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Robust In-Game Creation System | Make The Content That You Want| Potential Reaches End-Game Level Content|Potential Solution To Content Drought|


nokinoks
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A robust Sandbox creation system built within WF that will allow Creators to make maps, change enemy values, enemy AI, put challenges, implement restrictions and allow people an outlet for their ideas. This idea was based on an idea of a Creation Engine for WF (see "previously" section) but with better chances of being implemented due to less challenges.

 

What you can do:

Build your own game:

The community is split over going ham with Warframe power killing everything or wanting a more paced out gameplay using skill. BOTH are good, BOTH can be Warframe, now you can have the tools to make it. Do you want a gameplay where good AI shines? How about a mode where there's no respite, there's no salvation and only your bullets can save you? You think more can be done with the Operators? A truly stealth gameplay mechanic where slow is smooth and smooth is fast? How about just making enemies smart enough so that they can actually deal with invisibility? The tools are here, and you can do whatever you want with them.

 

Build a demo:

You think that things will be better IF only this and that? Now you can do it, change a value or two, ask the community to play your mode and ask for feedback. We do have a good community, but it's difficult when you can only tell and not show, now you can show. 

 

Superior Simulacrum:

Simulacrum right now is pretty bare, it doesn't even have proper flooring 😐 With this you can try out builds, mods, and frames.

 

Make Bosses:

Warframe lacks Bosses. There are few bosses, most of the star chart bosses are practically the same. Kela de Shoulders is good alright, Vey Kek is just tedious especially for people playing on a potato due to Earth's foliage BUT it is at least kind of different, Infested (forgot the name, where you get Nekros) and Jordis and finally the Eidolons. Others who weren't mentioned  are practically similar to each other that they aren't really worth mentioning. 

Now you can make your own bosses! Change values and change AI so bosses act the way you think a boss should act. You are annoyed with invincibility phases? Make them go berserk instead but take more damage. Tigris Prime killing everything in one shot? Make the boss smart so that it attacks those with high damage first! With all these tools, you'll be able to go bonkers anyway you want.

 

IMPORTANT FOR THIS TO HAPPEN:

One, we must accept that all game mode done here BELONGS TO DE.

If they choose to adapt a game mode, they are LEGALLY AND MORALLY within their rights. Make only what you want to give!

Two, not just game modes but everything inside it as well! You made art here? It belongs to DE, you made values and changes that DE adopted, it belongs to DE. You made that awesome boss that the community can't get enough of? It belongs to DE. As stated above, only make what you want to freely GIVE.

 

PREVIOUSLY

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1020009-creation-engine-might-be-a-possible-solution-to-warframes-current-state/

Above link is the original post, due to the great insight everyone provided, I have decided to post an updated idea instead of just continuing with the thread since I don't think everyone is reading the update.

As I have previously stated, most of us agree that there isn't really a "lack of content" per se, but a lack in variety of it. The community is also split in the middle where half of the people want challenge and yearn for a gameplay that prioritizes map awareness, strategy, skill, balance and teamwork and the other half wants to go ham and kill level 300 Juggernauts coming from left and right and there is absolutely nothing wrong with both gameplay. So a possible solution is this, to have a system where you can make whatever you want.

So what's in the link above is an idea of a different server where Creators can make their own Content and Players can choose what they want to try and eventually, if a content gets enough buzz and love then it is adapted into the main game. This will allow the community to basically make what they want to and help DE in a way by doing part of the work. There's a lot of challenges though as pointed out by a lot of people (and I welcome such insights, now this idea has been improved thanks to the community) and they are as follows:

 

  • There's a technical challenge of how things will work. One, DE will have to fork out for a new server. Two, whatever Content will be allowed there will have to be downloaded by everyone for it to work unless there's a whole different system for it and then we go back to problem one where DE will have to fork out a lot of resources for this and I agree that the more resources are being risked, the less the chance this will be implemented.
  • Legal difficulties arise, what if there's a popular game mode? Who owns it? What about monetization?

Those two are the biggest challenges why a separate Creation Engine can't be implemented or has a very low chance of being implemented, but through the community feedback, this idea became what you see here.

Edited by nokinoks
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1 minute ago, Me.Church said:

Makes me think that this is what the previous "kingpin" system should be turned into. It's hella ambitious though.

It is very ambitious, (less than the previous suggestion though thanks to feedback) BUT I think since the community is split in the middle right now and there's also this phenomenon where people who have finished the star chart sorta forgets how it is for new players, I think this is a really good solution that will benefit the community as a whole. We already have a very weak version of it, which is the DOJO obstacle course creation system, but that's very shallow and limited to the clan. And it's an obstacle course, I've never went online thinking "hey, you know what would hit the spot? An obstacle course!"

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I like the idea and I think it would be awesome to see community creations get added into the game. DE already does this with the steam skins. It would be pretty nifty for DE to run contests, or even to just have the community vote on their favorite player-created content, and then see it officially added into the game (obviously after it has been officially tweaked by DE).

DE is working hard, and having player contributions like this would both ease the pressure on devs and help with player retention. And the community is very passionate about this game, I'm sure they could crank out some pretty impressive stuff.

Edited by IntheCoconut
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54 minutes ago, IntheCoconut said:

I like the idea and I think it would be awesome to see community creations get added into the game. DE already does this with the steam skins. It would be pretty nifty for DE to run contests, or even to just have the community vote on their favorite player-created content, and then see it officially added into the game (obviously after it has been officially tweaked by DE).

DE is working hard, and having player contributions like this would both ease the pressure on devs and help with player retention. And the community is very passionate about this game, I'm sure they could crank out some pretty impressive stuff.

Yes, I feel like this is something that can work really great with Warframe simply because DE is DE. This will also, in a way, tell DE what people want since they basically vote with their time spent and maybe DE can even have more time to focus on fixing bugs patching major things like how Archwing still needs a lot of S#&$ for it to work instead of just churning out content. 

It's even possible that players can "fix" archwing so that it's not tedious anymore and actually fun! 

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None of this would be hands off, so how would it help ease DE's workload and not add to it?

5 minutes ago, nokinoks said:

It's even possible that players can "fix" archwing so that it's not tedious anymore and actually fun! 

Your proposal is that players have full access to the game's mechanics? This is supposed to be less challenging for DE?

This all amounts to Warframe modding. Not just simple stuff, but deep mechanical things, how enemy AI works, not just existing but new boss mechanics, damage stats on weapons, etc.

This isn't Skyrim.

1 hour ago, Me.Church said:

Makes me think that this is what the previous "kingpin" system should be turned into. It's hella ambitious though.

Given the Kingpin system doesn't currently exist, there's nothing for it to turn into.

And this all comes down to drops. Players cannot be trusted to make both the mission content and pick the drops it gives. It is one thing to have players make a custom mission, another to allow them to make more work for DE to track down some built in exploit to throw tons of resources at people who run the mission.

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3 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

Your proposal is that players have full access to the game's mechanics? This is supposed to be less challenging for DE?

This all amounts to Warframe modding. Not just simple stuff, but deep mechanical things, how enemy AI works, not just existing but new boss mechanics, damage stats on weapons, etc.

This isn't Skyrim.

What's wrong with Warframe modding if it's done in-game with the Tools DE allowed for use? It's regulated by DE, everything inside and made with it is owned by DE, what's wrong with that? It's an investment, yes, but if it's done then content comes from it, both for creators and players.

"This isn't Skyrim" so what? Skyrim wasn't "Skyrim" until Bethesda gave people the tools for it, how does DE giving players agency to create content FOR the game hurt Warframe? Regarding the loot, to me I think there shouldn't be any. I think a good replacement is with points and the points can be converted into something based on how successful your Content is and how many minutes you've spent inside the Content if you are a player and not a Creator. 

 

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1 minute ago, nokinoks said:

Regarding the loot, to me I think there shouldn't be any.

Nobody will play anything connected to this, then. If there is nothing shiny connected to playing something in the game, the most vocal people will just call it trash and whine.

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1 minute ago, peterc3 said:

Nobody will play anything connected to this, then. If there is nothing shiny connected to playing something in the game, the most vocal people will just call it trash and whine.

It depends on how DE handles it. In the end they can just give void traces or something but that's not a topic to shoot the whole thing down for. Loot can be better handled when we know which mechanisms are in place to handle exploits. I'd still play this even without loot because the main purpose of this is for the player to have fun the way they want to have fun. The community is split and defines fun in different ways and no definition is wrong. Now there's a tool that allows you to go ham on what you want.

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I second this motion. 

It'd be nice to create maps that actually look like ships. 

I've long been waiting to make a survival variant where tenno have to act like a bunch of gremlins and keep the enemy occupied, lest the infiltrator gets captured and the mission shifts to a rescue mission.

Player created, sensible settings would be a nice side-quest from the obstacle course speed runs. Plot and problem solve your way through a level, and the map helps you navigate b/c it's actually functional, familiar, and fantastic.

Altering enemy AI would be a needed touch as well. None of the factions act like basic infantry training has been a thing since the fall of the orokin empire. 

Lastly, can we get a true, free plaecment dojo creation mode?! None of this janky S#&$ where catwalks push each other out of the way when trying to build a deck!

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30 minutes ago, Ekemeister said:

I've long been waiting to make a survival variant where tenno have to act like a bunch of gremlins and keep the enemy occupied, lest the infiltrator gets captured and the mission shifts to a rescue mission.

Where have you been all my life?!

This kinda sounds good if done right, I'd definitely prefer this to a capture becoming exterminate because DE wants you to spend 5 minutes per mission. Maybe even something where the infiltrator "tags" a portion of the map and you need to clear not only the enemies but the area so they can keep on snooping rendering you unable to get anything there lest jeopardizing the mission. Coming in with the mentality that "this can turn into a rescue mission" is also welcome since at least you know that there's a real possibility that it can happen and you know the parameters WHY it happens rather than something seemingly random.

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I also want to make a  variant assassinate mission. Where tenno must investigate the target, get betrayers/allies to side, acquire a temp base of ops and last minute supplies, avoid counterforces and cpuntermeasures, and launch a final sortie to remove the target!

Follow a red-herring and the setup could be crappy: try sneaking a valkyr accross a mob of grineer papparazzi to bag polotical target!

Maybe tenno choose unwisely and the informant triple crosses the squad to see his lover one last time. 

Or that Loki is just plain noob and all the careful planning becomes utter bedlam in a rush to brain the mark before he's safely tucked away in a panic room. 

Other fun complications can include multiple ways that the job can go right. Do you sabotage the target's shuttle so it disintegrates upon rentry? Does that grineer dna stabilizer tank get "new solution" before this special spa visit? A Kayla de Thayme Arena roster mixup? Or do you know people, hm...? Do some syndicates absolutely, positively need someone killed overnight, and is steel meridian hustling favors into a night club "to handle some business"? No tenno, ordis is not suggesting x-pills to cure depression.

How do you and your squad choose amongst all the options? Do you even compromise? Or does the job breakdown into a rat race for glory?

Bruh... Mission creation done right and I'll be playing warframe for another five years yet. 

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2 hours ago, Ekemeister said:

I also want to make a  variant assassinate mission. Where tenno must investigate the target, get betrayers/allies to side, acquire a temp base of ops and last minute supplies, avoid counterforces and cpuntermeasures, and launch a final sortie to remove the target!

This is what this mechanism is for! If powerful enough, you can absolutely go ham customizing the current vanilla star chart missions into a great experience instead of one that is run of the mill!

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I can imagine the game moddable because a lot of coop online game has some kind of moddability until it's not mess the core game. The reason here is the game is online and everyone using the same build and if someone make a content like a map that can hurt the others whom download it " in this manner DE integrating into the game " which could be bad for them because it increase the workload. Single player games better for modding aspect because if you make a mod then it is your own risk and your own copy risked with mess up the core mechanics. Unless you have a game which have a built in modding tool like planet explorers. Warframe went the opposite and centralized and currently there is no option to beign moddable only if someone know how to code, make models, design everything etc. And then they need a different copy of the game where they can use the dev builds but this means steal their property.

I am not against the modding but currently not possible and it makes more hard time to the devs fixing what players make " like tennogen " than make good. Only if the game called mount and blade or so there is a lot of possibilities but this is Warframe and the devs can only touch the game. We can just give them ideas only but if someone could make a single oriented warframe then go for it. Ask DE's permission then make a game which is moddable and can be used as a side part - " more sandbox " like version.

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I recently suggested something like this but got a lot of naysayers because I told there should be some kind of rewards, loot, for playing this. Which there should be, because it's a big undertaking for DE to implement something like this and that means players should have all the reasonable incentive to play it instead of farming other stuff. I might be wrong but I hold my stance in that.

In Warcraft 3, an old RTS game, you could create your own maps too. That gave the game so much more lifetime than it would have otherwise. I played a lot of custom maps there, different ingenious modes users had created and they were so much fun. There was even a custom map that spawned a whole new game genre, DOTA (defense of the ancients).

I think the biggest question DE has concerning this is, how can they monetize this, outside of drawing in many new paying customers. To which, you could make playing new maps cost platinum, to unlock them. And then there's also the question of verifying the integrity of the map and data storage, like where would you download these maps from. I don't really know if DE can handle that much data variables when they're having problems with riven data storage.

But those are problems worth solving, for both DE and the players. Because something like this could revolutionize the game.

edit: to the question of monetization, DE could make it so that people send them their best custom-made missions and DE choose the best from there to be patched into the game, with loot they may have modified to be reasonable. Players would then pay platinum to unlock this new map, like 10p, which is a lot for DE in the long run when everyone pays for it. And map creators would only get honorary mentions and maybe a button where you could donate resources and platinum and any tradeables and giftables to the map creator.

How does that sound?

Edited by BoarWarrior
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1 hour ago, BoarWarrior said:

DE could make it so that people send them their best custom-made missions and DE choose the best from there to be patched into the game, with loot they may have modified to be reasonable.

In other words, DE still has to curate it, which slows down the releases of content they develop themselves.

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3 minutes ago, Corvid said:

In other words, DE still has to curate it, which slows down the releases of content they develop themselves.

They could minimize their time spent curating it and maximise their profit, and it would create content a lot faster than if only DE created content because there would be more people creating content. Much more people. Free happy workers.

How to minimize the time spent curating: make limits in the editor, like what loot can be dropped so they don't have to curate that, and amount of spawns so people can't farm it. And make at least one version/mode in editor where you can have more spawns but less chance for loot per spawn. Automate it as much as possible and add some kind of auto debug tool or something like that, I'm not a tech wizard.

DE has great potential to make a lot of money with this in addition to making happy customers, all they need to do is to make a solid editor and get the legal content right unless I'm forgetting something.

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1 hour ago, GreeneLanterne said:

I can imagine the game moddable because a lot of coop online game has some kind of moddability until it's not mess the core game. The reason here is the game is online and everyone using the same build and if someone make a content like a map that can hurt the others whom download it " in this manner DE integrating into the game " which could be bad for them because it increase the workload. Single player games better for modding aspect because if you make a mod then it is your own risk and your own copy risked with mess up the core mechanics. Unless you have a game which have a built in modding tool like planet explorers. Warframe went the opposite and centralized and currently there is no option to beign moddable only if someone know how to code, make models, design everything etc. And then they need a different copy of the game where they can use the dev builds but this means steal their property.

I am not against the modding but currently not possible and it makes more hard time to the devs fixing what players make " like tennogen " than make good. Only if the game called mount and blade or so there is a lot of possibilities but this is Warframe and the devs can only touch the game. We can just give them ideas only but if someone could make a single oriented warframe then go for it. Ask DE's permission then make a game which is moddable and can be used as a side part - " more sandbox " like version.

It's sandbox, whatever you do inside the sandbox doesn't translate into the main game. 

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5 minutes ago, BoarWarrior said:

DE has great potential to make a lot of money with this in addition to making happy customers, all they need to do is to make a solid editor and get the legal content right unless I'm forgetting something.

I agree with this, this seems like an easy enough concept that I don't really understand why people are so opposed to the idea. I understand people being opposed to it, but not "so opposed" to it. 

One way to curate easier is to put a Point System and a Gating System. Gating system is similar to Arbitrations, you can't do Arbitrations unless you finish the whole Star Chart. We can do something similar to this, you can't MAKE content unless you are x or y. You can't CONSUME unless you are x or y. This way this doesn't change the beginning core experience for new players and they still have what DE serves. That is the Gating system. 

The Point System is something like, the more "likes" you have (let's just go with something like this for the sake of presenting this argument) for your creation, the more the built-in system rewards you with points and the more points you have the more tools you can use. So for example, you are only able to make maps. If you have enough points rewarded automatically, you can now change spawn points, then change enemy levels (at what level they start) then change AI, create custom scenarios etc... Until the point where you can make BIG content and DE has a team of Quality Assurance that is dedicated to helping out the players Creators of your ranking and then you will have a lot more freedom. 

YES if you get to a high rank, DE will have to spend "man power" but what is 5 people doing QA to 100 people making content?

To clarify, NO MAPS will have to be downloaded, these are all values (script) that is rendered in-game.

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1 minute ago, nokinoks said:

I agree with this, this seems like an easy enough concept that I don't really understand why people are so opposed to the idea. I understand people being opposed to it, but not "so opposed" to it. 

One way to curate easier is to put a Point System and a Gating System. Gating system is similar to Arbitrations, you can't do Arbitrations unless you finish the whole Star Chart. We can do something similar to this, you can't MAKE content unless you are x or y. You can't CONSUME unless you are x or y. This way this doesn't change the beginning core experience for new players and they still have what DE serves. That is the Gating system. 

The Point System is something like, the more "likes" you have (let's just go with something like this for the sake of presenting this argument) for your creation, the more the built-in system rewards you with points and the more points you have the more tools you can use. So for example, you are only able to make maps. If you have enough points rewarded automatically, you can now change spawn points, then change enemy levels (at what level they start) then change AI, create custom scenarios etc... Until the point where you can make BIG content and DE has a team of Quality Assurance that is dedicated to helping out the players Creators of your ranking and then you will have a lot more freedom. 

YES if you get to a high rank, DE will have to spend "man power" but what is 5 people doing QA to 100 people making content?

To clarify, NO MAPS will have to be downloaded, these are all values (script) that is rendered in-game.

In fact, QA doesn't necessarily even mean DE, we can make a layer where the first QA are also players. 

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Gating system seems necessary yes, so the players first experience the story. I'd say it should be behind all story content like all the quests. I know The Silver Grove can be a pain but it's a small price to pay to assure you experience the content DE created with love first and have no spoilers. How about that?

This kind of editor would with 99% chance give birth to a fansite that rated the maps with user ratings and where you could download them or their scripts from their server instead of using DE's server space. So that could solve itself.

DE could add two modes to the editor, a mode with no loot where you could add more spawns per time spent, and loot mode where you get half or 2/3 of the normal mission loot at most, with more limited spawns. If you add enough limiters to the editor and make the game automatically check the important things like amount of spawns per time and loot, you remove the need to curate it by humans. It would increase loading times, especially for loot missions, but it would also make it a smoother process for everyone involved. Plus you need the limiters to combat lag and exploits. Exploits which would not be seen with decreased loot and limiters, because what's the point of exploit if you get nothing out of it?

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46 minutes ago, BoarWarrior said:

Gating system seems necessary yes, so the players first experience the story. I'd say it should be behind all story content like all the quests. I know The Silver Grove can be a pain but it's a small price to pay to assure you experience the content DE created with love first and have no spoilers. How about that?

I quite agree with this. 

 

46 minutes ago, BoarWarrior said:

DE could add two modes to the editor, a mode with no loot where you could add more spawns per time spent, and loot mode where you get half or 2/3 of the normal mission loot at most, with more limited spawns.

Another way to do this is to make two sections, one is the Uncurated section that is automated and the other is the Curated section that DE checks and only a particular rank of Creators can submit Content to. Basically only the Curated section has loot and only DE can place what loot and where. Though I really think that Loot in this mode be focused on quality of life like relics and void traces. Something like 15 endo as a mission reward just seems S#&$ty compared to a lith relic even if I already have tons of relics. I think most people will play this NOT to farm anyway but to just experience it.

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9 hours ago, peterc3 said:

None of this would be hands off, so how would it help ease DE's workload and not add to it?

Your proposal is that players have full access to the game's mechanics? This is supposed to be less challenging for DE?

This all amounts to Warframe modding. Not just simple stuff, but deep mechanical things, how enemy AI works, not just existing but new boss mechanics, damage stats on weapons, etc.

This isn't Skyrim.

Given the Kingpin system doesn't currently exist, there's nothing for it to turn into.

And this all comes down to drops. Players cannot be trusted to make both the mission content and pick the drops it gives. It is one thing to have players make a custom mission, another to allow them to make more work for DE to track down some built in exploit to throw tons of resources at people who run the mission.

Exactly this.

DE would still have to be involved every step of the way...so all this would do is slow down their own development work. This is probably the single biggest reason that what OP proposes will never happen.

DE would never allow 3rd party content to be integrated into the main game...especially as the majority of it won't fit into what they have planned (I'm assuming).

Even assuming DE allowed 3rd party developers access to their source code (which would require NDAs and other legal stuff) I could only see them agreeing to mods being hosted on a separate server...so anything players did there would have no effect on their main game accounts.

 

I mean if someone developed a deathmatch / CTF mod, I'm sure the players who mourn the demise of Conclave would be happy...but then thats just part of the player base.

I really don't know why the OP is persisting with this idea, as the reasons its VERY unlikely to ever happen, were pointed out in his previous thread:

 

1. Mods would still have to be approved by DE (since its their intellectual property being used) - detracts from their own development work.

2. Mods can still take a long time to create, test, debug etc. Adding in the approval process time (which would be done on DE's schedule) means mods would still take a long time to get on the server. Still complaints about "content drought".

3. Are there people out there willing (and with the skills) to produce this content for free? Its very easy to say "let the community create stuff", but how many people are there among the forum users who could actually do this? Genuinely curious about this.

4. If modders want to be paid for their efforts (not unreasonable) they'd need to negotiate with DE...unless some pro-forma software development legal documents already exist. If someone creates a new game mod, using someone else's existing code, how does the payment system work?

5. Need to remember the majority of mods are created for fully-developed, single-person games...some of which are no longer actively supported by the studio. This is a "live" game, still under development. Very different situation.

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I would definitely try to create a tutorial mission that guides the players more or less to the slightly advanced parkour and tactics.

Or a puzzle house to solve puzzles and find switches by turning off the radar icon and 
you need to find the switches to open doors.

Maybe a newer vault challenge by putting up some kind of secret tunnel and booby traps.

 

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