacking should have been put into place a long time ago. I think Corrupted mods were their idea of doing this without actually preventing a mod from being added, but it doesn't seem to work all that well.

That may be a good idea and prevention of power creep, where all ability mods could have negative stats aswell