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Suggestion: A fix for shields


(XBOX)KayAitch
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After about Jupiter/Saturn shields become pretty much useless. They deplete rapidly, recharge slowly and don't even gate heavy damage.

In the late game it's all about armour and health, and every build needs some kind of self-heal/invulnerability or it's going to be killed extremely quickly.

With the delay, slow recharge mechanic they feel like they're designed for a cover shooter, completely unsuitable for Warframe's pace and mobility.

But shields are balanced as if they're worthwhile. Frames with high shields get downgraded armour/health to compensate, which is all wrong.

So, a proposed fix - shields should be much tougher, at least as viable as health or armour, and to do that they need to work differently:

- Recharge delay should be instant unless shields are fully depleted. Your shields could recover while under low level fire if your recharge rate is higher than the DPS you're taking.

- Recharge delay for a depleted shield should be < ½ a second, and be moddable down to 1/10th of a second.

- Recharge rate should be much higher, and relative to the strength. A full recharge should be 2-3 seconds, moddable down to ½ a second.

- Gate 0% shield, so the shot that wipes out a shield can't do any more damage, and you can't be one shorted by anything while you have sheilds.

- For balance the full shield's size should be significantly reduced - with rapid recharge even a strength of 50 is going to be hard for mobs to break, and as long as it's more than you're going to take in a single tick your recharge rate will be much more important. (Possibly make all frames have the same strength shield and make the stat that varies be just recharge rate).

 

Would this be power creep? Yeah, of course, but any fix that doesn't nerf health armour is going to be a huge survivability boost.

What it would do is make shield builds both viable and feel like different gameplay to armour/health tanks.

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36 minutes ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

- Gate 0% shield, so the shot that wipes out a shield can't do any more damage, and you can't be one shorted by anything while you have sheilds.

You'd be two shotted, then. Shield gating is not the magic cure-all players think it would be.

37 minutes ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

So, a proposed fix - shields should be much tougher, at least as viable as health or armour, and to do that they need to work differently:

- Recharge delay should be instant unless shields are fully depleted. Your shields could recover while under low level fire if your recharge rate is higher than the DPS you're taking.

- Recharge delay for a depleted shield should be < ½ a second, and be moddable down to 1/10th of a second.

- Recharge rate should be much higher, and relative to the strength. A full recharge should be 2-3 seconds, moddable down to ½ a second.

- Gate 0% shield, so the shot that wipes out a shield can't do any more damage, and you can't be one shorted by anything while you have sheilds.

 - For balance the full shield's size should be significantly reduced - with rapid recharge even a strength of 50 is going to be hard for mobs to break, and as long as it's more than you're going to take in a single tick your recharge rate will be much more important. (Possibly make all frames have the same strength shield and make the stat that varies be just recharge rate).

This fix ignores the reality of what kills you even with Shields. Toxin would kill you just as fast as it does now.

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38 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

You'd be two shotted, then. Shield gating is not the magic cure-all players think it would be.

Yes. I don't want it to become the perfect magic thing. It should have advantages and compromises, just like a health or armour build would.

Two shotted would still be better than the current shields, where they can be maxed and you suddenly die for no immediately apparent reason (I mean, something shot you, but the first you knew about it was after the fact).

40 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

This fix ignores the reality of what kills you even with Shields. Toxin would kill you just as fast as it does now

Yes, I don't think that should change, at least not with this proposal.

Shield builds don't need to be better than around/health builds, just in the same ballpark. At the moment they're worthless.

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Shields should be reworked to include a form of damage resistance like armor, like "shield density" or something. 

Each frame has a shield density value, where shield dependent frames have a much higher shield armor than other frames. It wouldn't be something as potent as standard armor since shields regenerate naturally and health doesn't. But knowing that your flat 800 shields means it soaks a whopping nothing in mid to high level content makings it pointless to even mod for on shield dependent frames. They all just use Primed Flow + Quick Thinking instead.

They talked about Shield Gating long ago but apparently tested it and decided it wasn't effective with this type of game and mentioned working on an alternative. Never heard from since.

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Despite any arguments to the contrary, or even DE's own assessment, I think shield gating should be implemented. It'd be something, at least.

It would kinda change gameplay, but in a good way. And yeah, you could get 2-shot, or yeah, you would get killed by toxin/fire/whatever status proc, but for certain situations it'd help in actually being able to react. For example> a nullifier sniper shot.

It would be easy for DE to implement it, and it would add. Simply add. It's additive. Minor, but scalable, but why not. No reason not to.

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10 hours ago, Ohmlink said:

I'd prefer shields actually protect you from statuses that currently ignore it. That kills me way more than oneshots

It seems a little inconsistent though - my toxin bypasses their shields, but gets blocked by mine. Shields should block some stuff, armour others, and some should be a bit more difficult to deal with.

This is just bring shields up to par, not making them fix all the gaps.

10 hours ago, Ohmlink said:

If you're getting one shot, probably time to leave, or play a tanker frame

Yeah, but that's why health frames like Inaros rule and shield frames like Mag are not useless, but extremely frustrating and fragile.

More viable late game frames makes more variety, which is good. I have all the tank frames, I just don't want to always play them.

7 hours ago, (PS4)Riko_113 said:

Shields should be reworked to include a form of damage resistance like armor, like "shield density" or something

That's just armour++, it should be a different mechanic.

7 hours ago, (PS4)Riko_113 said:

But knowing that your flat 800 shields means it soaks a whopping nothing in mid to high level content makings it pointless to even mod for on shield dependent frames

That's my point - because you're under constant fire once shields are gone they're gone for good. To be viable shields need to recharge constantly too, even while under fire.

However, constant rapid recharge and 800 shields would be be almost impossible to break for anything except high level bombards.

7 hours ago, (PS4)Riko_113 said:

They talked about Shield Gating long ago but apparently tested it and decided it wasn't effective with this type of game and mentioned working on an alternative. Never heard from since.

Yeah, they did - a whole series of gates to fix shields.

That isn't really what I'm talking about here - they kept recharge delay, and as long as you have that shields are about finding cover. I'm saying do away with recharge delays and have constant recharging (with a single gate, but that's not the critical bit).

6 hours ago, Zoretor said:

Despite any arguments to the contrary, or even DE's own assessment, I think shield gating should be implemented. It'd be something, at least.

It would, but gating cannot fix shields. As long as you have to run away and find cover for a few seconds to recharge shields they're going to be useless - Warframe just isn't about running away and finding cover. Dark Sector was, but Warframe just isn't (maybe it was before parkour was introduced, but it isn't now).

Relying on gating just turns shields into a health bonus you cant regenerate with health abilities - it's slightly more useful, but not by much.

We need a radical change to shields, not just gates.

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Correct if wrong, but I believe shield mechanics are universal, so that which is proposed for Tenno also applies to Corpus and Corrupted. Particularly thinking about shield gating, but depending on how recharge rates work and scale and how they might be capped (if at all), that could be a pain to fight against on par with armour...

Just a bit leery about making accidental bullet sponges.

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On 2018-10-25 at 11:41 AM, (XB1)KayAitch said:

After about Jupiter/Saturn shields become pretty much useless. They deplete rapidly, recharge slowly and don't even gate heavy damage.

In the late game it's all about armour and health, and every build needs some kind of self-heal/invulnerability or it's going to be killed extremely quickly.

With the delay, slow recharge mechanic they feel like they're designed for a cover shooter, completely unsuitable for Warframe's pace and mobility.

But shields are balanced as if they're worthwhile. Frames with high shields get downgraded armour/health to compensate, which is all wrong.

So, a proposed fix - shields should be much tougher, at least as viable as health or armour, and to do that they need to work differently:

- Recharge delay should be instant unless shields are fully depleted. Your shields could recover while under low level fire if your recharge rate is higher than the DPS you're taking.

- Recharge delay for a depleted shield should be < ½ a second, and be moddable down to 1/10th of a second.

- Recharge rate should be much higher, and relative to the strength. A full recharge should be 2-3 seconds, moddable down to ½ a second.

- Gate 0% shield, so the shot that wipes out a shield can't do any more damage, and you can't be one shorted by anything while you have sheilds.

- For balance the full shield's size should be significantly reduced - with rapid recharge even a strength of 50 is going to be hard for mobs to break, and as long as it's more than you're going to take in a single tick your recharge rate will be much more important. (Possibly make all frames have the same strength shield and make the stat that varies be just recharge rate).

 

Would this be power creep? Yeah, of course, but any fix that doesn't nerf health armour is going to be a huge survivability boost.

What it would do is make shield builds both viable and feel like different gameplay to armour/health tanks.

The changes you suggest are counterproductive to the concept of a shield gate at both the levels a shield gate would be useful and the defensive properties of most shield bulk warframes. First of all, there's a basket full of warframes whose defensive properties suffer with your blanket shield normalizations, such as mag and mesa. Frames that use damage reduction with shield bulk (such as adaptation, shatter sheild, link) no longer get the EHP pools they need to absorb at lower levels, and NONE of them rebuild their shields with the shield recharge rate. As for your gating mechanics, they're fundamentally flawed as they don't have a gate period and refresh the moment shields recharge, a recharge which has been significantly amped by your changes. In practice, this means I won't get oneshot by a stray Nullifier round, but I still will by a shotgun crewman, or an elite lancer, etc. Durability becomes an arbitrary coinflip between instant death and immortality at levels where I would want shield gating to save me in case of a mistake.

In order to implement a proper shield gate, a gate duration, cooldown, and instance steps are required. Thanks to this mechanical complexity and the crapshoot of related balancing, shield gating hasn,t been implemented yet and likely never will.

Also, shields prevent you from being one shot up to level 200~ enemies, and can be used with damage reduction as EHP bulk up to level 400~ enemies, which is about 99.9% of the content in the game. I'm not sure in what world shields become useless at Saturn (level 25) 

@Tyreaus Even if the changes were mirrored, I wouldn't be concerned at all, since its trivial for players to bypass shields.

Edited by Handstamp
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1 hour ago, Tyreaus said:

Correct if wrong, but I believe shield mechanics are universal, so that which is proposed for Tenno also applies to Corpus and Corrupted. Particularly thinking about shield gating, but depending on how recharge rates work and scale and how they might be capped (if at all), that could be a pain to fight against on par with armour...

Just a bit leery about making accidental bullet sponges.

There are already enemies that work like this, for instance Tyr Regor has this kind of shield. It means you have to bring a weapon capable of enough DPS to break the shield. It remember that being really hard back at MR7. 

They already have their own recharge delays for regenerating and broken shields, and their own recharge rates (some already much higher than Tenno can mod). I don't think that should change.

1 hour ago, Handstamp said:

The changes you suggest are counterproductive to the concept of a shield gate at both the levels a shield gate would be useful and the defensive properties of most shield bulk warframes

I wish I'd never mentioned shield gates. DE tried them, they didn't work. This idea can use them, but works without them too.

TL;DR: recharge delay does not work in a rapid constant combat game like Warframe (it does work in cover shooters).

1 hour ago, Handstamp said:

In order to implement a proper shield gate, a gate duration, cooldown, and instance steps are required. Thanks to this mechanical complexity and the crapshoot of related balancing, shield gating hasn,t been implemented yet and likely never will

I think this is why DE dropped it, TBH. One gate wasn't enough. Multiple gates end up being some kind of meta shields where you're counting gates instead of shield points, and the actual shield strength becomes irrelevant (with 3 gates a shield with 3 strength is almost as effective as one with 900, because both will stop 3 killing blows).

I don't think any mechanism where you have to wait somewhere out of fire for shields to recover can ever work with Warframe.

1 hour ago, Handstamp said:

Also, shields prevent you from being one shot up to level 200~ enemies, and can be used with damage reduction as EHP bulk up to level 400~ enemies, which is about 99.9% of the content in the game. I'm not sure in what world shields become useless at Saturn (level 25) 

On a few high shield frames (all of whom take a balance hit on health/armour) modded for max, yeah. Shields can give you 1 free hit like this.

But only one, because once depleted they aren't coming back until you get a few seconds out of combat.

Up until Saturn I found I could rely on shields, but that was kind of a tipping point - past that you need self heal or strong CC of some kind. It's not that they're useless (that was hyperbole on my part, sorry) but that they're massively reduced in usefulness. They give you one free hit, near the start of a fight, then they're gone (as one hit, even for 1pt of damage, resets the delay timer) for the duration.

That's the dynamic that needs to change, not the overall size of shields or meta gates.

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On 2018-10-26 at 7:39 PM, (XB1)KayAitch said:

It would, but gating cannot fix shields. As long as you have to run away and find cover for a few seconds to recharge shields they're going to be useless - Warframe just isn't about running away and finding cover. Dark Sector was, but Warframe just isn't (maybe it was before parkour was introduced, but it isn't now).

Relying on gating just turns shields into a health bonus you cant regenerate with health abilities - it's slightly more useful, but not by much.

We need a radical change to shields, not just gates.

Radical change to shields > Shield gating...

Your argument about "having to take cover" is pointless. Moving fast, rolling, bullet-jumping, even dodging, all of these are valid ways of avoiding damage, and shield gating would help with that stray shot that gets you while rocketing around.
It's not fun when you're being all "ninja" and suddenly you're dead, and you've no idea why, and it's not like you were standing still, asking for it, deserving it... Shield gating simply would prevent that aspect. The rest is fine. stays as is, and it's fine. It's fine.

After all, EHP in Warframe matters insofar as how much/fast killing power you can muster...

Edited by Zoretor
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8 hours ago, Zoretor said:

Your argument about "having to take cover" is pointless. Moving fast, rolling, bullet-jumping, even dodging, all of these are valid ways of avoiding damage

All of which give you chances of an evasion stat, or an outright damage reduction in the case of certain mods (like Aviator). Any damage resets your shield recharge delay and stops it recharging.

I really enjoy playing as Titania and she relies on the evasion mechanic more than any other frame. She's fun, but gets one-shotted a lot because she lost an evasion dice roll.

You can't rely on evasion, and so if you want the 3s before recharge even starts you have to dodge and get lucky. If you want the 10-20 seconds it takes shields to fully recharge you're going to have to be out of combat. Yeah, that can happen between waves or between mobile defence objectives, but it doesn't mid fight.

Tell you what though - if getting hit while dodging didn't reset the recharge delay or stop recharging then that would probably do.

8 hours ago, Zoretor said:

Shield gating simply would prevent that aspect

Maybe it would, beside the point though as DE tried it and decided not to do it. It's not the case I want to make.

That 3s delay is what makes the weakest stat. You can mod regen rate, but you can't mod the delay - it's always 3s.

It's a mechanic from a different type of game. It makes total sense in Gears of War or Call of Duty - games paced by pop out of cover pacing. Warframe's parkour mechanic is kind of unique and it needs a model for shields that complements that mobility.

Dodging doesn't make shields work - strong CC does, but then nothing's shooting at you and it doesn't really matter (anyone running a tanky Loki?)

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Am 25.10.2018 um 21:21 schrieb peterc3:

You'd be two shotted, then. Shield gating is not the magic cure-all players think it would be.

This fix ignores the reality of what kills you even with Shields. Toxin would kill you just as fast as it does now.

This. What kills you most of the time isn't bullet quality but rather quantity.

Individual damage is, with few exceptions, rather low per shot. Even a frame like ember can survive with relative ease even in high levels by reducing the enemies shooting at her. Have a scenario with a frame that lets multiple enemies shoot at you at once though and you fall.

It anything, why not add a seperate source shields scale from similar to how health scales off armor? Energy would be appropiate if you ask me...

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13 hours ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

I really enjoy playing as Titania ...

Well, there's your problem right there... (j/k... kinda)

13 hours ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

Maybe it would, beside the point though as DE tried it and decided not to do it.

Jury's still out on that one... DE has backpedaled or given in to community feedack before, so...

13 hours ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

it's a mechanic from a different type of game.

Sure. Like the Borderland games. They're not precisely parkour but they do have hitscan enemy shots and the like. Shield gating works fine there. Why? I'm not sure, but that same mechanic applied to WF I can see working fine as well. Maybe there's a minor invulnerability delay.

And whoever said that the same mechanics are applied universally to all shields, including enemies... nah. I'm not sure, but I don't think so. Even if it was so, they could program it to not be universal, because that's what WF is after all: a computer program.

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What if we add shield resistance, like an armor for shields, that way frames like revenent and volt would be more useable. Plus this with rage and hunters adrenaline existing even if you were excal or any other tank frame youd still want health not shields. This would merely buff the glass frames so theyre not one tapped

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8 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

This. What kills you most of the time isn't bullet quality but rather quantity

Yes, which is why even one bullet getting through any dodge evasions or crowd control resets your recharge and delays them coming back for another 3s.

8 hours ago, Zoretor said:

Sure. Like the Borderland games. They're not precisely parkour but they do have hitscan enemy shots and the like. Shield gating works fine there. 

I played a lot of Borderlands - it was much more cover reliant with very different pace and many more elite enemies. When your shield broke it shattered and you'd get a chance to dive for cover to let it recharge.

I don't think there's anything wrong with gating, but it isn't a fix that works for Warframe's pace.

Your shield shatters and what? You dive for cover in ESO? You take a 20s recharge break in endless survival?

So gates, yeah, great, but what we really need is no recharge delay.

6 hours ago, (XB1)VIOLATER X said:

What if we add shield resistance, like an armor for shields

Because then you just get another armour type and we already have two. I think shields should have a different mechanic from health and armour.

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14 hours ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

I don't think there's anything wrong with gating, but it isn't a fix that works for Warframe's pace.

Your shield shatters and what? You dive for cover in ESO? You take a 20s recharge break in endless survival?

So gates, yeah, great, but what we really need is no recharge delay.

Because then you just get another armour type and we already have two. I think shields should have a different mechanic from health and armour.

Shield gating can be whatever you need it to be, instead up immediately shattering you could be invulnerable for a period of time. To not male that stupid there would have to be a limit some how.

Depending on the frame they can generate shields on demand, not to mention the shield boost mod for sentinels. Volt with capacitance can simply push 4 and suddenly be at full shields in under a second, obviously that's not the norm though. DE could add some more mods that boost shields in some way.

Shields could simply have high resistance in general with exceptions to damage types that are specialized to it ie magnetic. But this change would only make sense if bleed and toxin ticks couldn't go around it.

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On 2018-10-30 at 1:54 PM, Ohmlink said:

Shield gating can be whatever you need it to be, instead up immediately shattering you could be invulnerable for a period of time. To not [make] that stupid there would have to be a limit somehow.

If the shield shatters and you're invunerable then that's better than the shield. If you're invunerable for long enough for your shield to start recharging then great, but then you'd either have the gate back or we're back at square one: hiding until it does recharge.

Gating doesn't fix the problem - it just adds a meta level on top with a load of added complexity.

Just don't have a recharge delay, with smaller sheilds that recharge fast so that they become the best way of soaking up mob damage (instead of incredibly vulnerable to it like now). Yeah, they won't stop bombards or toxic ancients, but they don't now and I'm not sure they should.

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