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Armor & Armor removal 2.0 concept idea


(PSN)Silenceform
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Please read everything carefully before you post because everything in this concept is important information.

 

Armor reduce damage taken only to shields or to health; it can't reduce damage to both at the same time.

When aiming at players or enemies that have armor on shields, they will have their shields bar displayed in dark blue and will become light blue when their armor is removed.

A flat amount of armor is removed when you inflict any status effects to the enemy and vice versa. The quantity of armor removed is based on the current armor of the enemy/warframe, ignoring temporary armor buffs from abilities and arcanes. The higher the armor is, the more it gets reduced.

Now that all damage types can remove armor, Corrosive status effect needs to be changed for a more appropriate usage overall. Magnetic status effect is slightly less powerful now that armor can apply to shields. These changes might be a buff or a nerf depending on the situation.

Corrosive status effect change : Increase damage taken from all sources by 25% for 6 seconds.

Magnetic status effect change : Reduces the target's current shields and maximum shield capacity by 50% ( was 75% ) for 4 seconds.

A critical strike ignore 50% of the enemy's global armor. This change makes weapons that have a high critical strike chance rate with a low status chance rate to be more effective against enemies with a lot of armor.

Admiting that these changes are accepted by DE, they will have to change a lot of stats from enemies and warframes as well in order to maintain balance in the whole game. This concept might change a lot of things for Warframe in a good way.


If you think this concept is a failure, then please explain precisely why.

 

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This idea is a failure because it will cause another year of content drought for something that may or may not please the community in any way whatsoever. Re-balancing the game is a hard thing, if you want something this drastic then you will have to prepare to receive no updates for a real long time. At the same time people will be pissed at this because the current armor mechanics are so deeply engraved in the combat system, your suggestion would basically mean "Everyone is gonna have to learn how to play Warframe again from scratch."

How about no, yea?

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So a few thoughts:

1. I do think a number of people would like something to be done about armour, at least for the highest levels, but I doubt it requires such a huge rehash. Something very simple like a damage reduction cap of 95% (a little under L100 I think?) could do wonders. I feel that's about the point where the idea of Grineer as tanks, Corpus as offense* starts breaking down due to both factions brushing up against one-shot territory.

*Which need not be the case: it's just the result of armour and health being potent and prevalent compared to shields. One could buff shields in some way(s) to put them closer in line with armour, at which point neither faction is really tankier or more offensively capable than the other (assuming ideal builds for each faction).

2. I'm not sure what the point is to having general status effects strip armour. One of the "problems" of armour is that it gives a slant toward status weapons, what with Corrosive being a thing. This particular change doesn't really alter that fact.

3. The "critical ignores x% armour" doesn't seem too horrible in principle (depending on what "x" is) since it only expands the list of viable options, but I don't see why that couldn't be a thing on its own if you're aiming to bring crit weapons on par with status weapons for anti-armour use. As mentioned in 2: globalizing Corrosive doesn't really change that particular slant.

Overall, it feels like you're trying to change a lot and I can't help but feel it's over-complicated. What's your goal with these changes? Making shields more viable? Making crit weapons better? Improving Tenno survivability overall? What scope are you concerning, e.g. sorties, arbitrations, ESO? And are you sure, for whatever you're trying to do, you can't accomplish the same thing with something simpler?

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Honestly, all they need to do is remove armor scaling.  Since health scales automatically, having armor as a consistent value will keep multiplying the effective health gain per level at a consistent rather than quadratic rate.  If it's flat then at least corrosive may not be as mandatory as it is currently in general play.

Edited by ReshyShira
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9 minutes ago, ReshyShira said:

Honestly, all they need to do is remove armor scaling.  Since health scales automatically, having armor as a consistent value will keep multiplying the effective health gain per level at a consistent rather than quadratic rate.  If it's flat then at least corrosive may not be as mandatory as it is currently in general play.

I think this would be better than having all status effects remove armor, because it should require less work for DE and less vain learning for players. OP had a good intention of bringing other status effects to par with corrosive, but this would just be much better in many ways.

And while I'm not really an endurance runner, I don't think removing enemy armor scaling would affect endurance runs much, other than make more modding choises and weapons viable for a longer amount of time in mission. For longer runs where you need more than a clip for a single enemy you'd have to resort to tricks anyhow. Like CL dagger and Octavia.

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On 2018-10-23 at 6:21 AM, (PS4)Silenceform said:

A critical strike ignore 50% of the enemy's global armor. This change makes weapons that have a high critical strike chance rate with a low status chance rate to be more effective against enemies with a lot of armor.

Hunter Munition's Slash Proc ignore 100% enemy armor and deal "True Damage"
It is 30% of a critical hit at max rank, Vigilante Armaments, Split Chamber, Argon Scope, Point Strike.

Now you test a high crit weapon with just these mods on level 120+ corrupted bombard with no corrosive, you will see how insanely powerful it gets.

 

On 2018-10-23 at 6:21 AM, (PS4)Silenceform said:

A flat amount of armor is removed when you inflict any status effects to the enemy and vice versa. The quantity of armor removed is based on the current armor of the enemy/warframe, ignoring temporary armor buffs from abilities and arcanes. The higher the armor is, the more it gets reduced.

Now that all damage types can remove armor.

 

This would just reduce the variation in builds, and effectively turned the 4 main elements and 6 secondary elements into 
one generic elemental. So the build variation no longer matters. 



My suggestions would be buff Puncture and Impact to be somewhat useful than Slash.

Puncture - On Proc ignores 50% of enemy armor (since the armor is compromised), the shot will deal higher than usual damage
Critical Proc ignores 100% enemy armor

Impact - On proc Ignore 50% shield and deal 50% damage directly to HP. 
Critical Proc ignore 100% shield and deal damage directly to HP.

Slash - On proc deals bleeding damage (not ignoring armor) [as currently it is]
Critical Proc ignore 50% armor and deal bleeding damage based on the number registered.

The Corpus uses high puncture weapons, it would be natural those weapons are adequate at battling
the Grineer as their primary target while designing weapons

The Grineer uses high impact weapons, it would be natural that the guns are capable of shredding corpus easily.
 

Edited by Ada_Wong_SG
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Il y a 11 heures, Tyreaus a dit :

I'm not sure what the point is to having general status effects strip armour. One of the "problems" of armour is that it gives a slant toward status weapons, what with Corrosive being a thing. This particular change doesn't really alter that fact.

I want to let the choice for players to select other builds than these two mandatory ones ( corrosive, viral/slash ) for high level enemies in order to offer more build diversity. I count on Damage 3.0 to bring this concept into a reality. I also want to point out that Corrosive element is being changed in my concept just in case you forgot about it.

Il y a 11 heures, Tyreaus a dit :

Making shields more viable?

Exactly. If Grineer and Corpus factions are fighting each others, the Grineers always win because their armor mitigate the power of Corpus weapons.

Il y a 13 heures, Tyreaus a dit :

Improving Tenno survivability overall?

Like your previous question, i also want to improve the survivability of Warframes that have more shields than health as defense. Shields builds can be viable if the right changes are made, i got some ideas but i can't explain them by writing; i need to draw things on a board so i can explain my ideas correctly.

Il y a 13 heures, Tyreaus a dit :

Making crit weapons better?

Exactly.

Il y a 13 heures, Tyreaus a dit :

What scope are you concerning, e.g. sorties, arbitrations, ESO?

Any missions where armored enemies start to get over 80% damage mitigation via armor.

Il y a 13 heures, Tyreaus a dit :

And are you sure, for whatever you're trying to do, you can't accomplish the same thing with something simpler?

It's not that complicated; it's just that when people can't understand the changes you try to make to improve the game, they are against it. It's the same for everything in life : if people can't understand what you are talking about or trying to explain, they can only fear you. I know my english is not the best but i do everything to explain what i want to say in order to possibly improve the game.

That being said the current state of the game is literally the simpler version of my concept : you can remove armor by using broken mods like Corrosive projection, Sharpened Claws and the utility of the current state of Corrosive status effect. If you just want to ignore it, take a weapon with high slash procs, use Hunter Munitions mod or perform a melee finisher. And to finish, shields are useless if enemies slash procs are too powerful or they use toxin damage via modifiers ( aura from Toxic Ancients and Enemy Elemental Enhancement from sorties ) or from weapons/ability on death ( Nox and Ghouls ). For warframes, shields will always be inferior to health until armor works for shields too, overshields is viable until the enemies are doing too much damage.

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15 hours ago, ReshyShira said:

Honestly, all they need to do is remove armor scaling.  Since health scales automatically, having armor as a consistent value will keep multiplying the effective health gain per level at a consistent rather than quadratic rate.  If it's flat then at least corrosive may not be as mandatory as it is currently in general play.

Ditto, we shouldn't rely on amping up armor for difficulty. Bullet sponges are not good difficulty 

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3 hours ago, (PS4)Silenceform said:

It's not that complicated; it's just that when people can't understand the changes you try to make to improve the game, they are against it. It's the same for everything in life : if people can't understand what you are talking about or trying to explain, they can only fear you. I know my english is not the best but i do everything to explain what i want to say in order to possibly improve the game.

In my case, I think, it's not a matter of understanding but parsimony. For example, you want to:

3 hours ago, (PS4)Silenceform said:

let the choice for players to select other builds than these two mandatory ones ( corrosive, viral/slash )

And you do this by fussing around with armour, making it apply to shields, and making Magnetic worse. But for that particular goal, you could get the same effect just by buffing Magnetic + Gas in some way.

It's a solution that's looking overly complicated (especially if there's parts you need to draw - that's not reassuring) and, because of its complexity and all the interlinking, there are a few points where it's missing goals. Just for example: since every status effect can strip armour, people are going to gravitate toward Viral + Slash, which has an effective 2x damage multiplier for health (meaning all Grineer and Infested), a DoT that bypasses shields, and bonus damage against health, all of which outstrips the 25% Corrosive damage bonus you proposed. This change doesn't affect a majority of the Corpus faction, so if Viral + Slash was good against them before, it's not going to be any worse now. And, while I'm a bit too tired to crunch average numbers right now, the fact that it also permanently removes armour could very well still make it better than crits despite the latter's 50% DR ignore.

P.S. you know, 80% DR is like, maybe around level 30 content. That's not really that high level...

18 hours ago, Ada_Wong_SG said:

My suggestions would be buff Puncture and Impact to be somewhat useful than Slash.

Puncture - On Proc ignores 50% of enemy armor (since the armor is compromised), the shot will deal higher than usual damage
Critical Proc ignores 100% enemy armor

Impact - On proc Ignore 50% shield and deal 50% damage directly to HP. 
Critical Proc ignore 100% shield and deal damage directly to HP.

Slash - On proc deals bleeding damage (not ignoring armor) [as currently it is]
Critical Proc ignore 50% armor and deal bleeding damage based on the number registered.

I like the idea and direction with Puncture and Impact. The only thing I don't like is that Slash is literally Toxin in this case, what with shield bypassing. Surely there's some other kind of unique quirk about Slash that could be implemented to differentiate the two...

Also, a few questions for clarity:

1. Is Impact meant to bypass armour? Your phrasing of dealing "damage directly to HP" seems to imply that (even though I'm betting you're just thinking of standard, unarmoured Corpus units).

2. Do Impact and Puncture retain their stagger / damage reduction components?

(Might be worth a separate thread, though...)

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9 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

Also, a few questions for clarity:

1. Is Impact meant to bypass armour? Your phrasing of dealing "damage directly to HP" seems to imply that (even though I'm betting you're just thinking of standard, unarmoured Corpus units).

2. Do Impact and Puncture retain their stagger / damage reduction components?

(Might be worth a separate thread, though...)

Impact main mechanism is made to deal against corpus, meaning high shield targets, usually shields are not really that much of a deal 
unless you have ridiculously high level corrupted enemies buffed by ancients in damage reduction, even at that level Impact proc will 
deal 50% damage to the HP as opposed to letting the shield soak up damage.

That is more powerful than the current deal more damage to shield as high enough shield can still tank quite a few bullets.

Puncture is meant to ignore armor on proc, since "armor piercing damage"
so 50% armor ignored on proc and 100% armor ignored on crit proc (true damage)


I suppose impact can stagger would be quite make sense, but puncture causing enemy damage output to be reduced...
should make it a "weaken" effect that also slow enemy movement by a bit (but not as strong as cold proc) on top of partial damage output nerf.


 

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Il y a 10 heures, Tyreaus a dit :

making Magnetic worse

Better for us, worse for the enemy because their stats are scaling much more than us and in my opinion debuffs in video games that reduces EHP stats like Viral and Magnetic in Warframe are bad game design because it makes balancing much more difficult to control.

Il y a 10 heures, Tyreaus a dit :

a DoT that bypasses shields

then it should not bypasses shields anymore but still ignores armor from shields or health.

Il y a 9 heures, Tyreaus a dit :

80% DR is like, maybe around level 30 content. That's not really that high level...

Some enemies like the Heavy Gunner or Bombard have already a lot of armor by default so their DR goes up very fast, i'm talking about common enemies you encounter during missions like the Scorpion, the Elite Lancer or the Trooper. According to the wiki, theses enemies need to be lvl 73-67 and 64 to get more than 80% DR and have respectively 45600, 31 314 and 36 480 EHP. I think the 80% DR is high enough but their health are way too low in comparison because our weapons can be so powerful even with no primed/riven mods that 80% DR is still not enough for them to resist a single bullet to the head. Then when you compare the same enemies with 90% DR it's getting worse because not only you do 1/10 of your damage but they have a lot more health somehow and they start to be bullet sponge for only 10% more DR and that's where it feels wrong to me.

Listen, we can surely talk about this all days but i don't like having a discussion in forums with other people because they are not in front of me, it would be easier for us all if we could talk to each others directly, instead of sending text messages. I drop the discussion from now on, have a good day/night.

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