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The biggest problems affecting Warframe right now, + thoughts from a 3k hour Vet


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Warning. Long thread. Mild rambling, but mostly on topic.

Table of content:

  1. Introduction
  2. Problems with game modes
    - Survival
    - Defense
    - Defection
    - Dark sectors
    - Sanctuary
    - Arbitrations
    - Anything Tenno vs Tenno
  3. Problems with 'frames
    - Revenant
    - Vauban
    - Chroma
    - Nyx
    - Ember
    - Mag
    - Oberon
    - Titania
    - Trinity
    - Wukong
    - Zephyr
    - Past, present, future
  4. Problems with mods (too many to count, but notable examples used include):
    - Magnum force
    - Shotgun Savvy
    - Augments
    - RIVENS ('nuff said)
  5. Problems with player engagement
    - New player experience
    - Veteran player experience
    - Also Mastery Rank (it's dumb)
  6. Problems with DE's long history of contradictory bug fixes/changes
  7. Problems with 'ThE cOmMuNiTy' and its notions around balancing
  8. Problems with content drops
  9. Problems with power creep
    - What ties the thread together
  10. Final thoughts from a Vet across two accounts of 5 years



Some, I imagine, will ask why a thread like this exists. Why now, with Fortuna around the corner? When DE is so unlikely to see it, to hear it, to acknowledge it? Why flip the table when food is almost ready? I will answer this question very simply.

This is no such thing as a 'better time'. DE will always be working on something. Not even Fortuna's imminent release is a real justification to delay feedback. Also, frankly, I do not care. Being 'smart' with my feedback in hopes of getting a response is me just playing a game even more petty than politics and more pointless than Warframe after 3k hours. Besides, the forum is abuzz with feedback on Garuda, and nothing else. Because there isn't anything else to give feedback on. There isn't anything to do. 'But Fortuna is almost here! Stop whining!' I reserve the right to complain when someone pisses in my food, even if it's given to me 'for free'. And while we're on that topic, I will say this -

Anyone who thinks that Warframe isn't open to criticism solely because it's Free to Play is delusional. Anyone who's played it for more than 5 minutes will tell you that it's hardly 'free' anyway, considering the stingy resource accruement through unfun methods that massively incentivizes spending to skip playing the game. Simply put, if AC: Odyssey can't do it, then Warframe shouldn't be &*%$ing allowed to either, 'Free to play' be damned. You should be able to pay not to skip paying the game, but to enhance your gameplay experience. These things are mutually exclusive - it should be fun to accrue resources, then even better to spend to do so. Not only approach a reasonable rate once you've wasted money. Sorry, Shill Up, but you missed the mark on this one.

Back on topic. I want to make something perfectly clear, clearer than the holes in Revenant's design. I love this game. I wouldn't have three thousand hours, have spend hundreds of dollars, earned and spent thousands of plat, if I didn't. I wouldn't be writing a MEGAmegathread during my week off from Uni if I didn't. I am not merely addicted to Warframe, I am a willing sycophant, intoxicated on the rich smoothness of Warframe's gameplay and depth of character. From lore to modding to weapons and 'frames, there is so much variety to love it's physically painful for me to criticize it. But know that I do so, smarmily, as a passion project.

Let's get started.


Problems with game modes

I touched on this purposely in the introduction for a reason. Simply put, endless modes are unenjoyable for the majority of players for distinct reasons, which I will do my best to define in no uncertain terms. That being:

- Lack of rewards

- Lack of gameplay depth

Note that not all non-endless modes are exempt from this either. The fact that non-endless missions don't have any meaningful rewards is baffling to me. These are the missions you spend 90% of the time you spend playing the game doing, and are the least rewarding. They are the definition of a missed opportunity. Specter blueprints for rescue? DE, you know the Armistice was 3 %&$#ing years ago or so right? Spy is what I would consider the minimum standard for game modes, for point of reference, because it provides useful mods, a fair amount of affinity, and relics. All three of which are fantastic for newer players. Obviously, it's boring to do endlessly and repeatedly, but it's still significantly better than mobile defense or rescue. And repetitiveness is less of an issue if there were a variety of game modes just as rewarding and "complex". I say that in quotation marks because it isn't, but compared to exterminate or survival it might as well be the Mariana Trench.

So. Endless missions reward relics and a fair amount of affinity. That should be enough, right?

BECAUSE THEY ARE BORING AS SIN. Holy crap, that video is loud... anyway. They do not make use of Warframe's gameplay to the fullest at all. Your mobility in defense, excavation and defection is meaningless. Your playstyle is meaningless unless it kills things quickly and efficiently in Survival or Sanctuary. And don't even get me started on the bulls&*% that is Arbitrations. The only endless mode even approaching good is Interception, and that mode is still one dimensional as all hell. It, simply, takes too god damned long. Further, the fact that Interception is the only endless with guaranteed relics in the majority of cases is even more baffling. These are the modes you do to get relics. Clearly. And you don't get relics 44% of the time on Defense. Why? Why, why, why? Why do I have 3k hours in this game and still get Fast Hands as a reward? I've never felt more insulted, felt more like my time was wasted, than obtaining 5 endo for my time. You know what would've been a good change in addition to the login rewards, DE? That at some point, at least by the time you hit MR 25, you stop getting 5 endo for 5 minutes of work. Newer players need the mods (I guess) but anyone past MR 10 doesn't need a 50th Fast Hands, a 50th Vitality, etc. Mod drop chance goes down, relic drop chance goes up. Better yet -

What if the longer you went in an endless mission the better the rewards got? You already do this with Endless Fissures, giving relics with higher levels of 'enhancement' as well as more resources, credits and affinity, so why the hell is that not Endless missions by default? Why don't drop chances for the goodies get better over time? Why can I still get Fast Hands as a reward when I've been playing a Hydron fissure for 3 hours already?! Why is there no incentive to actually play endless missions as though they were endless? Bruh, if I keep this up, Imma have to smack you DE while wisecrackin' and givin' out life advice, I'll be channeling LifeOfRio so hard.

Moving on. Non endless missions should be what endless missions are now. That would solve 99% of people's complaints with them, in addition to making the drop tables not &*%$ing stupid. I'm not saying Capture should give you relics 100% of the time, otherwise relics become meaningless, but being stingy is dumb. You shouldn't be afraid to reward your players, DE. We're not going to leave sooner 'once we've got what we want'. We're going to keep playing as long as the game is fun. And that fun sure gets sucked right out of the game like Heroin does to the calcium when you do 10 waves of Hydron 20 times in a row and extract with your 40th Fast Hands.

Endless missions should be endless. They should incentivize you with worthwhile rewards to stay as long as possible. It doesn't matter if that means you just get credits, so long as those credits I get are equivalent to my time invested. If I get what I want and more, that's fantastic, and I will feel rewarded for my time in spades. I will want to keep playing, going deeper and deeper into endless until I finally run out of revives. You know what would be nice? An adjustment to the AABC rotation to include a D drop table with rewards made for Vets, like Kuva, Rivens, Endo, or Primed Mods. I like the idea of Baro, but I also don't mind being able to grind for Primed Continuity instead of being forced to spend plat for it, or just get lucky and be able to play when he's selling it. 

And that should cover the rewards. Now, for the gameplay...

Personally, I think Survival would actually be fine with very minor adjustments. For one, there should be objectives you can complete which give you goodies during the mission, like in Mass Effect 3/Andromeda's multiplayer. Only instead of those objectives being the -only- source of rewards, they should be in addition. They should be time sensitive, and difficult, getting harder as time goes on, along with (of course) better rewards. Simply things, like having to defend a Terminal (mobile defense) or kill a certain enemy type (exterminate style) or carry an objective item from one point to another, to hack a terminal with multiple stages to it, any myriad of things that would add to Survival. In my eyes, Survival should be the jack of all trades game mode that lets you do a little bit of everything so as to not further incentivize camping. Because that's what it does, currently, and camping in a game based on mobility sucks. Also, Final Fantasy Seven, aka FFS, increase the drop rate of either life support modules or capsules, or make the optional objectives give you life support too. Something so that Nekros isn't mandatory just to not be buttphucked by RNG.

Make it like Horde mode, with more enemies, and things to build/do so as to get better bonuses. Imagine having to defend multiple objectives with sortie level enemies to get guaranteed Axi relics with a low chance for a Riven. That, I think, would make many Vets excited to do Defense. Most of all, Defense should really live up to its name, with you having to defend an objective from a crapton of enemies.

- Very little can be done to save this mode. Babysitting AI in video games is always annoying, especially when they do that thing where they jog faster than you walk, but you run faster than they jog, and there's no in between. All I can say, is make them move faster, or make it every squad you save gets you a reward. Perhaps having other squads trapped and requiring rescuing could be interesting? Or a continuous stream of doods requiring help, like a flood of Civvies in a zombie apocalypse, would be interesting. Like I said, not much can be done to save this mode, not while keeping it fundamentally the same. I'd recommend a total rework.

Dark sectors
- I like them. I like the idea behind them. Simply put, I think Dark Sectors should possess unique rewards and challenges, such as having Sortie modifiers or perhaps new more difficult modifiers, or even a combination of them, to make them truly unique. As it stands, they're just 'meh'. Extra Affinity and resources is nice, but not really worth the time. Perhaps a flat increase to resource accruement across the board, but make them difficult enough only end game players can do them, like Arbitrations for different things. If Arbitrations is how you get Endo, and Index is how you get credits, then perhaps Dark Sectors could be how you get raw resources.

- Should be reverted to how it was at release. The efficiency drain is too much, unless you're playing exactly certain AoE dps frames then you cannot make it to Zone 8, ESPECIALLY if you get unlucky for the week for ESO and have a bad tileset for killing doods. Now, I can regularly go into a pub squad and carry with a Whip Me Harder Daddy Khora build, so I don't think the drain is too far from where it should be, but should arguably only be as harsh as it is after Zone 8. That way Tryhard endless teams can do their thing, but normal people can do 8 Zones no problem. I've heard arguments before that ESO should be Vets only, that the drain modifier is fine for that reason. Honestly, I find this to be a load of bollocks. What matters is having fun while being adequately rewarded. Minus the Captura scenes and Braton Vandal, the latter is already true. You should be able to play what you want to have fun and get rewarded for it, and only have to play optimally if you want to.

- Finally having an official Endo farm is hella nice, but there should be other farms for things Vets care about, like Kuva, Rivens and Primed Mods, to name a few. These could be distributed throughout other end game modes, or included in Arbitrations, I'm not picky. People who want Endo but hate Vodyanoi won't like their drop table polluted with the untermensch gambling enablers like Kuva or Rivens, which is totally fine, and why I think it should ultimately be in separate end game activities. Also, when playing with Teammates, let people revive each other, but make the bleed out timer shorter. Or something. It's frustrating to get one shot and lose everything. Also also, Shield Drones need to be deleted. There are better ways to design your content to be challenging than 'hurr durr you gotta use guns or melee and not abilities to kill me!' drones. They are frustrating, awful, and almost as lazy of an answer as nullifiers. Almost.

Anything and everything Tenno vs Tenno
- I don't play conclave, so I have no idea what makes it so empty, but I'm willing to assume that the cancerfest that is super fast enemies and precise aiming is part of it. Honestly? If scraping Raids is your answer, DE, because of how much time you wasted on keeping Raids in order, then scrap Conclave. I like the rewards, getting 'frames (for new players) and cool skins is nice, but still. I wonder how many months earlier Fortuna would've come if you didn't ever bother with conclave... (side note. You know, Gambit is a thing. Maybe Warframe could have similar? Just a thought)

That's about it.


Problems with 'frames

Remember how I said that I loved Warframe? Funny story. After the Revenant nerf to his 4 (for no reason beside DE made a poorly designed ability and then made it worse because they couldn't have foreseen what a child would've in terms of how it would be used, when it requires NO IMPUT to do damage) which should've been a rework to be honest, I filed a ticket to DE Customer Support. I was outraged, not thinking clearly, and venting for about 3 thousand words that not only had Revenant been so disappointing and poorly designed but that I couldn't keep 'doing this'. I couldn't keep defending DE when this is how the players were repaid. I also made some criticisms that I will reiterate here, but that was mostly lost beneath my cry that "I stopped playing Destiny to get out of an abusive Customer/Developer relationship, not to launch headlong into another one." I got a token 'the Devs can't answer literally all questions, therefore the support desk is only for real problems, and feedback is for the forums' response from [DE]Paul, and that was that. I didn't expect anything else, mind, but sometimes you hope for something better anyway. Irrational, but human.

Before I get into specifics with 'Frames, I want to talk general. First and foremost, I think it is highly important that the people who designed the most well received frames in the game be the ones to design 'Frames now and theoretically forever. Sorry Reb, you're an adorable meme-able Community Manager/Space Mom, but absolutely terrible at designing 'Frames. Revenant is so lacking in centralizing theme that he could've been an Asteroid 'Frame. Seriously, think about it. Asteroids look pretty, are 'enthralling', leave a trail, and sometimes shoot lasers from their eyes. Okay, maybe not that last one, but still. The problem I'm attempting to get at is this - Revenant doesn't need to be good, he just needs to be fun. And the 'fun' aspect of him doesn't come together all that well, because of the poor design of his kit and gameplay flow. Enthrall is far, far too slow. Mesmer is a neat idea, and I LOVE that it can be reapplied (cough cough all abilities you need to keep active to live should do that cough cough and not necessarily be an augment cough cough man who keeps coughing over me?) but Reave and Danse are... well... I'll talk about that in more detail in a second.

My 'general' comment is this. The gap between frames touched by Pablo and those... not, is appalling. Pablo's track record shows nothing but glowing praise from the community. I get that he is one man, but anybody who's ever owned a business will tell you that good employees are hard to come by, and appointing the right person to the job is sometimes all there is to it, even if 'it' is still a hard choice. I'm not saying 'fire everybody, appoint Pablo' but seriously, a dozen Pablo clones and nobody would complain about 'Frames ever again. The most well loved 'Frames in the community, whoever designed them - make them in charge. Please. We don't want another Revenant. We want another Mesa, another Nidus.

That said, now into the particulars:

Not everything about Revenant is a 'waste of time and a warframe slot', like many say. He can be rebuilt. We have the technology. To make him a Vampire/Sentient frame, it's not necessarily that hard, but it will require drastic tweaks... such as -

  1. Mesmer Skin
    - Targets who are CCed by Mesmer Skin and aren't killed within a short window become Enthralled (automatically). Enthralled enemies do massively increased damage, but are much more brittle. They spread the affliction as normal. Instead of being killable, enemies that get enthralled either die instantly at the end of the effect's duration or take a crapton of Finisher damage. This ability can be ended early to 'detonate' the enthralled targets by holding down 1.
  2. Reave
    - Reave restores energy when dashing through enemies, but restores much much more when dashing through enthralled enemies
  3. Danse Macabre
    - Major increase to its damage. Slight decease to its energy cost per second. Adjust the hitbox on it to hit enemies more consistently around you on elevated ground or below you, not like a sphere, but just more in line with the visual. Make the channeled version of it a directed, aimed beam that absolutely obliterates things.
  4. New passive
    - Honestly, Adaption. Seriously, that mod should be Revenant's passive. It's literally what Sentients DO. You couldn't get something more flavorful.

- I'll admit. I don't play Vauban. But honestly, all he needs is to have either some team utility or damage options. His minelayer options are outdated and in desperate need of adjustment. His jump-pad mines are neat, but ultimately useless. As are most of his abilities.

  1. Tesla
    - Base status chance should be 100%. Ignore the charge mechanic because that is stupid and flow breaking. Buffing the damage isn't explicitly necessary. Just making it consistent CC on damage is good enough.
  2. Minelayer
    - A meme for a reason. Trip wire is useless, Bounce pad is for trolls, Shred is decent, and Concuss is niche at best. If they wanted Vauban to go full meme, they could turn his kit into something like a Ruth Goldberg machine, where if you lay all the mines in just such a way, an enemy that walks through it would end up CCed and dead by the end. Impractical, but funny as hell. In all seriousness, in order - Trip Wire. Inconsistent way of CCing enemies. Would be better if it acted as a deadly laser, or a repulsion system, for defending objectives in say Interception. Bounce pad - No. Like Excal's high jump, needs to be removed. Replace it with an ammo grenade or something, maybe something that gives allies armour or health. Anything would be better than bounce pad. Shred - armour strip should be perma. Concuss - should occasionally 'pulse' in an area and do its effect that way.

Bastille is good, despite the bugs. Vortex is good, despite the bugs. His new passive is hella good too.

- The big boi Dragon daddy. What can be said about him that Tactical Tater has not? Well, a fair bit actually. That's what this thread is for after all.

  1. Spectral Scream
    - Status chance should be affected by power strength. The beam should be swappable between different elemental types, which should combine with his current passive elemental to make a combined damage type. So a heat breath with toxin energy color would give you gas, coming out the wrong end from a night of Taco Bell and depression. That... that can't be just me, can it? Anyway. Can also be used on Allies to give them a temporary damage boost of that damage type. Starts at 40-50%, affected by power strength, like Saryn.
  2. Elemental Ward
    - Should work like Rhino Roar except it can be recast while active.
  3. Vex Armor
    - Should work like Rhino Roar. Maybe decrease it's energy cost slightly if you're recasting it, based on the duration left on the ability, or something?
  4. Effigy
    - Total rework. Instead, Chroma enters an empowered state and hovers, moving faster and using his claws and breath as a weapon. He uses his dragon-ness as an exalted weapon, essentially, and does massive damage with his breath and claws. A team buffer with a fun ult.

Chroma has needed a rework for a long time.

- Where do I even begin? I like the sound of the changes for Nyx, but I will still make my opinion known.

  1. Mind Control
    - Just like on Devstream 118, can shoot mind controlled enemy for several seconds to massively booster their damage. However, I would also like the ability to order them around, like Venari. Or at least to be able to get them to function like Specters. Would also be nice to reapply mind control to keep stacking the damage bonus. That would be freaking neato.
  2. Psychic Bolts
    - I like the idea of them 'stripping enemy defenses', however I would prefer that they act like Smite, where they seek out multiple enemies. Maybe even be an AoE attack. If it's just single target, it'll be pretty useless.
  3. Chaos
  4. Absorb
    - Should have much much much more range so that it can delete the map, or at least a lot of it. Also more damage absorption so that it blows up doods easier.

- The best worst frame, but still bad.

  1. Fireball
    - No more charge mechanic. Instead, just make it a one-handed knockdown AoE where you aim it. Also guaranteed status to set enemies on fire.
  2. Fireblast
    - To make a contrast to Volt's shield, instead of just adding damage, it should also enhance status, whether by increasing the status chance or causing the effect inflicted to be stronger. The latter would be harder to code, so I bet of the former instead. This would make an interesting meta with Ember where she could increase certain weapons Status chance to be 100% before multishot, that normally wouldn't be able to do that with just mods.
  3. World on Fire
    - Ties into her new passive, Running Hot. Creates a permanent aura of heat that sets all enemies in range on fire, while giving Allies damage resist (or overshields or extra health or whatever the &*%$) and does damage in a continuous aura. Remove the overheat mechanic, because it's dumb.
  4. New passive
    - Running Hot. Ember can't really set herself on fire without using outside sources, which none of her abilities do. So, instead, she gains an infinitely stacking damage bonus (or one that just stacks really high) based on the amount of enemies set on fire/died to heat damage. This could be represented by an affect of her energy colours/flames becoming blue, then eventually becoming White Hot (when at the cap or past a certain threshold.) So the way her kit comes together is that - she presses 2. Then 4. Enemy takes lots of damage while stunned. She presses 3, enemies die, she does more damage. She then has scaling damage, similar to Saryn, but honestly fire burning hotter is more flavorful than Space Aids getting deadlier.

- The corpus killer. Now the Quite Shy inbox filler.

  1. Pull
    - Enemies should drop energy orbs without dying to the ability. It's a nice quick QoE CC. Also when enemies are pulled, should be that they are pulled to the spot Mag is aiming at, so that they can be grouped up for Magnetize.
  2. Polarize
    - Should strip a percentage of armor and shields instead of a flat amount. 'Shards' should just be miniature health/shield packs, to be pulled towards you in case of emergency. That or create a 'field' that caused enemy bullets/projectiles to 'slow down' or divert away so as to give Mag pseudo damage resistance. That, or should give her a big 'power up' that she can expend to do major damage.
  3. Crush
    - Should do more damage at base, considering how S#&$ty magnetic damage is, but also possibly get majorly boosted by shards to do more AoE damage.
  4. New Passive
    - Has Vacuum by default. This passive is doubly effective for things spawned by Mag's abilities, like her shards or energy orbs.

- The paladin who can't heal or tank. Hm...

  1. Smite
    - Percentage of enemy health as orb damage, and also damage overall, should increase with power strength.
  2. Hallowed Grounds
    - Extra armor should start at 400 and increase multiplicatively with power strength, so 200% = 800 extra armor. Further, that armor should be calc-ed BEFORE abilities like Inaros' 4, or Rhino's 2, or whatever. Should also be 360 degrees.
  3. Renewal
    - Decrease base energy drain cost. Should increase the healing the more friendlies it affects, incentivizing you to not be selfish and play him like a team player.
  4. Reckoning
    - Improve armor stripping at base to be 50%, so that 200% power strength is enough to have 1 cast remove armor. Improve the range of it as well. Perhaps lower energy cost slightly.
  5. New Passive
    - The more allies Oberon is buffing at one time, the more health, armor and health regen he and his allies gets. Makes him Godly on Defection and anything like that. Makes him the best Team Supporting frame in terms of buffing and CCing. Gives him a defining role. If you need energy, take Trin, if you need raw survivability, take Oberon.

- Flies like a disabled butterfly, stings like a wet paper bag

  1. Spellbind
    - Enemies float gently in place, but don't just fly off. Should have it's base duration and range buffed by a fair bit. The status immunity should really be a 'state', where the number of procs it protects you from is based on power duration.
  2. Tribute
    - Every single one of the buffs suck. So, replacing them are - Dust. Grants a massive amount of Evasion for 120 seconds at max stacks, affected by power duration, or maybe not, whatever. Thorns. Reflects 90% of damage back to attacker for 120 seconds at max stacks. All damage reflected is not taken by Titania. Entangle. Slows enemies by up 50% for 120 seconds at max stacks. Full Moon. Increase damage dealt by all friendlies (includes yourself) by 150% for 120 seconds at max stacks, scales with power strength. How do you get these buffs? Simple. Instead of having to chance down a particular type of enemy, instead Titania extracts tribute from enemies afflicted by her abilities. 
  3. Lantern
    - Does more damage to enemies affected by Titania's abilities. Also, enemies that are caught by her abilities naturally 'float' together, so that when it goes boom... well, it goes BOOM.
  4. Razorwing
    - Her melee need buff bad. Razorflies are neato but need to hard distract enemies or do damage, and not die so easily at high levels.
  5. New passive
    - After bullet jumping, Titania's 'trampoline' not only increase ally bullet jump distance (by 50% let's say), it also slows/distracts enemies. This should make her very evasive.



- Fooled you.

- The only joke here unfortunately is him.

  1. Iron Jab
    - Fact is that Gara's 1 is a much better, power creeped (more on that later) variant. So honestly, make it that his weapon sweeps out with some kick flip dope ass animation and hits a large cone in front of him
  2. Cloud Walker
    - Honestly, should be the Nimbus from Dragonball 1000000%. Like Archwing but faster and leaves a trail. Maybe dashing through enemies with it gives him buffs or some S#&$. Honestly I think it should just be a movement ability.
  3. Primal Fury
    - Should probably get its stats buffed to have at least 20% status or so, maybe even 30%, so that with Condition Overload it can compete with the other exalted weapons.
  4. Passive
    - 2 seconds is pathetic. 6 seconds is more like it.

- Aside from danger zone memes, still pretty useless.

  1. Turbulence
  2. Tornado
    - Airburst should increase Tornado 'width' AND 'height'. Also they should move faster by default, and maybe gain extra speed the more airbursts you hit 'em with.
  3. Passive
    - Should also massively increase move speed while airborne.

That's it for 'frames. Coming up next, Mods - why do mods like Serration exist?


Problems with Mods

So, a long time ago, when I first started playing Warframe, like many people, I had no idea what I was doing. Nowadays, I understand things pretty thoroughly, after years of experimentation. However, when I looked through the dozens of weapons I couldn't help but notice a pattern. Serration, Split Chamber, 6 other mods. Serration, Split Chamber, 6 other mods. Serration, Split Chamber, blah blah blah... this is even worse for Secondary weapons. Simply put, this mod system which possesses so much depth, lacks a fair bit of meaningful choice. Which (in my honest opinion) is the basis of free will. It doesn't mean anything to 'chose' how to mod your weapon if how you mod it is almost set in stone, or that some mods are ALWAYS going to be on it. It takes away from the astounding depth of Warframe's modding system.

I propose a solution. Raise all weapon's stats by the amount that 'necessary' mods do. Increase all rifle damage by an amount equal to a maxed serration + split chamber. For pistols, Hornet Strike, Barrel Diffusion, and Lethal Torrent. Etcetera etcetera. This will be a fiercely debated notion, however it will definitely help all parties involved. New players will have one less mod to max out when their resources are precious, Vets will have more mod space to work with. In my mind, everybody wins. 

This, in my view, would help solve the issues of some other mods, like Shotgun Savvy. Now, I am poignantly aware of the 7ish reasons why things of differing power level must exist in games. So I am not saying that all useless mods must be buffed, however, I would like it if more mods which were inferior versions of other mods (hello Magnum force) were made as viable alternatives if nothing else. In my opinion, I think we all benefit from more mod slots and more mod options, because this will lead to a greater depth of gameplay customization. It will allow the modding system to reach its full potential. (Also, mods like Relentless Combination or Hunter Munitions or Shattering Impact? Keep making those. Genuinely unique mods are more than welcome)

Now onto Augments. Briefly - just about every single augment in the game should, for the sake of quality of life, be how most abilities work by default. Some abilities which genuinely become a sidegrade and aren't directly upgraded by the augment to become more bearable are exempt, obviously.

And finally, Rivens… honestly, it's just this.

Rivens are disgusting. They are a transparent attempt at making a gambling style item which will cause players to spend ludicrous amounts of plat to get what they want. Where does that plat come from? Your wallet. Rivens exist to supposedly "Breath life into older weapons", which is such a load of bollocks it's frankly incredible that nobody talks about it. They are an embarrassment, a blight upon warframe. But they could be salvaged. They could be made better. DE just doesn't care to try because the current system is too profitable. Which is why I consider it anti-consumer, and protest it vehemently. Things don't have to be like this, the interest's of one group trumping the other. Customer and business are supposed to exist in symbiosis. This is not. This is parasitic. And it's about damned time that somebody said something about it. Just because it doesn't come from a box called 'loot', and doesn't have a price tag on it explicitly, doesn't mean that if it quacks like a lootbox and looks like a lootbox… it ain't just a lootbox by another name.

First. Lock in stats. Keep stats you want. Costs more Kuva to roll. Then, the ability to spend Kuva to max out a stat. Finally, finally, Rivens would allow a path of progress rather than gambling and punishing players for their time invested. Rivens that somebody has already put the work in to max out would still be worth a crapton. It would give Vets the ability to work towards making their favorite weapon viable instead of praying to RNGesus. This is a problem that has afflicted Vets for years, which I imagine is precisely the reason it has been ignored.

You guys claimed to care about 'exploiting players' when you put in the slot machine that was Pets initially, but leave Rivens as they are. No comment. No response to the months of calls from a frustrated Veteran base that this is how we're expected to play the game. To looked after so thoughtlessly, the bottom of the pile of priorities. To us, it seems like the only response we're getting is to shut up and like it. I hope you can understand how much we hate that response.


Problems with players experience

We were all new once. For most, somebody had to show us the way forward, to explain what beast we were truly sinking time into. Frankly, most of us were overwhelmed by what lied before us. But that was part of the excitement. Those who found the call to adventure transition into the midgame, and become one of the 40k~ concurrent players playing Warframe at most times of day. The rest are the 30 million registered users, of which barely 0.0013% remain. The god damn Spartan Program from Halo had a higher rate of retention than Warframe. Clearly, if only arguing from numbers alone, there is something really &*$%ing wrong with early game Warframe.

I am of the opinion that as Warframe becomes more and more expansive with content, the more poorly it will retain new players. Why? Because newer players have literally hundreds of hours of content to get through just to do all the quests and Star Chart. And then there is still more to do. Mind, I am not saying that Warframe shouldn't have so much content, I am merely saying that the early days of Warframe fails to help new players adjust. In my case, I had to deliberately choose to continue playing Warframe, despite long getting bored of the sheer confusion from the absolute lack of information of what the hell am I supposed to do, what do I NEED to do, what SHOULD I do? These are questions that Warframe does not answer. Warframe, at its earliest for players, is a 'build your own game' game. You have to choose to find relevant information. You have to choose to find out what to do. Despite the Lotus saying that she will assist you, she remains eerily silent as to what this stat means, or that button does, or what is this for. New players are dropped into the bottom of a very deep bowl, and get vertigo just looking at the way out. And you may have your own opinion on that, whether it is good or bad. If this is a barrier to entry or just a unique design choice. I personally think the numbers speak for themselves.

And now onto the oppressed minority of Warframe... Veterans. We are many things. Raiders. Eidolon Hunters. Riven rollers. Guides. We are the ones who sustain this game. We spend good money on having optimal builds, optimal fashion, optimal orbiters, optimal everything. We waste time and money on this game like nobody's business. We are here. We exist. And yet we aren't treated that way. When a problem affects everybody, sure it gets fixed pretty quickly. But when Veteran players complain about a lack of quality in our content, they remove Raids 'to rework them'. Just like Dark Sectors. When newer players complain about the Mutalist Alad V key costing too many coordinates, DE fixes it months later. Veterans continue to complain about rivens. Years later, we still have not received a real response. DE promises us that Excal prime and co will never be available to anyone besides us. Then they bring back the Braton and Lato Vandal, weapons which should have just been ours, because we earned it. It was a sign of our devotion, of being their most loyal players, through all the BS afflicting Warframe throughout the years. And so we start to wonder about the next unvaulting, hoping against all hope that what we think is about to happen will not happen. It doesn't happen. We breath a sigh of collective relief as we play another game, glad that once again we haven't been ignored in favor of a dwindling population. This is what it is like to be a Veteran. Punished continuously for your devotion to a game you love, solely because people ignore you. Pretend that you're just playing other games, that in a game like Warframe, "end game can't exist."

No. We remind people, every time, that what we want is to have fun. We already have just about everything we could want. That we don't want more content, we want better content. All those modes I described how to make better, in my opinion, are examples of that. I don't want more to grind for, I want my grind to be better. To be meaningful. This is also the reason why I hate the current Mastery Rank system, because it doesn't incentivize you to play the game for fun by trying out all the variety of weapons, it incentivizes you to level things you don't find fun with unfun methods so that you can get back to the 'fun' part of Warframe. In reality, Mastery Rank should be tied to forma usage, days played, quests done, and other things that are actually reflective of how much of the actual "game" you've played, not how much time you've spent spanking your monkey on Hydron. This all ties together, because many weapons are boring through a lack of depth, and being forced to use them for the sake of 'content' isn't what players want to do. This leads to the non-interactive gameplay that DE so despises, as players find the easiest way to play the game without playing the game. It feeds into itself, and the fact that no one points this out depresses me deeply. This is a problem years in the making, weapons on top of weapons on top of weapons. And will only get worse the more weapons there are to grind.


Problems with DE's contradictory stance on bugs/changes

On the 30th of July, 2015, an infamous bug known as 'coptering' was removed. It was an unintended feature, beloved by many, yet many more were happy to see it go. Why? Because it had transcended glitch-dom. It had become a feature. Enter Parkour 2.0. Bullet Jumping was introduced to take the place of coptering. Not as fast, but so much more fluid and enjoyable. Bullet Jumping is so integral to the warframe experience, an expression of the raw speed and agility the Tenno wield effortlessly. Part and parcel of the package sold by DE that we are space ninjas, known by many as 'Tenno', the best of the best. I cannot possibly express to you just how crucial Bullet Jumping is to form the centerpiece of Warframe, to tie all our abilities as Tenno together. It is how well that Parkour 2.0 was handled that gives me a small, flickering ember of hope that DE does understand what their players want. But nerfs and 'glitch fixes' and changes and content removal says otherwise.

DE does not have a consistent policy of what becomes a feature, and what does not. At the very least, its application is uneven and lacking in transparency. I could spend all day listing things that would've been better for the game had they been left in and properly incorporated as a feature, but for the sake of time (considering that this god damn post is already like 5k words) I'll list some examples across the spectrum of what DE apparently finds 'okay' to 'not okay.'

Okay: infinite use Archwing bug, coptering (already mentioned)

Not okay: Wukong's Iron Jab affecting thrown weapons and projectiles from arcanes, dying to reset the chance of getting a Smeeta Kavatt buff/stacking them

And for features -

Okay: Conclave.

Not okay: Raids.

The point I'm trying to get at is that some things that players can do are fine, apparently, so long as it 'doesn't interfere with other player's enjoyment of the game'. Which, okay, I can agree with to be sure, but the actualization...

Anybody ever heard of a 'frame called Limbo? And how he managed to remain the most insufferable teammate you could possibly have for 2 YEARS before he was finally changed/nerfed?

DE doesn't let Saryn prevent you from playing the game. Also DE lets Limbo troll the S#&$ out of you and prevent you from playing the game (pre Limbo prime anyway). There are so many inconsistencies in design that it's shocking once you begin to recognize it. DE doesn't want Volt's Discharge to be too strong, yet they allow Equinox to stay untouched. They don't want you to 'cheat' and thus make many abilities fair, while Limbo and Loki are in the corner laughing at their Godlike power to manipulate mortals as they see fit. They hard nerf the duration on Limbo's 2 for the same reason that they decided to buff Mirage's 3 - to make the abilities in sync. This overall trend of general inconsistency, and complete and utter lack of transparency, is what leaves me baffled. Perhaps all these dozens and dozens of instances might be explainable moment to moment, but overall? Overall it paints a pretty clear picture. One very jagged and mismatched, with no discernable pattern.

The worst part is the lack of transparency, because I can only theorize why they truly make these decisions. Because I refuse to believe that Limbo's 2 was changed "because it would be too overpowered otherwise" when he can STOP TIME. &*$% ING. STOP. TIME. ZA WARUDO IS A PRETTY &*$%ING STRONG ABILITY YOU KNOW

The community certainly isn't any help, which is a sentiment that nicely segues into my next topic. The community of Warframe. Specifically, the notions surrounding game balance that I want to debunk real quick.


Problems with 'the community' and notions of game balance

I want to make it abundantly clear beforehand that I am not a game Dev. I'm just a Dood who's spent the past 14 years playing Video Games almost daily. However, playing so many games and of so many different types and levels of quality, still gives you a solid grasp on what makes something 'fun'. So while I'm not exactly a leading authority, I can tell you quite a few things that are objectively true, some of which you may have realized yourself but never quite been able to articulate. That's kind of the purpose of people like me, anyway, who think they're smart and well-spoken, to give rise to notions or feelings most don't know how to explain aloud.

That said, let's start with the most prevalent one: Why bother? With game balance, in a power fantasy game like Warframe? It's not a PvP game, so us being Super Duper OP OP isn't bad because we aren't being unfair to real people!

I actually got into a spat with someone on Tactical Taters comment section for claiming that 'just shy of nuking the whole map with 1 button, everything else goes'. Which uh, is ignorant to say the least. Anyway. There's actually 7 parts to why difference in power levels of stuff in games exists and is necessary, but I'm only taking a couple of those for the purpose of this response. The crux of the counter argument is very simple - you need a frame of reference. For you to feel 'strong', you need to feel as if you've overcome something 'hard'. If all guns do infinite damage, damage becomes meaningless, and ceases to be 'infinite', for example. All abilities being equally strong would be boring, because difference in power level and usefulness is key to discovery. Some types of players want to use 'weak' things and overcome 'hard' things to feel stronger as a result. To sum it up: you wouldn't actually feel OP if everything was OP, because nothing would be 'OP'. Modding would be pointless, differences between weapons/abilities/warframes would be meaningless. If nothing else, then enemies would need to be OP, and relative to them, you are no longer OP. Etcetera etcetera.

Next up: Why are some things so weak? They're useless!

While I don't disagree that definitively inferior versions of other things don't need to exist (hello again MAGNUM FORCE) there is no escaping the 'spectrum' of thingy power level. Why? Because there will always be a weakest frame, a weakest ability, a weakest gun, yadda yadda. It's all relative. Also, it's made by human hands. Inevitably some people just don't make frames as good as other people...

(if you know what I mean)

The better question is to ask 'why is this so weak that it's unfun?' That is a very good question, one I think needs addressing. Unfortunately, I can't answer it, only DE.

Lastly, because my time is not infinite and I've already been writing this for 14 hours or so: Anything shy of just nuking the map is fine! So AoE effects that play the game for you are fine!

Nope. Why nope? Because they are BORING AS SIN. In reality, the content in question (because we're all talking about Banshee and Saryn and Equinox or whatever on Hydron, usually) is so poorly designed that people don't want the 'play game for you' effects gone, because that would make the terribleness of the game modes even more pronounced. That's why you got so much mixed feedback on the nerf to Banshee's augment. Because you just changed how Banshee's build looks, not how she plays. You just run her with a dedicated buff, or even just play Saryn or Equinox. The AFKing methods will always exist, and while I'm not saying ignore them completely, I am saying that one must be realistic. Better mousetraps get outsmarted all the time. In reality, the absolute BEST thing DE can do is make defense/survival/whatever more enjoyable, and thus people will have less incentive to use AFK methods. Because as boring as they are, playing Hydron normally is so, so much MUCH MUCH MUCH WORSESEESESWE LET ME DIE I'VE BEEN HERE 75 MINUTES FOR 5 WAVES OUR SARYN IS AFK WAIUUDHAHDUWHASo no, the initial Saryn 3.0 wasn't 'fine', but you bet your ass that if Sanctuary Onslaught wasn't so dependent on high kill efficiency that people would've be more willing to let their teammates play the game. Because it's very, very unfair by the way, playing the game for your teammates, but I bet my bottom dollar none of the people who'll ever read this had someone complain that a Saryn or an Equinox was 'killing things too fast' on Hydron. That's the sign of a deeper problem, DE. Best get into that.


Problems with content drops

Now, going back into something I said earlier about 'quality of content' and not 'quantity', I want to elaborate a bit more what I meant. I do not mean never make new things again I hate new things make OLD THINGS BETTER, what I meant was that part of the content updates should include changes/improvements to older content. If you can think of new content as what keeps the younglings happy, then revised/improved content is what keeps the Vets happy. I am not trying to imply that we will violently overthrow the corrupt capitalist regime of Digital Extremes if they keep giving Vets the short end of the stick, but that is EXACTLY WHAT I MEAN LET THE STREETS RUN RED WITH THE BLOOD OF THE CAPITALIST PIGSDWOIDA

Ahem. So even DE admitted that the content drought was real. That's a step in the right direction, but merely resuming business as usual should not be on. From now and into the future, if Digital Extremes really, genuinely wants Vets to stay, they have to show that they care about us and that Michael Jackson's rhythmic insistence that they don't is wrong. And that means that once Fortuna is here, stop neglecting regular content drops to make massive updates. Fact is, 99% of the player base isn't anywhere close to finishing all the content in PoE, mainly due to the time gated syndicate bullS#&$ but still. Players need stuff to do for a while, not forever. Giving us a massive feed (as we call it in Upside down land) and bliddy expecting us to stuff it down our gob just at the servo ain't fair dinkum, mate. I ain't gonna eat that bliddy thing in week, I'll just go get grog with Greg and Bazza, way easier than tryin' ta fit me gob around the bliddy thing. Okay, I may have overdone the Aussie thing...

Frankly, the fact that we have to keep playing the same content over and over and over is just highlighting what I've been saying - the need for more quality content over quantity. If we're still going to be doing it in 5 years, it might as well be built to last. Meaning don't do a Fortuna thing again, where you ONLY work on new content and not on old content, instead play it split. ((Diversify)). ((Invest in Veterans)). That sort of S#&$.


Problems with power creep

And now with the piece of the resistance. Or however that's pronounced. This is, centrally, the problem that many aspects of Warframe's other issues stem from. The transition from CC being king to Damage was a subtle one, one that is now being pushed in full force. Why? Because the best way to CC a thing is to make that thing dead. Previously, damage options weren't as good as CC options, now it's the inverse. With Mesa's release, Saryn's reworks, and many other frames being pushed into certain directions, it's become abundantly clear what something needs to be 'meta', the Most Effective Tactic Available. Survivability, CC, and Damage. Many of the frames that people are pushing hard for reworks/buffs are frames that lack one or even two of those key things. This creates a unique problem. The Meta changes over time, but balance patches stay for a while. Should Frames that were once considered good/great (like Vauban) be changed solely to fit into the meta? Or is that too short-sighted? Because those frames are 'weak' from the perspective we have now, but back in the day they were pretty good. Could CC make a comeback? I imagine it's questions like these that stays DE's hand with straight up massive buffs, because of the potential to have to waste time undoing it later. This is one of the many issues that power creep presents, and why I believe that power creep is an important issue we should be having an open conversation about. To be frank, is it really a problem? If the 'escalating' power of 'frames is done right, we could end up feeling strong with most frames without making strength meaningless. Theoretically, anyway. With extreme emphasis on the 'could'.

All in all, the most pressing question is what do we do about 'old frames'? Do they stay or do they 'go', where 'go' means 'become stronk'? In my opinion, I think the most important aspect of balance is fun. I think that all 'frames should be fun in their own way, regardless of their power level relevant to other frames. I don't care if Garuda is basically Valkyr's younger sister with Downs, so long as she's fun. It's why I defended Khora, (after she had been fixed) because I enjoy her playstyle.

Anyway. Y'all are probably tired. I know I am. So here's some final thoughts.


Final thoughts from a 3k hour Vet

I'll admit it. I'm hyped. (Also, hideously procrastinating) I can't wait for Fortuna. I love everything I've seen and heard about it, because it sounds like DE has actually listened to my dozens of hours of Skype conversations with friends of mine about everything that's wrong with PoE and is responding directly to me. The ARG is giving us a reason to care about the people and L O R E. The sound design and layout is incredible. It looks genuinely atmospheric, the kind of thing I'd love to get lost in. Speaking as someone with 8k hours total between Skyrim, Fallout New Vegas, Breath of the Wild, and Oblivion, I'd preorder if I can. DE, despite all the stupid things they've done and that they do, have showed their willingness to learn. I've heard that's what makes some people patriots in America, that their country 'may not be best, but is always willing to improve!' I like that optimism. I want that optimism.

And yet...

I felt the same about PoE. I had that feeling in the back of my head that it wasn't going to live up to the hype, only for it to fall so flat on its face it became Chinese. (Sorry, sorry. Japanese) I get the same vibes now. I want so desperately to be wrong, for my cynicism to become Japanese instead. But I won't know until it's here. And I hate not knowing.

Thanks for reading. By all means, spread this around. Then maybe take a walk, speak to your kids. They might not have seen you for a while. Probably worried about you Dood.

Take care!

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Just kidding. Im still reading it XD

Edit: Ok, i read most if it lightly, and you have pretty much the main problems addressed. I do however think that some things should be explained more extensively, but i understand that you might have been on the limit of characters XD.

The main problem I noticed in this post is the elimination of mandatory mods, as well as lack of enemies feedback/problems. If you eliminate the mandatory mods by buffing weapons, all star chart aside eris, pluto and sedna will be filled one-two hit kill enemies. 

Also, I like to point out a thing. There are some things that you are exagerating, like oberon not being able to heal and such. This is partially wrong, but partially true when you are dealing with Napalmers/Heavy gunners and Corpus Tech. And i dismiss the exagerations as examples and/or jokes. But based on right things.

Edited by Condeangel
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4 minutes ago, VaricBreem said:

Sorry but you lost all credibility once you said  Oberon  cant heal or tank.... legit stopped reading at that point , Learn to build

Well, in my opinion he uses exagerations as jokes and examples, so i suggest you to keep reading. He might be half wrong, but he is half right too. Oberon can heal, but when you pick it up, the healing is a joke. He is the 2nd main healer, but is way behind trinity. He is good, but it can be more newbie friendly, since is the first healer most players will get first now.

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I don't get the point of this. It seems like a lot of work for nothing.

I think you do yourself a disservice by daydreaming about the tons of things YOU want to fix. Just enjoy the game

Feedback is good, but hyper focusing on pages of flaws is pointless.

Edited by Hypernaut1
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17 minutes ago, Chess4Years said:

Now, going back into something I said earlier about 'quality of content' and not 'quantity', I want to elaborate a bit more what I meant. I do not mean never make new things again I hate new things make OLD THINGS BETTER, what I meant was that part of the content updates should include changes/improvements to older content. If you can think of new content as what keeps the younglings happy, then revised/improved content is what keeps the Vets happy.

Tbh, i agree with a lot of the things said here ... A.Lot.Of.Them. Hence the upvote because i want more people to see this and engage in the spectrum. However we will see a variance of opinions, both from a new player (content drought criers) and veteran standpoint (why is 80% of the game underrated-ly bad).

There's simply too many positive to touch on so i'll touch on the negative ones (I.E what i dont agree with completely).

Vauban - Yes he needs damage, i feel simply reverting him back to his glory days can fix that, he needed a nerf then, not a coffin.

Oberon - Yes and no ... i feel he is extremely squishy, but a bad healer ... not so much. I like your idea for a collective healing growth ... it's more than a genius suggestion and i cried the purest tear ever reading it.

Riven Locking - Never can and never will agree to this ... i've spend my time and money testing the waters of that addictive games called Rivens ... a single round of "holy **** this is awesome and ridiculously expensive to maintain" and then got out and never looked back ... but locking stats, Rivens are already game breaking ... why suggest loading the deck in our own favor ... might as well give us a way to farm for stat boosters and genetic amplifiers to craft our own into what we want ... like how they handle Zaws. Get a template, plug in 3 positives and a negative  of whatever farm-able essence (I,E ... damage, multishot, elemental) and 400% point mod space (I.E ... 120% damage, 130% multi, +90% Heat, -60% Zoom) ... then farmable stat boosters of 1%, 5%, and 7%. More work, not tradable ... errybodyhappy. 

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30 minutes ago, Condeangel said:

The main problem I noticed in this post is the elimination of mandatory mods, as well as lack of enemies feedback/problems. If you eliminate the mandatory mods by buffing weapons, all star chart aside eris, pluto and sedna will be filled one-two hit kill enemies. 

I second this. Mandatory mods need to exist for the sake of progession. If you raise the damage of every weapon for the sake of eliminating mods like Serration, you render enemy levels worthless the moment you start the game up til Sedna. Is that the kind of game you find fun to play?

Edited by R.O.G.U.E.
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Well, there's good points here, but frankly there's also a lot of bad points, and a lot of middling points, and all of those are drowned out by meandering, exaggerations, and "jokes"

Not only does the length put off potential readers, it's also kinda difficult to follow as well.  I feel that a much more condensed post with most of the fluff pruned out would have been a better choice.

Also, DE typically does not read General Discussion, if you want it to actually be seen by developers it goes in a Feedback section.  Has been moved, no longer relevant.

Edited by Vox_Preliator
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1 minute ago, Vox_Preliator said:

Well, there's good points here, but frankly there's also a lot of bad points, and a lot of middling points, and all of those are drowned out by meandering, exaggerations, and "jokes"

Not only does the length put off potential readers, it's also kinda difficult to follow as well.  I feel that a much more condensed post with most of the fluff pruned out would have been a better choice.

Also, DE typically does not read General Discussion, if you want it to actually be seen by developers it goes in a Feedback section.

Spare them, please. Keep this thread here in GD.

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I can't reply to everything you wrote, just too much to read to give you any great feedback. I do agree with Zephyr needing a bit more, but I don't think it's by changing her augment to be on by default, but rather, changing the way turbulence comes off, and there's no 2-3 second invulnerable time given to recast. That's been needed since her rework, and has never gotten. Now Nezha has that feature, but still an oversight for Zephyr.

You're dead wrong about Oberon, sorry.

Your topic title. You're not a 3k hour vet, I don't care how many hours steam has logged. I'd have 20-40k hours logged on steam if I ever ran through steam but, doesn't mean I actually played missions the entire time. There's afk times, chatting and bs'ing in chats, and so much time wasting. You're a 1,500 hour player.

That's something that always irks me when people run in calling themselves a vet player. Yeah, you got some time spent, mr25, so you've clearly been around for a little while at least. I just feel that whole "vet player" term should always be left out when trying to make feedback, because it doesn't give you credibility


It's great you're giving feedback, and your thoughts, truly. Just, some of the things you said about the mentioned Warframes, and your hours, shows you haven't played them extensively enough.

Edited by Alcatraz
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For most points, spot on. I'll fault you for some nits on frames like big O, but spot on. Rivens and mission types could see vast improvement that would touch the entire player base. For newer players the game devolves a bland drone of Lotus telling us to kill this, kill that and... why again? It's the main reason I put down the game after a week or two when it hit console. In all these years they never developed a solid driving story for their content. Newer players are likely sources of revenue... ignored. They'll throw Fortuna out, but new players will hit the wall of the old content and for many the air will go out of the tires.

The most recent frames released have aimless, self indulgent and silly. Khora is S&M, but then her 4 is a play yard geodesic dome...

The lazy single serving play mentality dominates. To make 'endgame' content, they've only tried a minimal set of changes that feels like they are looking for the cheapest out, rather than asking "what would make this mode outstanding". They don't often ask themselves what they could really do with all the mobility they've created. In many cases they come up with really great ideas only to drop them on the floor. One has to wonder what would happen if they tried to tie together just a handful of loose ends into a tight story.

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you put a lot of effort in it and for this you earned some respect. this is not some childish thread written on a whim.
i agree with oh sooo many points.

it won't change a thing.
DE is a company that makes money. It is no company held by gaming enthusiasts that care about quality, content and happy players. It is held by shareholders. Shareholder don't give a f*** as long as the cash flows, which (maybe) makes the rivens an outstanding success.

Suxx but that's how it works.


BTW: https://steamcharts.com/app/230410
compare the numbers... september 2018, september 2017 etc. Overall you will find that they increase. As long as this happens, from a business point of view, DE is doing it all right. And the business point of view is all that matters to them.
And to all that say "it'S steam only..what about the others" yepp..doesnt matter...from a statistical pov the sample is more than sufficient to be valid.

Edited by kuchn
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16 minutes ago, kuchn said:

you put a lot of effort in it and for this you earned some respect. this is not some childish thread written on a whim.
i agree with oh sooo many points.

it won't change a thing.
DE is a company that makes money. It is no company held by gaming enthusiasts that care about quality, content and happy players. It is held by shareholders. Shareholder don't give a f*** as long as the cash flows, which (maybe) makes the rivens an outstanding success.

Suxx but that's how it works.


BTW: https://steamcharts.com/app/230410
compare the numbers... september 2018, september 2017 etc. Overall you will find that they increase. As long as this happens, from a business point of view, DE is doing it all right. And the business point of view is all that matters to them.
And to all that say "it'S steam only..what about the others" yepp..doesnt matter...from a statistical pov the sample is more than sufficient to be valid.

Could you pint me to a successful company that is being held by gaming enthusiasts so I can give them my money?

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I will try to cover your main points:


With someone with some 1500 hours of game play, the missions of Warframe had to be at least a little fun.  Either that, or you really like wasting your time or somthing along those lines.  Yes, the missions in Warframe become extremely repetitive. All most anything will I you do it a couple hundred times.  That doesn't mean they were fun the first couple of dozen times.  Same could be said for the rewards.  Yeah, you are going to get repeat rewards that aren't worth anything to you anymore.  What is worst is when the reward you want is well past the amount times you need to do the mission to get it.  Which Warframe skirts constantly, but that is to be expected from a fre-to-play game that has options to buy-to-skip if you want. 

As for better rewards the longer you play, it is pretty clear DE doesn't want players lingering forever in missions.  And I for one am glad for that.  I don't want to be in a single mission much more than 20 minutes and definitely not over 30 minutes.  That is too much time out of my day. 



Sure, there are frames than don't have as good as a niche as other frames.  However, Warframe is already too easy of a game and I see no need for this no nerf, only buff idea.  Honestly, I think Warframe could stand to weaken a lot of frames.  I still think that Harrow is epitome of warframe balance.  Harrow is powerful but doesn't have any 'perfect' (read: total CC, instant/almost instant scaling damage, invincibility/practical invincibility, etc.) with the exception of his 4th power which benefits his squad more than himself in terms of invincibility.  As such even my favorite frame, Revenant, is considered overpowered to me as Revenant has almost perfect invincibility and almost instant burst damage. 

I actually think more frames could be weakened to create more of a challenge rather than make then even more powerful requiring even longer play times to see something approaching a challenge we have now.



It still surprises me how much % increase DE gave mods in Warframe.  Most games give attachments/mods at best a 100% increase and usually much less than that.  Mods are another thing that makes Warframe difficult to have anything resembling a challenge.  And you want to basically give all weapons how many free mod slots?  Honestly, if your argument is no choice/automatic choice mods like Serration.  Maybe not adding them into the base weapon is the answer, but instead lower the amount of damage they actually increase the base weapon's damage to the point maybe Faction specific damage mods, or some other mod, is just as attractive of an option to players.  Again, I don't know about you, but I find Warframe really easy already.  I don't need more power to make it easier.



Again, you continue with the theme of I need more power.  Why?  Is Warframe that difficult of a game for you?  Do you need to know you could kill the enemies 5 times over rather than 3 times over?  I don't get it.

Your suggestion to lock a stat in place does exactly that.  I think is pretty clear that rivens were never meant to re-rolled and re-rolled until 'perfect-god' stats happened.  I don't do that, I keep rolling until I get something that looks like fun or I can work with.  Maybe if I find myself with a whole lot of Kuva a couple extra rolls here and there to see what pops up.  I mean it still kinda surprises me we get to pick between the old and new stats.  I have played many games where you risk losing your old stats if chance a re-roll.


Long Time Players

First of all, I don't think long time players sustain Warframe much.  I have pretty much everything I could ever want in the game as it right now, so I have do need to buy plat.  Even if I did, I got lots of things I could easily trade for plat instead of buy.  "Yeah, but someone had to buy that plat you are trading for." you say.  Sure, but if I leave Warframe forever, it isn't like there isn't 100+ people that could also have what I am selling or eventually get it to trade anyways.  No, new players sustain Warframe.  Honestly, I think in many ways Warframe would be better off having many long time players who do have everything and complain there is nothing for them leave and never come back.  I am quite certain their is next group of almost played as long to come behind them and fill the gap.  And I sure that can continue for several more years before Warframe becomes no longer profittable and DE has to move on to the next project.

Waframe is a fun game.  However, many long time players have completely mined all the fun out of it.  I include myself among those players.  At this point I have wrung out nearly all the fun there is to be had playing Warframe.  Even with new content, I am super over powered even if I self nerf myself just in the knowledge of how the game works.  I can't experience Fortuna like someone that started playing last month.  I never will be able to.  That's fine.  All things come to an end.


Changes in Warframe

There will always be changes in Warframe and power ebbs and flows from one thing to another.  Digital Extremes is run my humans, and like all humans, they have limitations to figuring out balance and finding all the glitches and bugs.  Even without that, over time they may decide they don't like how something works in their game and decide to alter it to fit their vision at that time.  Such is the existence of a living game.  Some times the changes are fast sometimes they are slow.  Many times they won't be to your liking.  I suggest you come to terms with that.

Digital Extremes listens to feedback far more than I have seen with most gaming companies I have encountered save smaller tabletop/miniautres games that have a tiny, tiny customer base.  I some ways this is great, in others I think it is bad.  Players are far more likely to give their input and think it might be acted upon which is a double-edged sword.  Good in that the players are more invested, bad in that they falsely believe it is their game to change to their preferences.

Again, the major theme of your post is wanting more power.  Which again, if Warframe was at all difficult to get through, I could understand.  But it isn't.  I think DE wants level 60 enemies to be tough, but they aren't given our current power level.  Why ask for more power?  You seem to want to buff what you think is weak to what you think is strong, but it is going to be a two-way street of buff/nerf.  Even then, some things may never reach good balance.  Honestly, your post is getting pretty incoherent at this point.



I do think some of the drops are a little low.  Khora being one of them.  I got her fairly easy but that doesn't I thought it could use an increase.  I sent in my suggestion and DE disagreed.  Oh well.  This comes back to what is fun the first 20 times, is frustrating the next 50 times.  Free-to-play and pay-to-skip if it really becomes and issue.  And if even that becomes and issue, there is always leaving the game too.  It isn't like Warframe is among the only 100 video games out there to play.


Problems with Power Creep

You have spent a lot of energy and digital ink on ways to make tenno more powerful, and now you address power creep?  Again balence is difficult and requires increasing and decreasing the strength of things.  That's on top of everyone having an opinion on what is strong and what is weak.  Personally, I think Revenant is one of the most powerful frames in the game, but most of the vocal player base disagrees.  I actually though he was powerful at launch after the 4 energy cost increase.  There are great number of things I think are powerful that some don't think so and vice-versa.  How do you address those and try to at least provide an interesting game for someone at a few hours who never played a shooter and someone that has played for more than 1000 hours? 

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I skipped down to your Revenant and Oberon complaints, after reading those two I didnt feel like reading the rest. Two of the best frames in the game and you complain about them needing pointless buffs. I grant you that Revs passive is bad, that is about it. The recent changes he's had has made him near perfect. And Oberon needing more armor and cheaper renewal? Seriously? Come on! And Reckoning needing higher armor removal as baseline? So you want him to be straight up better than even an augmented Mag?


If the rest is about the same I'm glad I didnt read more.

edit: Also reading through your Mag suggestions. No, no, no, Polarize should NOT remove a percentage of armor, that is what augmented Crush is for. Crush+Crush+Polarize = 0 armor left except in very extremely extreme cases.

Edited by SneakyErvin
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I don't think waving the thousands-hours flag is always a good way to support an argument. In fact I think that the existence of those thousands-hours itself is a probable reason for the perception of many of Warframe's problems. Yes, you do raise lots of good points (and several which are IMO bad), but the big picture here is that even if DE moved to fix many of those perceived problems many more would be created and there would definitely be backlash in several areas. To me, many of Warframe's flaws are pretty much unsolvable with the game being developed the way it does, with the constant need of additions in equipment, frames, mods etc.

(BTW, I think some trimming in that essay would be more than welcome, there are several parts that felt out of place and distracting for no good reason)

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