Ember: Complete Assembly of Fundamental Designflaws

[Handstamp]

On 2018-10-24 at 4:31 AM, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

I feel as though fire damage is only 50% of the problem in Ember's case. Her other big issue is the abilities themselves that don't have other functions to help support said damage type (i.e. removing armor). As you already pointed out, Ember's abilities all essentially do the same things, so giving Ember stronger secondary effects to support the primary effect should dramatically improve her abilities.

She already has strong secondary effects. She's hands down the second strongest enemy debuffer in the game (she doesn't need to strip armour unless you're fighting level 200+ enemies) and has fantastic CC in the form of Firequake. The problem is unlike Banshee, who can easily take advantage of her own buffs, Ember is much more expensive to build for, awkward to use, REQUIRES at least two augments, and is an enourmous energy sink. With some QOL changes to her passive and WOF, she could easily be a fantasic frame, but atm she's encumbered with mechanics changes borne from both the playerbase and DE's misunderstanding of her abilities. 

@(XB1)Knight Raime Fully agree with you.

@Arcira Ember buffs teammates far FAR stronger than the current chroma ever could at the same power strength, because the additive fire damage she applies gets multiplied at the other end thanks to accellerant. In addition, Ember's additives scale off of the weapon's end damage and not off of the weapon's basd damage, meaning other players don't lose out on the full potential of buffs just because they aren't built quite right *cough*chroma*cough*

Edited October 27, 2018 by Handstamp

[ShortCat]

14 hours ago, Handstamp said:

Banshee's sonar spots DO stack

Ok, I take this one back, from further testing I could achieve 2 Sonar spots to stack, not more, which is plenty on its own. However, wacky Sonar spot indication still remains.

You present some interesting points about Ember, but I cannot support this statement:

15 hours ago, Handstamp said:

Ember is already a fantastic buffer and damage dealer with her first augment, second augment, and third ability

3 abilities and 2 Augments to achieve a competitive result is the definition of redundance. Then there are clunky applications of her buffs: Fireball cannot be cast on herself, Fireblast's damage buff is a tagged on bonus with horrible mechanics, especially if we consider DE is moving away from plane and linear tiles with PoE, Fortuna and upcomming Gas City tiles, it runs into a lot of troubles:
Buff works: https://imgur.com/BUcSnUM
Jump (not a double jump), and you lose the buff: https://imgur.com/r37yvg2
Just standing in the ring is also not enough: https://imgur.com/V4fk5rW
Most benefits come from Accelerant' debuff, and Ember has to debuff every single enemy to gain access to it, which is expensive. Practical application of all her buffs in a regular mission on top of possible combination into complex elements is another issue. All of this was covered in the OP.

29 minutes ago, Handstamp said:

she doesn't need to strip armour unless you're fighting level 200+ enemies

This is a bold statement.

[Arcira]

1 hour ago, Handstamp said:

@Arcira Ember buffs teammates far FAR stronger than the current chroma ever could at the same power strength, because the additive fire damage she applies gets multiplied at the other end.

My bad forgot about the changes to Chroma.

Nonetheless I just tested different setups and it turns out the difference isn´t that important in practice. I can´t selfbuff with Ember but Fire Blast is a good alternative since elemental buffs stack additive with eachother according to wiki.

Weapon: Buzlok (100% critchance) (Serration, Heavy Caliber, Splitt Chamber, Vital Sense, Point Strike, Infected Clip, Stormbringer, Riven with multishot and critchance)

Target: Corrupted Heavy Gunner lv 100

Ember (199% power strength) 11 Fire Rings (550% Heat buff) = 1514 damage

Chroma (199% power strenght) Vex Armor (547% damage buff) = 1638 damage

As you can see they are quite equal but the difference in effort is substatial.

Edited October 27, 2018 by Arcira

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Handstamp:

, REQUIRES at least two augments

Why though? Firequake makes the chance a guarantee, in a range where it's able to hit enemies multiple times.

You might as well build for more strength, what would raise its innitial Cc and eather raise your buff further OR make it unnecessary for the same results... what would give you more building varriety.

[ShortCat]

3 hours ago, 000l000 said:

Now let me explain you something basic, there are rules in this kind of places and tell someone he has to respect them hence not insulting other people (just like you did too) isn't trolling, it's only called respect and education.

I am curious, how I may have offended you exactly? That I said you had only 20 gameplay hours on Ember? Which is actually true: https://imgur.com/yTnXHOa
Or that heat procs are not as good CC as you advertise? Which is also true, considering your exaggerated claims. Troll is a perfect summary.

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

13 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Why though? Firequake makes the chance a guarantee, in a range where it's able to hit enemies multiple times.

You might as well build for more strength, what would raise its innitial Cc and eather raise your buff further OR make it unnecessary for the same results... what would give you more building varriety.

Other skills don't need augments to function. And the keyword there is "In range" 

WoF has one of the smallest ranges in the game, with a target cap on enemies and only hit a certain amount of targets. Even more so, it costs a mod slot with the augment. Two depending on the build. We've have this conversation before. You need to understand that augments that are 95% of the time required for a skill to be good, just should have the ability reworked to incorporate the skill. Also ember should either lose the target limit cap, or have longer range.  

If you could install a single augment on a warframe without using a mod slot, it would be fine. Or if you could extend the duration of Ember's stuns. (You can't).

It occur to you, that after the umpteempth ember rework page, with constant other frames outdoing her, she could use a touch up. Like the one Nyx is getting, that sounds amazing btw.

 

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 11 Stunden schrieb (PS4)UltraKardas:

Other skills don't need augments to function. And the keyword there is "In range" 
 

They keyword to what? Automated Cc that's ideal for melee range? That's seperated from her other 3 abilities that all have a kinda Cc in different ranges?

WoF doesn't need an augument to function eather. It doesn't change its range, it allows building for more range what doesn't essencially go well with her buff, which boostd the fire damage and thus the procc rate of a Cc setting status type.

Maybe focusing on the one ability with the lowest range just isn't the way to build her right now? I mean the fact that the communitys oppinion about her is split into those that say that her Cc is unrelyable and those that consider this statement a joke and say that her kit is designed to stunlock entire battlefields gives you a hint.

Edited October 28, 2018 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 hour ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

They keyword to what? Automated Cc that's ideal for melee range?

I know where you're coming from, my friend, but think about it in the context here; CC in melee range is absolutely terrible in comparison to the CC she had at full range before.

Now, I'm not a huge Ember fan or detractor, I can take her to anywhere on the Star Chart and do as well with her as needed to finish missions, but even I admit that the range cut to World on Fire was a nerf to her sustainable CC.

Fire Blast's knock-back and expanding ring of Status only goes 15m, and no matter how good the stagger on Accelerant is, it's never actually long enough once you get to the point where enemies can hit hard enough to seriously hurt you with single or double hits (not one-shot, no, but still, that can hurt enough that the next enemy will finish you off).

She can handle quite a bit, yes, but her CC did take a significant knock with the range nerf on World on Fire.

What's important about that isn't so much the loss of it. As you say, CC in melee range is actually pretty good when you're run-and-gunning and hit a sharp corner where, normally, you'd get torn apart by the enemies there, but with Fire Quake, they're all falling over as you approach.

No, the important thing is that Ember doesn't have anything else. She doesn't have any defense apart from CC. And yeah, some other frames have that problem too, but those frames are, almost exclusively, either ten times more efficient at applying it, or have mechanically superior effects from the casts. The other frames have abilities that cause the base CC to last many times longer than Ember's for the same energy, or they have the ability to apply and then re-apply CC with the same cast without extra cost.

When a frame relies on CC to stay alive, that CC had better be effective. Not two cases of the same type of short-term CC and a radial knock-down type that's only melee range after a few seconds of use.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb Thaylien:

I know where you're coming from, my friend, but think about it in the context here; CC in melee range is absolutely terrible in comparison to the CC she had at full range before.

Is it? Like 2,5 enemies per second within a 140m diameter was anywhere near viable to begin with.

For the range it operates in, it's viable now. And definitly more relyable then it used to be since you actually have controll over what you Cc.

It wasn't her ace in high levels due to the growing spawn rate of enemies. Anything more then low level spawns left her vulnerable.. and we all should know what her meta was due to that.

Edited October 28, 2018 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Birdframe_Prime]

Just now, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Is it? Like 2,5 enemies per second within a 140m diameter was anywhere near viable to begin with.

For the range it operates in, it's viable now. And definitly more relyable then it used to be since you actually have controll over what you Cc.

Actually, according to DE, yeah it was.

One of the reasons they actually stated when looking at the change was that players spent large amounts of time not actually moving and letting the CC do its job.

When enemies were in range of World on Fire, they were also in range of Accelerant, so the occasional stun, plus the damage buff, mixed in with Fire Quake was apparently (and this is according to them) able to completely negate the approach of enemies to a location given their normal pathing methods.

Apparently one of the things mentioned was that other frames can do that too, but that Ember wasn't supposed to.

So yeah, the range nerf was genuinely to do with both removing the players' ability to run through a mission with high Range on and never have to see an enemy (which people did at low level so much it was surprising even to my cynical butt) and also at removing Ember's ability to AFK CC with Fire Quake.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 11 Minuten schrieb Thaylien:

Actually, according to DE, yeah it was.

One of the reasons they actually stated when looking at the change was that players spent large amounts of time not actually moving and letting the the damage  do its job.

But what do i know. It's not like i've heard that her meta has been low level afk killing like a million times during my entire playtime.

 

Or wait, i did.

Edited October 28, 2018 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Birdframe_Prime]

39 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

But what do i know. It's not like i've heard that her meta has been low level afk killing like a million times during my entire playtime.

Who said anything about just being low level? Of course that was normal, but no, people were literally using her as the AFK CC with teams for as long as they could go. I could name and shame several players that would run Warframe on a laptop, with Firequake built Embers sitting in the corner, literally only using the CC at max-range to ensure that they were never swarmed while they farmed.

All I'm saying is that yeah, World on Fire was actually effective CC. Now it's only low-range CC.

While that is viable still, it's not what it was. By comparison. By a long way. I made sure I pointed that out.

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

-Joins arbitration mission. Ember as host. Ember dies within 45 seconds. Host quits... Loading.... Loading...-

 

On 2018-10-28 at 6:55 AM, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

But what do i know. It's not like i've heard that her meta has been low level afk killing like a million times during my entire playtime.

 

Or wait, i did.

Maybe you need to get over low level missions. And take a look at Warframe's direction. First Raids, then Sorties added higher level missions, now Arbitration. She was good in low level missions, like any frame can be. Do anything serious, and she's useless. Almost like people want Ember to perform better in high level missions. Which is why this exact topic comes up every 2-3 months with people dissatisfied how weak, and redundant her kit is nowadays. 

Casually outperforming Ember as basically any frame. Since Ember is completely defenseless against an arbitration Drone... Can't CC and low range. Only option is killing Drones before they get close, otherwise hiding in a corner. 


 

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

On 2018-10-28 at 4:23 AM, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

They keyword to what? Automated Cc that's ideal for melee range? That's seperated from her other 3 abilities that all have a kinda Cc in different ranges?

WoF doesn't need an augument to function eather. It doesn't change its range, it allows building for more range what doesn't essencially go well with her buff, which boostd the fire damage and thus the procc rate of a Cc setting status type.

Maybe focusing on the one ability with the lowest range just isn't the way to build her right now? I mean the fact that the communitys oppinion about her is split into those that say that her Cc is unrelyable and those that consider this statement a joke and say that her kit is designed to stunlock entire battlefields gives you a hint.

You want automated CC, there's a thing called Molecular Prime with a 100m+ max range that you press once, and an entire interception mission is on lockdown. No target cap there. 

And WoF does need an augment to function. You need firequake for her to function as a CC frame otherwise it's soft CC and can be ignored. 33% chance to make a burn proc won't deter any mission with ancient healers. 

Um... WoF shrinks over time just fyi.... The range does change, shrinking to half its size. Its inferior to Miasma in every way, as Miasma is literally Ember's kit just optimized. Her kit boosting the damage of Miasma, stunning All enemies in range upon cast. (Not 5, not 2.5. All.) 

The community isn't split. There's a reason that Ember has one of the lowest play rates. People like you are just in denial. Saryn, Octavia, do ember's job 100x better then she ever could. With much larger range.

Want proof? an arbitration with a 300% Ember won't make a slight difference. an Octavia with a 300% Str bonus will trivialize everything in 50 meter radius. As well as buffing everyone near Octavia massively.. 

+300% Power Strength Saryn? Frost? Chroma? Nidus? Literally no point of Ember existing in the match.

[ShortCat]

8 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

And WoF does need an augment to function. You need firequake for her to function as a CC frame otherwise it's soft CC and can be ignored. 33% chance to make a burn proc won't deter any mission with ancient healers. 

By the way, knock down from Firequke augment is considered a status effect and will be negated by Ancient Healers.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 14 Stunden schrieb (PS4)UltraKardas:

. Which is why this exact topic comes up every 2-3 months with people dissatisfied how weak, and redundant her kit is nowadays. 
 

Must also be the reason they're argumenting how flawless she has been in higher levels simply because of her range, what's obviously a lie. People hardly make or comment these threads to make her better fit for higher levels when asking for WoF to be reverted, what this allways boils down to. Op himself made it to complain about fire status, what basicly belongs somewhere else since it's more of an issue with damage 2.0.

I would prefer her alpha ultimate as well, that fire clad ability that had no range whatsoever but a damage reduction and contact damage instead.. but is that what this is about? What any of these threads are?

Edited November 6, 2018 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

On 2018-11-06 at 3:52 AM, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Must also be the reason they're argumenting how flawless she has been in higher levels simply because of her range, what's obviously a lie. People hardly make or comment these threads to make her better fit for higher levels when asking for WoF to be reverted, what this allways boils down to. Op himself made it to complain about fire status, what basicly belongs somewhere else since it's more of an issue with damage 2.0.

I would prefer her alpha ultimate as well, that fire clad ability that had no range whatsoever but a damage reduction and contact damage instead.. but is that what this is about? What any of these threads are?

Flawless. Right. That's why every ember lasts 2-3 minutes in arbitration then leaves. Range plays a big factor in it. However... Ember's entire kit is redundant. Her ultimate ends up having the shortest range of any of her abilities. Shrinking to half the size of everything else, while accelerant has 20m. (larger then her base ultimate range.) 

While I think WoF would be better pre-nerf, I think she needs a complete overhaul. Accelerant and Fireblast are too similar and could be baked into one ability. WoF functioning as is, with a single digit target cap doesn't belong in a hordeshooter. Especially sinces its a lack luster CC ability that certain factions can just ignore. The damage her powers provide are immensely limited. 

[Wet_Tenties]

ember will nevcer be a competitive frame as long as she has WOF. She will always be the low level trash mob clearer cause if WOF scaled shed just promote bring energy regen for the fire chicken, press 4 and go eat a sandwich meta that noone but ember mains want.

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

On 2018-10-27 at 2:52 AM, Handstamp said:

 

@Arcira Ember buffs teammates far FAR stronger than the current chroma ever could at the same power strength, because the additive fire damage she applies gets multiplied at the other end thanks to accellerant. In addition, Ember's additives scale off of the weapon's end damage and not off of the weapon's basd damage, meaning other players don't lose out on the full potential of buffs just because they aren't built quite right *cough*chroma*cough*

Have to correct your false claims. No, Your info is not correct. Taking my 269% Chroma and Ember against corrupted heavy gunner, Chroma's full damage buff nearly killed every gunner in one shot. Using Ember's Full buffs, it took 3 full shots. And that is with Corrosive Procs reducing armor for her. Chroma's buff is 800% all damage, while Ember is is at max 300% fire damage and 6x fire damage. Far Stronger? You mean like needing 3x the shots, and 3x the energy? 

Ember is currently the most energy consuming warframe in the game for her buffs. (If you want the Max amount of damage buffed, its right around 500 energy at base cost. 6 rings, and accelerant.) Fireblast Frenzy will add fire damage, but you run the risk with it merging into another element. The only foolproof way for fire damage is shooting fireblast rings. 

Casting Sonar once was enough for me to kill every enemy in a single shot. 14x damage to all sources, will do that... not just 6x fire damage. 
This was with a tigris prime in all these tests. 

But, talk about not building right? Chroma's damage amplifying all damage too strict for you? 
 

[ShortCat]

Because there are 2 new topics about an Ember rework created every day, I think my thread deserves some attention again.

[DerGreif2]

I dont have much of experience with ember but she is a fire frame... fire = destruction ( also in her description). Why the hell should it be ok that a squishy caster fire frame is almost only good in <lv50 missions! She is a freaking caster that focus on destruction! Look at Gara, or Saryn, or Mesa, or Banshee or any other caster DPS frame. Why the hell is the best thing ember can do is to STUN enemys? Its more beneficial to kill the enemys with a weapon than to use the ability...

[Elementalos]

Ember kind of has the same problem Vauban does where too much of her kit real estate is spent on the same thing. Dunno why DE thought she needed so many abilities that just do fire damage in an AoE and apply status.

Beyond that though I think her biggest problem is more systemic than personal. Heat is just kind of a bad element, with a status proc that's worse than every other DoT in the game for no discernible reason and a damage spread that's not all that impressive.

[Mu_Gera]

Absolutely the way fire procs work is a fundamental problem with fire damage itself and in turn ember. It's balance is completely off when you release what the other dots can do along with being able to stack, and it's not like fires panick on proc is anything amazing enough to warrant it to not stack. Fixing that would get two birds in one stone.

 

The other glaring problems for ember is range only being useful for accelerant and wof, and accelerant not increasing the chance for fire damage to proc. The accelerant part being a good pair with the idea of making fire dot stack.

Edited January 4, 2019 by -Bv-Concarne

[Hellmaker2004]

Embers main problem is how Heat proc work and what they scale on. Sure she aint the most resistant frame out ther, and that would be ok if she worked. But as it stands right now she does not, this is not due to her numbers being bad. Her numbers are really good in theory, but because how Heat damage work it is a hit or miss situation.

 

Lets look at why.
Fireball @ 100% Power Strength on a direct hit.
Damage + (Damage × (Heat Mod Multiplier ÷ 2)) per tick for 7 ticks over 6 seconds
400 + (400 × (1 ÷ 2)) × 7 = 400 Initial damage and 1400 damage over 6 seconds for a total of 1800 damage.

Fireball @ 100% Power Strength on the five meter Area of Effect.
Damage + (Damage × (Heat Mod Multiplier ÷ 2)) per tick for 7 ticks over 6 seconds
150 + (((150 × (1 ÷ 2)) × 7) × 0.5)  = 150 Initial damage and on average 262.5 damage over 6 seconds for a total of 412.5 damage.
Here we are using on Average as the proc chance on AoE is only 50%.

Now lets look what happen if we however introduce the issue with heat.
Important to note this work the other way around as well, if they are somehow weak towards Heat the opposite is true.

Fireball @ 100% Power Strength on a direct hit. Enemy with 50% Damage resistance.
(Damage ÷ 2)  + (((Damage ÷ 2) ÷ 2) × (Heat Mod Multiplier ÷ 2)) per tick for 7 ticks over 6 seconds

Damage = 400 / 2 = 200, however the damage over time is also suffering from the damage reistance giving us.
(400 ÷ 2) + (((400 ÷ 2) ÷ 2) × (1 ÷ 2)) × 7 = 200 Initial damage and 350 damage over 6 seconds for a total of 550 damage.

Fireball @ 100% Power Strength on the five meter Area of Effect.Enemy with 50% Damage resistance.
Damage + (Damage × (Heat Mod Multiplier ÷ 2)) per tick for 7 ticks over 6 seconds
(150 ÷ 2)  + (((((150 ÷ 2) ÷ 2) × (1 ÷ 2)) × 7) × 0.5)  = 75 Initial damage and on average 65.625 damage over 6 seconds for a total of 140.625 damage.
Here we are using on Average as the proc chance on AoE is only 50%.

And this is only one of the problem with Ember / Heat procs.
Another issue is that Heat procs do not stack, heat procs do not reset the crowd control animation / effect, if it procs while the unit is already in the animation. This mean that you can not refresh it on someone who is crowd controled by fire. And a lot of mobs are immune to the crowd control effect.

The last point and this one is both good and a bad depending if you know how to use it.

If you refresh Burning on a mob the duration of the old proc is extended. This mean that if you have a foe burning for 1 damage every second for 6 seconds, and you refresh it with a 5000 heat damage proc. The mob will still only suffer 1 damage every second for 6 seconds. The other side of the coin is that this works both ways, so if a mob is suffering from 5000 damage every second for 6 seconds, and you refresh it with 1 heat damage proc, the 5000 damage every second for 6 seconds will be refreshed.

Edited January 5, 2019 by Hellmaker2004
Added Fireball AoE with Armor.

[IamQwerty]

I find it hard to play Ember without Firequake on. She's so squishy, that the knockdown is the only good way to not get one-shotted (exaggeration) at higher levels.