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Make Archwing Better By Allowing Normal Mods


nokinoks
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Archwing sucks, it's not the whole, it's just the aggregate of these tiny things that compound and ruin the experience. To help alleviate this unfinished mechanic, just allow normal mods and remove most Archwing mods. 1.) It is far easier to balance the few Archwing related items we have than it is to have a duplicate Archwing mods with different values and 2.) It alleviates the gap of capability you lose from Frame to Archwing that DOES NOT feel deserved on the count that Archwing isn't really finished and it's more like bumpwing than Archwing because there is always a problem with either the maps looking so similar that you never know where you are or even when you are in an open space, the controls suck. I mean look at it, you can't even stay in place unless you use Itzal, how is that even a situation?

 

Some may ask "why now"? I know, Fortuna is coming and all that, but remember that Archwing is fundamental to Warframe but most people either hate it (especially the missions) or tolerate it so they can go from point A to B quickly and do absolutely nothing else. I think Archwing will be needed in Fortuna (not just for speed), it's obviously needed in Railjack, what I mean is, future game mechanics and game modes build on what Archwing is, Archwing needs to be finished or else everything built upon it will have an immediate demerit. It's just the way it is, if you build something with bad material, then you get a bad product.

Also consider this, it's already there it just needs fixing. So much of PoE can change if Archwing is decent. Eidolon fights will have a different dimension, there are already flying ships so dog fights can b a thing.  I've tried a version of dog fighting with Zephyr, it was REALLY fun. Also it will definitely affect Fortuna and Railjack and of course it will affect Archwing missions itself. A big chunk of content is buried because it is unfinished and no one is in a hurry to shovel that carp because that is a carp and carps are made to be buried. But if not finish it then at the least allow us to go through it with less frustration.

Edited by nokinoks
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56 minutes ago, (XB1)Architect Prime said:

I think allowing all mods would be an overpowered end of the universe situation... But air support should be super ****n' powerful (shame on landing crafts). So I'll say that there should be SOME duel stat mods and what not for archwing. 

I'm genuinely curious why it would be overpowered though? 

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Well, the Archwing Melee Crit mods are preferable to what we have for melee now. Archwing also has better elementals. Everything else like damage, melee attack speed and multishot ... meh.

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1 minute ago, Datam4ss said:

Well, the Archwing Melee Crit mods are preferable to what we have for melee now. Archwing also has better elementals. Everything else like damage, melee attack speed and multishot ... meh.

if they balance the AWs and anything related to be more similar to normal things though then there should be not much problem. And given that there are far fewer AW items than there are AW mods, then I think doing that is better. The other route is to keep the "good" AW mods but allow normal mods to fit. No one plays AW anyway so I think there's really no problem even if that route is taken

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Just now, nokinoks said:

if they balance the AWs and anything related to be more similar to normal things though then there should be not much problem. And given that there are far fewer AW items than there are AW mods, then I think doing that is better. The other route is to keep the "good" AW mods but allow normal mods to fit. No one plays AW anyway so I think there's really no problem even if that route is taken

So is the Archwing Effciency mod gonna become a Primed Streamline? I rather have that over Streamline, just saying.

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1 minute ago, Datam4ss said:

So is the Archwing Effciency mod gonna become a Primed Streamline? I rather have that over Streamline, just saying.

well if you think about how normal mods are, even if you don't have the AW efficiency mod (is it more than 30%??) it's still going to be fine. I mean, we do alright with the normal mods anyway. With primed flow available as well, there shouldn't be that much problem

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I disagree. There's nothing you said that warrants mods to be changed. Basicly what you said was: "The controls suck, so mods should be the same as for warframes!"

You also go ahead and say it's easier to balance the items than having Archwing mods. For who exactly? It may be easier on the player, but it is additional work on the development team. And it is far easier to balance anything seperate from our current weapon system.

To me this sounds more like: I don't want to grind archwing mods.

Yes, archwing has problems. The mods aren't it. I blame inertia and clunky controls as well as bad interfaces.
It is more likely though that they retire archwing as they did with raids or solar rails (then throw in something completly different and call it a rework).

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2 hours ago, ScribbleClash said:

"The controls suck, so mods should be the same as for warframes!"

What I said was "The controls suck, so mods should be the same as for warframes...." Punctuation is important, I'm not complaining, I'm suggesting because I think it makes sense, not because I think I'm right.

2 hours ago, ScribbleClash said:

You also go ahead and say it's easier to balance the items than having Archwing mods. For who exactly? It may be easier on the player, but it is additional work on the development team. And it is far easier to balance anything seperate from our current weapon system.

Archwing have incomplete mods. Archwing weapons are also about to be introduced to be equippable with normal gameplay. What would be easier, retrofit the hundreds of mods from normal gameplay to translate into Archwing and after doing that the mode is still incomplete or to change the values of the few Archwing related items (not mods) to fit into the current normal mods? The normal mods that will have to be retrofitted to Archwing anyway, just don't retrofit the mods, retrofit the Archwing instead. 

2 hours ago, ScribbleClash said:

To me this sounds more like: I don't want to grind archwing mods.

NO ONE wants to grind Archwing mods because it is broken. You are grinding for mods that you "already have" with a game mode that is broken, I'd say cut their losses, let the players use the mods they use with normal frames so they can do lesser work in order to complete Archwing. They can still add Archwing unique mods, nothing wrong with that and the current player experience with Archwing would be marginally improved.

 

2 hours ago, ScribbleClash said:

It is more likely though that they retire archwing as they did with raids or solar rails

Not likely, Fortuna features Archwing, Flying Eidolons (poe) features Archwing, Railjack features Archwing. Archwing needs to be fixed, and allowing use of normal mods cuts the time they need to finish it. It cuts the time since they don't have to make new assets, they don't have to test hundreds of mods and set drops for the missing mods. I'd rather they spend their time revamping Archwing than spending a huge amount of time completing the incomplete mods when most of it is already there if they just allowed normal mods to function with Archwing.

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13 hours ago, nokinoks said:

Archwing sucks, it's not the whole, it's just the aggregate of these tiny things that compound and ruin the experience. To help alleviate this unfinished mechanic, just allow normal mods and remove most Archwing mods. 

They have put Archwings and Arch weapons in Syndicates and Dojo labs.By that they made it easy to get all of its gear.Now you want to remove all mods too.Well how would you feel if you played hours of Archwing missions and farmed all of your gear and mods the hard way.I didn't buy any of older guns and wings from syndicates but actually farmed them all out and loved it.

How much Archwing did you actually play?

There are a lot of experts that will tell you how to rework archwing without 2h playing that missions

8 hours ago, nokinoks said:

NO ONE wants to grind Archwing mods because it is broken.

Oh...I seen this in last moment.This explains about all I said above.

Edited by RistN
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It is merely semantics to differentiate between what you think makes sense or what you believe is right. Wordplay doesn't change the fact that you bring up issues that have NOTHING to do with mods.

10 hours ago, nokinoks said:

What I said was "The controls suck, so mods should be the same as for warframes...." Punctuation is important, I'm not complaining, I'm suggesting because I think it makes sense, not because I think I'm right.

Archwing have incomplete mods. Archwing weapons are also about to be introduced to be equippable with normal gameplay1. What would be easier, retrofit the hundreds of mods2 from normal gameplay to translate into Archwing and after doing that the mode is still incomplete or to change the values of the few Archwing related items (not mods) to fit into the current normal mods? The normal mods that will have to be retrofitted to Archwing anyway, just don't retrofit the mods, retrofit the Archwing instead. 

1 Citation please. Archwing weapons being usable between leaving your liset and entering the enemy ship is not the same as introducing it into the current play. So please show your source on that.

2 Lets say they add archwing weapons for regular use, which still sounds like a wild claim, then your argument is still pointless. Shotguns have their own mods, secondaries do, melees do, sniper rifles and their are even single-weapon specific mods that could very well be shared across all weapons.

10 hours ago, nokinoks said:

NO ONE wants to grind Archwing mods because it is broken. You are grinding for mods that you "already have"3 with a game mode that is broken, I'd say cut their losses, let the players use the mods they use with normal frames so they can do lesser work in order to complete Archwing. They can still add Archwing unique mods, nothing wrong with that and the current player experience with Archwing would be marginally improved.

 

Not likely4, Fortuna features Archwing, Flying Eidolons (poe) features Archwing, Railjack features Archwing. Archwing needs to be fixed, and allowing use of normal mods cuts the time they need to finish it. It cuts the time since they don't have to make new assets, they don't have to test hundreds of mods and set drops for the missing mods. I'd rather they spend their time revamping Archwing than spending a huge amount of time completing the incomplete mods when most of it is already there if they just allowed normal mods to function with Archwing.

3 No you are not. You do clearly not posses the mods and this just shows that you're unwilling to put in the effor to get them. Just as I said in 2 different weapon types have different mods. Get over it.

4 This does not invalidate my statement in any way. I said it is more likely for them to scrap archwing than to do to the mods what you suggested. I stand by that claim. Also I might not have looked into all the teasers about it, but I've not seen ANY footage on archwings being used in fortuna - and yes steve said it was possible, but steve said many things that in the end turned out different.

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6 hours ago, ScribbleClash said:

1 Citation please. Archwing weapons being usable between leaving your liset and entering the enemy ship is not the same as introducing it into the current play. So please show your source on that.

one of the current devstreams

6 hours ago, ScribbleClash said:

2 Lets say they add archwing weapons for regular use, which still sounds like a wild claim, then your argument is still pointless. Shotguns have their own mods, secondaries do, melees do, sniper rifles and their are even single-weapon specific mods that could very well be shared across all weapons.

Velocetus is a sniper,  use rifle/sniper mods. The one you start with is also a rifle, again, use rifle mods. I'm sure there's an AW gun that is a shotgun, use shotgun mods. 

6 hours ago, ScribbleClash said:

3 No you are not. You do clearly not posses the mods and this just shows that you're unwilling to put in the effor to get them. Just as I said in 2 different weapon types have different mods. Get over it.

wow such an authority figure. If you want to farm AW mods then go farm for them, I don't want to farm an unfinished game mode. Get over it? DE is supposed to be finishing content they are building on, you get over the fact that DE didn't polish AW and that players will complain about it for obvious reason.

6 hours ago, ScribbleClash said:

4 This does not invalidate my statement in any way. I said it is more likely for them to scrap archwing than to do to the mods what you suggested. I stand by that claim.

How the hell do you do Railjack without AW? They will not scrap AW specially since they are even thinking of making the weapons available in non AW missions and they just made AW on PoE (and Fortuna) infinite. Not invalidate? Nonsense. 

6 hours ago, ScribbleClash said:

It is merely semantics to differentiate between what you think makes sense or what you believe is right. Wordplay doesn't change the fact that you bring up issues that have NOTHING to do with mods.

Well that's the problem right there, semantics are different from wordplay. I'm trying to be accurate, you're trying to be simple. The whole point of this is to alleviate some of the problems with AW and allowing normal mods to function will alleviate some of its problems for the players and not having to do tons of work retrofitting mods that already exist for normal Frames into AW means less work for DE. Less work for DE means more time to actually finish and polish AW. 

You're a "purist", go farm to your heart's content. I want to play and I want DE to finish AW and this suggestion helps lessen the workload for them and in no way harms the game.

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21 hours ago, ScribbleClash said:

I disagree. There's nothing you said that warrants mods to be changed. Basicly what you said was: "The controls suck, so mods should be the same as for warframes!"

You also go ahead and say it's easier to balance the items than having Archwing mods. For who exactly? It may be easier on the player, but it is additional work on the development team. And it is far easier to balance anything seperate from our current weapon system.

To me this sounds more like: I don't want to grind archwing mods.

Yes, archwing has problems. The mods aren't it. I blame inertia and clunky controls as well as bad interfaces.
It is more likely though that they retire archwing as they did with raids or solar rails (then throw in something completly different and call it a rework).

i agree that the controls are clunky, but because they are manage-able (still clunky though), it is not make it the real problem with archwing because they cant put so much effort into fixing the controls without guaranteeing that more people will play (and continue playing) the current missions with new controls.

i think a simple solution is to either give us an archwing syndicate like they are doing with K-Drives (because syndicates have always worked out well), or just feature more archwing alerts similar to how sorties and syndicate alerts are featured. i like everything about the current missions and weapons in archwing, i just think they are not rewarding enough unless they are tied to an alert.

Edited by MysticDragonMage
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Last comment from my side:

Trying to label me just further indicates that you do not care about reasoning.
You do not answer any questions properly, you do not engage in a discussion - all you (seemingly) want is to have it easier on yourself because you don't like archwing.
I asked for the source. You said some devstream without giving a timestamp and not even the devstreams number. You might not have said anything at all, it'd been the same result.
I say that there are different weapon types with different mods with the intent of making you see, that you have this "double-farm" that you're complaining already. Why do we need a different damage/multishot/elemental mod for shotguns, rifles or snipers? If archwing mods were to be removed for this reasoning, then ALL these variations should go to. But you went with placing archwing weapons into categories, which makes even less sense if you're trying to make things streamline.
I said that removing mods is less likely than removing archwing. You go argue with railjack. Are you really thinking that a thread at the current time with such a radical change could have any effect on the outcome of the Fortuna update? Don't kid yourself. Raids had been retired, solar rails had been retired - both content that was still in use. I am not saying they are going to retire Archwing. I am saying that that'd be more likely than merging mods.

Archwing mods will more likely be dropped in Fortuna. Because it is easy to implement it that way.

P.S.: Lets put your concept in a (yes it is a silly one) relation to similar complaints: Ivara drops in spy missions. Some people don't like spy missions, because it is slowing down the fast pace gamestyle. The solution: Lets remove Ivara!

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On 2018-10-24 at 9:55 AM, MysticDragonMage said:

i agree that the controls are clunky, but because they are manage-able (still clunky though), it is not make it the real problem with archwing because they cant put so much effort into fixing the controls without guaranteeing that more people will play (and continue playing) the current missions with new controls.

They don't need a "guarantee" per se though. New players have no choice but to use it and old players get a chance to use it every time they enter the Plains and of course Fortuna. I'm not trying to be a jerk here btw, just saying that if they fix it, the new players will have a better experience with it and the old players will find out about it as well as they still use it semi-often BUT only for transportation and not really to "play".

 

On 2018-10-24 at 9:55 AM, MysticDragonMage said:

i think a simple solution is to either give us an archwing syndicate like they are doing with K-Drives (because syndicates have always worked out well), or just feature more archwing alerts similar to how sorties and syndicate alerts are featured. i like everything about the current missions and weapons in archwing, i just think they are not rewarding enough unless they are tied to an alert.

I think this is actually a good idea. I'm not sure if will participate because I already have most things in the game but I can see new players' problem with Archwing sorta getting mitigated by getting more and more used to how it plays. 

A question comes to mind though, if more people play AW due to syndicate and alerts, will DE pour more attention to it or leave it since there's already more people playing? But I do think that at the least having a syndicate tied to it is a good idea.

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19 hours ago, ScribbleClash said:

Last comment from my side:

Trying to label me just further indicates that you do not care about reasoning.
You do not answer any questions properly, you do not engage in a discussion - all you (seemingly) want is to have it easier on yourself because you don't like archwing.
I asked for the source. You said some devstream without giving a timestamp and not even the devstreams number. You might not have said anything at all, it'd been the same result.
I say that there are different weapon types with different mods with the intent of making you see, that you have this "double-farm" that you're complaining already. Why do we need a different damage/multishot/elemental mod for shotguns, rifles or snipers? If archwing mods were to be removed for this reasoning, then ALL these variations should go to. But you went with placing archwing weapons into categories, which makes even less sense if you're trying to make things streamline.
I said that removing mods is less likely than removing archwing. You go argue with railjack. Are you really thinking that a thread at the current time with such a radical change could have any effect on the outcome of the Fortuna update? Don't kid yourself. Raids had been retired, solar rails had been retired - both content that was still in use. I am not saying they are going to retire Archwing. I am saying that that'd be more likely than merging mods.

Archwing mods will more likely be dropped in Fortuna. Because it is easy to implement it that way.

P.S.: Lets put your concept in a (yes it is a silly one) relation to similar complaints: Ivara drops in spy missions. Some people don't like spy missions, because it is slowing down the fast pace gamestyle. The solution: Lets remove Ivara!

Yes, let's remove Ivara! Genius! Equate one thing with a different thing!

If Velocitus is a rifle then why do I need AW rifle mods? If Soma is a rifle and Corinth is a shotgun, then it makes sense to have a different set.

And I'm not going through 2 or 3 devstreams just to satisfy your falsehood. Go search for it since a part of your argument hinges on AW rifles not being equivalent to normal rifles since they are equip-able on AW only. 

And I do answer properly, but not yours, you got something up your ass and I don't have to deal with you with the same finesse I do with others. This isn't some life or death situation, loosen up.

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1 hour ago, nokinoks said:

A question comes to mind though, if more people play AW due to syndicate and alerts, will DE pour more attention to it or leave it since there's already more people playing?

i have a strong belief that they would. right now they are desperately trying to keep the concept of arching by applying it to quests, mounting mechanics, and level transitioning. i believe, and this is just my opinion, that they cannot put so much effort into implementing new weapons, archwings, archwing mission, or a new movement system unless there is some gaurantee that players will continue playing archwing after their effort. otherwise the effort would be a waste of money and time.

remember that things like "we need more missions, weapons, mods, etc..." was requested waaaaay before we got pursuit, rush, archwing augment mods, arch-weapons, and archwings. yet, archwing is still not popular even though they have already gave the game-mode more content.

this is why i think a syndicate would work. because a syndicates offering and reputation encourages replay-ability and mission difficulty variety.

consistent alerts (like how invasions are featured; play this for X amount of times to get a reward) would also work because we would have more mission difficulty variety and more valuable rewards. plus it would be easier to implement than creating a new syndicate so i strongly suggest this option first and applying a syndicate later.

Edited by MysticDragonMage
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6 hours ago, Grey_Star_Rival_Defender said:

Instead of complaining about Archwing mods being difficult to acquire why not suggest a comprehensive rework of acquiring them? I've always had more problems with getting them then the balance issues. Plus adding on the heavily unbalanced Warframe and weapon mods will only aggravate existing problems.

This is kinda my point. A rework means more work, more work here means less work on other things (like tweaking AW) and so I suggest, just allow the mods already there to be usable for AW so more time can be allotted on other things. It makes sense. 

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7 hours ago, MysticDragonMage said:

i have a strong belief that they would. right now they are desperately trying to keep the concept of arching by applying it to quests, mounting mechanics, and level transitioning. i believe, and this is just my opinion, that they cannot put so much effort into implementing new weapons, archwings, archwing mission, or a new movement system unless there is some gaurantee that players will continue playing archwing after their effort. otherwise the effort would be a waste of money and time.

remember that things like "we need more missions, weapons, mods, etc..." was requested waaaaay before we got pursuit, rush, archwing augment mods, arch-weapons, and archwings. yet, archwing is still not popular even though they have already gave the game-mode more content.

this is why i think a syndicate would work. because a syndicates offering and reputation encourages replay-ability and mission difficulty variety.

consistent alerts (like how invasions are featured; play this for X amount of times to get a reward) would also work because we would have more mission difficulty variety and more valuable rewards. plus it would be easier to implement than creating a new syndicate so i strongly suggest this option first and applying a syndicate later.

I suppose this can be a starting point of some sort. More players will surely play, BUT begrudgingly. Once it has gained traction though then maybe THEN DE will give AW the attention it deserves. Space battles and hopefully one day, air-to-ground battles on huge maps as Space Ninjas and/or super-mutant-void-powered-androgynous-emo-teenagers.

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Wouldn't the best way to bridge the gap between archwing and regular gameplay simply be to add arch mods into normal drop tables? The biggest problem I had with the gamemode was that every hour of gameplay I had put into the game before I started was just forgotten about  because it's practically a different game entirely. Like, being forced to use unmodded gear is really not what I (and a lot of players) was hoping for after hearing we'd be able to fight in space 

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21 minutes ago, Greenshockclaw said:

Wouldn't the best way to bridge the gap between archwing and regular gameplay simply be to add arch mods into normal drop tables? The biggest problem I had with the gamemode was that every hour of gameplay I had put into the game before I started was just forgotten about  because it's practically a different game entirely. Like, being forced to use unmodded gear is really not what I (and a lot of players) was hoping for after hearing we'd be able to fight in space 

I think that's also a good idea, I suggest allowing normal mods because iirc, not all AW mods are available, they still have a few more to implement. But if I'm wrong, then yeah, it means there's no more work to be done and that smooths the transition somewhat.

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