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Can someone give me bullet points on why rivens are so terrible?


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1 hour ago, (PS4)NicolaiBM said:

Riven transmuters are useful because of all the junk rivens that exists. The vast majority of weapons doesn't become good with a ricen, so that makes that riven the definition of pointless. With transmuters it'll at least be 1/4th useful. I mean, you said it yourself "they would transmute their trash". Your point about making a market for junk rivens, well aren't rivens supposed to be the equivalent of end game content (not that warframe really have any), that makes the rewards for doing end game content so bad, that DE needed to make an additional system, just for it to be useful (and not even in a good way).

 

Was gonna reply to the rest too, but I can't be bothered to be honest. You asked why they're bad, I gave you my answer and I've learned by now, that DE doesn't read any other threads than their own and only reply to the "praise DE hallelujah" fanatical posts. The rest of us with honestly really good ideas to fixes, we get ignored.

no they are not supposed to be equivalent and that's the problem in peoples arguments. it was basically impossible for DE to make them equal. someone will always look for a reason for something to not be fair.

one mans trash is an other mans treasure. everyone has something they don't want.

I transmute a lot of rivens people want simply cus i dont want them in my inventory.and that LIMITED SPACE we have. i have transmuted several weapons that are worth a few hundred simply because i wanted space for something else. Zaw Rivens i transmute pretty much as soon as i get them. tons of people would pay a decent amount for them. do i care.. not really. 

TL/DR the riven being good or not has no bearing on weather i think its trash or not. i've transmuted a lot of good rivens simply cus lack or space or unwillingness to sell them (i pretty much transmute anything under 200p cus i cant be bothered to wait that long)

 

Edited by Makunogo
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6 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

That's exactly how you determine individual performance when you're making a tier list, which is what Riven disposition is.

because OP gear will always perform better u dont need disposition to see that.. and prime variants are coming out every 3 months. which would require DE update it every time they introduce a new weapon. they clearly don't have time for that. otherwise they would have been doing it already.

they would also have to test with perfect rivens for every single weapon with perfect builds in literally every situation possible to get a 100% accurate tier list. there is several weapons that can do things others cant. which is why(IMO) its not an accurate gauge of how strong a big chunk of weapons are

then have to take into account prime/non prime variants. so in order to balance that they would have to also make a seperate riven for that. idk about you but i'm already short on space. perhaps we should be taking a serious hint with that limit of 90 weapons. they don't want us having rivens for everything perhaps? *complete speculation*

DE has already said that rivens are not done as well as they like. and i don't exactly blame them cus there is literally so much to take into account (and they clearly rushed/did not take everything into account and that's totally ok, DE staff is people too, not robots), and as much as id love them to work on it. would much rather them work on content. because as so many people have been saying. we don't need rivens for anything. but sure as hell we are gonna want them. i'm not surprised they had earlier changed it based on usage/popularity. which is not really a bad thing. had they done that today i wonder what it would change to. people might be surprised by its results in some areas.

Edited by Makunogo
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22 hours ago, Makunogo said:

TL/DR the riven being good or not has no bearing on weather i think its trash or not. i've transmuted a lot of good rivens simply cus lack or space or unwillingness to sell them (i pretty much transmute anything under 200p cus i cant be bothered to wait that long)

 

I do similar myself.  If I get a riven for a weapon I don't want, I usually just give it away for free to clear up space.  I don't have the time or patience to deal to trade chat long enough to sell them.  I don't want to dissolve them when someone else can use it.  Hence just giving them away works for my sanity.  😁 

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I've seen a particular dude in WF forum who heavily rooted for riven system early on for a few months like "riven system is perfect" or something like that, now he's been back peddling non stop for a while and said that riven is the worst thing to happen in Warframe. 

It's either he learned a thing or he shared his account with a polar opposite of himself. Lol

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On 2018-11-03 at 5:15 PM, Makunogo said:

no they are not supposed to be equivalent and that's the problem in peoples arguments. it was basically impossible for DE to make them equal. someone will always look for a reason for something to not be fair.

one mans trash is an other mans treasure. everyone has something they don't want.

I transmute a lot of rivens people want simply cus i dont want them in my inventory.and that LIMITED SPACE we have. i have transmuted several weapons that are worth a few hundred simply because i wanted space for something else. Zaw Rivens i transmute pretty much as soon as i get them. tons of people would pay a decent amount for them. do i care.. not really. 

TL/DR the riven being good or not has no bearing on weather i think its trash or not. i've transmuted a lot of good rivens simply cus lack or space or unwillingness to sell them (i pretty much transmute anything under 200p cus i cant be bothered to wait that long)

 

You're right in saying they weren't supposed to be equal. Rivens where supposed to "bring life to our lesser used weapons", which they in large part have failed at, because those lesser used weapons are exactly that for a reason: a lack of base stats to mod upon. Your (and everyone else who share it) idea that it was impossible to make them equal have a too limited way of thinking, as it's extremely easy to make rivens affect all weapons equally: altered base stats. Instead of working like every other mod in the game, rivens should directly alter the base stats that's the core issue of the lesser used weapons. You roll "Critical Chance Enhancement" and all of a sudden your weapon with 4% Critical Chance have a base 40 or 50% base Critical Chance and the issue is solved. This works with every single base stat a weapon have, you even have the option of rolling "Slash Damage Convertion" in this scenario, which will alter either a percentage or all base physical damage to Slash. Problem solved, rivens affect all weapons equally and there's no need for a less than intelligent disposition balance system for rivens, as no single riven will allow a weapon to border on broken.

Your quote on one mans trash is another mans treasure. I like the idea, but put in to reality of warframe, each weapon have specific needs dictated by the base stats of that weapon. You can roll Status Chance all you want on your melee riven or critical chance on your rifle riven, but if the intended weapon doesn't have the base stat or archetype doesn't support the stat you want, you can't change that with a riven.

I know why rivens are being transmuted, it's the same for you as everyone else, limited space is one of the issues with rivens. But you cannot tell me that you're transmuting a rubico, a lanka, a vectis and a plague kripath riven in the hopes that you'll get a mire riven or a heat dagger riven. The argument I made in the first place about riven transmuters is still the same valid point, that rivens are extremely badly made. The fact rivens with value gets transmuted is also a representation of just how time consuming and poorly designed the market in warframe is.

TL;DR Already made it as short as I could.

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2 hours ago, (PS4)NicolaiBM said:

You're right in saying they weren't supposed to be equal. Rivens where supposed to "bring life to our lesser used weapons", which they in large part have failed at, because those lesser used weapons are exactly that for a reason: a lack of base stats to mod upon. Your (and everyone else who share it) idea that it was impossible to make them equal have a too limited way of thinking, as it's extremely easy to make rivens affect all weapons equally: altered base stats. Instead of working like every other mod in the game, rivens should directly alter the base stats that's the core issue of the lesser used weapons. You roll "Critical Chance Enhancement" and all of a sudden your weapon with 4% Critical Chance have a base 40 or 50% base Critical Chance and the issue is solved. This works with every single base stat a weapon have, you even have the option of rolling "Slash Damage Convertion" in this scenario, which will alter either a percentage or all base physical damage to Slash. Problem solved, rivens affect all weapons equally and there's no need for a less than intelligent disposition balance system for rivens, as no single riven will allow a weapon to border on broken.

Your quote on one mans trash is another mans treasure. I like the idea, but put in to reality of warframe, each weapon have specific needs dictated by the base stats of that weapon. You can roll Status Chance all you want on your melee riven or critical chance on your rifle riven, but if the intended weapon doesn't have the base stat or archetype doesn't support the stat you want, you can't change that with a riven.

I know why rivens are being transmuted, it's the same for you as everyone else, limited space is one of the issues with rivens. But you cannot tell me that you're transmuting a rubico, a lanka, a vectis and a plague kripath riven in the hopes that you'll get a mire riven or a heat dagger riven. The argument I made in the first place about riven transmuters is still the same valid point, that rivens are extremely badly made. The fact rivens with value gets transmuted is also a representation of just how time consuming and poorly designed the market in warframe is.

TL;DR Already made it as short as I could.

I guess I have a different idea of "extremely badly made". You talk as if no one is enjoying the system as it currently is. I'd wager 90% of the players acquire and use rivens just fine and DE has said themselves that the system has been a success with keeping vets engaged in the game. 

Edited by Hypernaut1
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14 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I guess I have a different idea of "extremely badly made". You talk as if no one is enjoying the system as it currently is. I'd wager 90% of the players acquire and use rivens just fine and DE has said themselves that the system has been a success with keeping vets engaged in the game. 

And I'd wager that 90% of the rivens isn't exactly what the owner of that riven wants, but something they're making due with. And after investing hundreds of hours in to something, making due is just not acceptable. As for DE saying something is a success, well I'd take that with a grain of salt, cause they tend to completely ignore the downside of things they make. The success of keeping vets engaged comes with the downside of a lot of vets have actually left warframe and most of the vets I know that have left, they've left because "rivens are just stupid beyond belief" and "arcanes from eidolons? I know the raids wasn't exactly hard, but at least you'd die and not complete if you where a complete tool". Best quote I have from one of those vets is "Warframe would be so much better, if someone else would take over and DE had nothing to do with it anymore" and to be honest, I'm agreeing with the guy.

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15 minutes ago, (PS4)NicolaiBM said:

And I'd wager that 90% of the rivens isn't exactly what the owner of that riven wants, but something they're making due with. And after investing hundreds of hours in to something, making due is just not acceptable. As for DE saying something is a success, well I'd take that with a grain of salt, cause they tend to completely ignore the downside of things they make. The success of keeping vets engaged comes with the downside of a lot of vets have actually left warframe and most of the vets I know that have left, they've left because "rivens are just stupid beyond belief" and "arcanes from eidolons? I know the raids wasn't exactly hard, but at least you'd die and not complete if you where a complete tool". Best quote I have from one of those vets is "Warframe would be so much better, if someone else would take over and DE had nothing to do with it anymore" and to be honest, I'm agreeing with the guy.

Anyone that's left Warframe over rivens were playing for the wrong reasons to begin with. Win/win

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3 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Anyone that's left Warframe over rivens were playing for the wrong reasons to begin with. Win/win

Person 1. "Rivens are good because they keep vets engaged".

Person 2. "Rivens are bad because they caused a bunch of vets to leave".

Person 1. "Yeah well, obviously those people don't matter because they were playing wrong".

That works both ways Hypernaut. If anyone who cares enough about Rivens to leave the game over them was "playing the game for the wrong reasons", then anyone who's kept playing because of Rivens is also playing the game for the wrong reasons. Rivens. In both situations people are playing for Rivens. Some have fun doing that and keep playing, others do not and leave.

And, fortunately, you don't get to decide what the right way of playing is anyway.

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From player&professional side:
It's not possible to fix issues regarding it. I mean, YES, technically is possible but that ill piss off many players, mainly ppl who bought expensive rivens. IF they went with another solution within month when rivens got introduced, then yeah, but now it's too late. However, what they could do is fixing disposition when prime hits - Gram&Tiberon p situation. And calculating disposition based on popularity, seriously? Obviously if they buff or nerf the stats, popularity gonna change. How about calculating on actual weapon stats instead?

Now why I dislike rivens and blame goes on players/sellers as well:

- I don't see how is it reasonable or ok to sell rivens for 20-30k. Heck, even 6k. If u do the calculation in real money - some rivens reaches price of 1k $ and above that. Many countries have monthly 200-400$ payout.
- Unlike rivens, primed stuff are getting constantly underpriced so sellers can earn a little bit. And by using any sense of logic, player gonna have more use of let's say Oberon Prime than 30k Lanka riven.
- RNG rolls and players getting rewarded in absurd amount of plat for getting lucky. I can understand riven with 100 rolls hitting higher price since it's far more invested time compared to the 30k lucky third roll.
- Even if it's a free market, when it goes out of control, something should be done about it.
- Too many pointless rolls. I'll give example of my roll from 2 days ago: + zoom, + dmg to infested (and that was it) for the lanka riven (personal use, not for selling since I don't sell rivens). Like... I can't think of a single weapon that could possibly benefit from this.

- Farming Kuva: reward that often leaves u with feeling of a wasted time. Someone already mentioned this. Whenever I farm something, an example are relics, if I get a trash part, at least I can give it so someone who might needs it or I can exchange for ducats. 40 mins of Kuva survival - 3 rolls, all absolute trash rolls. Then repeat and same story. Having RNG rivens was already enough (thanks for all the sentinel weapons, I really didn't need them but at least I owe 'god tier' meme deconstructor riven so Helios snipes everything from half of the map)

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Let me tell you this as a vet. I would have quit playing this game if not for  the rivens. They singlehandedly made the game more interesting again, and here is why.

The game revolves around modding your weapons, as it is the only  customization that you can do. Talent trees or variety skill builds don't exist in this game.  Every person has pretty much the same setup. Rivens however, addeded a taste of a personlized customization in your weapon builds and also made certain weapons(ones you liked but didn't use coz they were too weak) viable again.

No one can argue against these points. I'd say riven update is the most refreshing thing DE has done in years(aside from melee and damage 2.0), and they should put more effort into expanding the riven concept, adding more randomized content in the game for every piece of equipment you have.

Edited by White_Matter
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1 hour ago, White_Matter said:

Let me tell you this as a vet. I would have quit playing this game if not for  the rivens. They singlehandedly made the game more interesting again, and here is why.

The game revolves around modding your weapons, as it is the only  customization that you can do. Talent trees or variety skill builds don't exist in this game.  Every person has pretty much the same setup. Rivens however, addeded a taste of a personlized customization in your weapon builds and also made certain weapons(ones you liked but didn't use coz they were too weak) viable again.

No one can argue against these points. I'd say riven update is the most refreshing thing DE has done in years(aside from melee and damage 2.0), and they should put more effort into expanding the riven concept, adding more randomized content in the game for every piece of equipment you have.

I don't know if I would've quit playing, but rivens definitely livened up the game for me. Before rivens, modding began feeling very stagnant for months at a time because the devs didn't and probably COULDN'T release new mods consistently. Everything had this finite feeling to it. A new mod was released, you did the grind to get it, then that was it. Either it was an OP mod you had to squeeze into as many builds as possible or collection fodder you would just forget about again. 

Before rivens, sorties prize pool was practically pointless. It was something you played just as a check off. Especially when they got rid of repeating rewards...it made the rewards even more irrelevant. I would do maybe 2 or 3 a week. I definitely didn't have that perpetual drive I have now to just get one in. 

The system isn't perfect, but I think it's by FAR one if the best additions DE has ever made for the health of the game. As much as people try to downplay it, plenty of people do indeed participate in the system. It's definitely a big success on one level or another

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9 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

So....look, I agree with @White_Matter in that personalised, randomised traits for your gear do feel pretty nifty.

 

However, a system which allows this kind of thing to exist is not a good system:

 

rmovppaog5201.jpg

But why not though? Everyone's isn't rolling that.

Is it wrong that it's possible to get an AWESOME mod? That's just sounds surreal to me. Do people not like the chancd for something great? It's like self defeating, just so no one else can enjoy it either.

It's not like this mod completely breaks the game and gives a player God mode. it simply means they got lucky. Isn't that a staple of MANY arpgs? Someone will always have some crazy awesome item they rolled?

I have an awesome aklex mod too, but it doesn't mean I'm regulated to using it. Because of rivens, I can also use my akzani or wraith twin viper. They may not be as strong DPS wise, but they are still plenty strong with the rivens that I can comfortably take them anywhere I would take my aklex. I really don't see how my game was made worse by having a good aklex mod.

Edited by Hypernaut1
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15 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

The system isn't perfect, but I think it's by FAR one if the best additions DE has ever made for the health of the game. As much as people try to downplay it, plenty of people do indeed participate in the system. It's definitely a big success on one level or another

Yet I have a roster of rivens, almost all aquired directly from sortie. Cant do much to improve them because roll process is uttrly rng and kuva just not that fun to farm. A lot of bugs and an hour for a couple rolls.

Arbitrations is meh. Not interesting enough. All to sell some mod that’s eh, but worth something for a short while.

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They totally upset the status quo though, which I think is an issue to some, whether they admit it or not. WF used to be very safe, we all surfed that meta wave, secure in the knowledge our builds were the best they could be. Within hours of a new weapon being released its optimal load out was devised and uploaded and a few formas later we all got back on the wave, snug and safe, united in our awesomeness.

Now some are seemingly more awesome than others, their numbers are bigger, even though it doesn’t make a shred of difference, 1 shot is 1 shot after all but some players can’t stand this, they cry broken, even though the game clearly isn’t broke, they just want that comforting conformity back.

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4 hours ago, (PS4)obsidiancurse said:

They totally upset the status quo though, which I think is an issue to some, whether they admit it or not. WF used to be very safe, we all surfed that meta wave, secure in the knowledge our builds were the best they could be. Within hours of a new weapon being released its optimal load out was devised and uploaded and a few formas later we all got back on the wave, snug and safe, united in our awesomeness.

Now some are seemingly more awesome than others, their numbers are bigger, even though it doesn’t make a shred of difference, 1 shot is 1 shot after all but some players can’t stand this, they cry broken, even though the game clearly isn’t broke, they just want that comforting conformity back.

IMO that was boring. The idea that there was always one static best way to do things and it was established and reestablished days/weeks after a new weapon was released. 

Frames are much more dynamic and DO NOT need rivens, but weapons were getting stale. There was a clear tier of weapons and it was unchanging. With rivens, we have a reason to revisit older weapons. We have 90 weapons we can choose to buff and make unique in one way or they other. Before rivens, there was not much uniqueness to your arsenal unless you were just trying to be overly different, like slotting a bunch of utility mods for insane reload speed or something. When rivens, even if I chase meta rivens and shell out tons of plat, I still have at least another 60 or so weapons uniquely powerful to me. So I may have an awesome Lanka like players love to chase, but can also equip a powerful one shotting grinlok. The game is FAR better for having rivens than not. 

Edited by Hypernaut1
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2 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

But why not though? Everyone's isn't rolling that.

Is it wrong that it's possible to get an AWESOME mod? That's just sounds surreal to me. Do people not like the chancd for something great? It's like self defeating, just so no one else can enjoy it either.

It's not like this mod completely breaks the game and gives a player God mode. it simply means they got lucky. Isn't that a staple of MANY arpgs? Someone will always have some crazy awesome item they rolled?

I have an awesome aklex mod too, but it doesn't mean I'm regulated to using it. Because of rivens, I can also use my akzani or wraith twin viper. They may not be as strong DPS wise, but they are still plenty strong with the rivens that I can comfortably take them anywhere I would take my aklex. I really don't see how my game was made worse by having a good aklex mod.

In fairness, it also results in this kind of nonsense:

 

47QpyPd.jpg

Nub18hI.jpg

 

So I'm kind of ok with that.

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This thread has gotten a little echo-chamber-y.

 

I'll try one more time to explain what I think is so wrong with Rivens and hope I will get a counter to this point in particular this time.

One of Warframe's greatest strengths as a F2P is that (nearly) everything is attainable. If you want that Warframe, you can grind for that Warframe. Want that mod? Go do this thing to grind for that mod. Want to be more powerful? Get that Endo/Credit farm on. Everything outside the Prime Vault, Baro's inventory, and a few remaining event exclusive mods can be farmed for at any time through a clear path. It is a simple "do this, then get this within a reasonable variance of time". And even for those exclusive items, you know they will come back, and you know you will be able to get the exact same item someone else does.

 

Everything is attainable.

... except Rivens.

 

Unlike every other item in Warframe, you can't target something you want and get it within a reasonable variance of time. It is statistically unreasonable for you to be able to grind for this specific thing you want or someone else has.

The whole thing about not 'needing' the best roll possible is irrelevant. You don't 'need' the vast majority of weapons, Warframes and mods in game but that has been no excuse to give them absolutely absurd RNG mechanics. Some things may be a hell of a grind like Sibear or Condition Overload, but you know that at the end of the day you will probably get the exact item you are looking for. I would gladly put in a Sibear-level farm to a single Riven mod to be the 'perfect' mod for me, but I just can't guarantee that will ever happen. This is about being able to see an item and work for that item, something that just doesn't exist with Rivens.

 

So my question is, why is it okay for Rivens to break this status quo and why wouldn't it be better if they did fit into the status quo of power progression?

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36 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

This thread has gotten a little echo-chamber-y.

 

I'll try one more time to explain what I think is so wrong with Rivens and hope I will get a counter to this point in particular this time.

One of Warframe's greatest strengths as a F2P is that (nearly) everything is attainable. If you want that Warframe, you can grind for that Warframe. Want that mod? Go do this thing to grind for that mod. Want to be more powerful? Get that Endo/Credit farm on. Everything outside the Prime Vault, Baro's inventory, and a few remaining event exclusive mods can be farmed for at any time through a clear path. It is a simple "do this, then get this within a reasonable variance of time". And even for those exclusive items, you know they will come back, and you know you will be able to get the exact same item someone else does.

 

Everything is attainable.

... except Rivens.

 

Unlike every other item in Warframe, you can't target something you want and get it within a reasonable variance of time. It is statistically unreasonable for you to be able to grind for this specific thing you want or someone else has.

The whole thing about not 'needing' the best roll possible is irrelevant. You don't 'need' the vast majority of weapons, Warframes and mods in game but that has been no excuse to give them absolutely absurd RNG mechanics. Some things may be a hell of a grind like Sibear or Condition Overload, but you know that at the end of the day you will probably get the exact item you are looking for. I would gladly put in a Sibear-level farm to a single Riven mod to be the 'perfect' mod for me, but I just can't guarantee that will ever happen. This is about being able to see an item and work for that item, something that just doesn't exist with Rivens.

 

So my question is, why is it okay for Rivens to break this status quo and why wouldn't it be better if they did fit into the status quo of power progression?

As myself and others have touched on earlier, the status quo was becoming dull, copy paste meta builds, safe and predictable.

it seems just a question of perspective, Rivens give a chance of acquiring something special and unique. Some people embrace that, the idea that it’s possible appeals to them. Others don’t want to take that chance, would rather they were removed, better all mediocre than risk not being special themselves. others want them to to be changed, so stats can be locked and manipulated in certain directions, either not realising or not caring that when all rivens are special, none are.

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28 minutes ago, (PS4)obsidiancurse said:

As myself and others have touched on earlier, the status quo was becoming dull, copy paste meta builds, safe and predictable.

it seems just a question of perspective, Rivens give a chance of acquiring something special and unique. Some people embrace that, the idea that it’s possible appeals to them. Others don’t want to take that chance, would rather they were removed, better all mediocre than risk not being special themselves. others want them to to be changed, so stats can be locked and manipulated in certain directions, either not realising or not caring that when all rivens are special, none are.

What have Rivens done to change that? The "best" Rivens are failing on the exact same notes as the rest of the modding system, and if you get something that is "special or unique" then it is objectively inferior to someone else's Riven. And what if I want some "special or unique" traits on my Riven? What then? It is not like I can target a special trait for a Riven. Maybe I want to get something like +reload speed on a weapon but instead I get a "god roll". Oh no, there goes my "unique"ness.

Rivens changed nothing in the meta besides shifting the power-creep up a degree (something I am not inherently against), they only changed builds by making them easier to min-max in some cases, the opposite of creating unique builds.

 

I am all for systems and game mods that are fitted to a niche within the community, but something like Rivens should not do that. Rivens should be for everyone, not just people who tolerate gambling their time.

Simply the fact that there are so many people who dislike the ultimate end-game progression should be enough to say there should be change. The end-game progression in a game should not be a controversial topic and should be liked/enjoyed by an overwhelming majority. As I discussed earlier, if Rivens were not an end-game progression system that gave you more power but instead were just a customization system that kept the power of the weapon they were equipped on static, having a slot machine would be fine.

 

I have made this example before but I guess it needs reiterating. Imagine if the amount of endo required to rank up Serration was variable. Where some would only have to spend 1000 to max it, some only 10,000, but some unlucky folk would need to spend 100,000. That is basically what Rivens are to a lot of people, even if you personally don't feel that way.

 

Edit: And if you want Rivens to be something to create "unique" builds, that's fine, but at last let me target it. If I want to get a specific list of QoL stats on my Riven then I shouldn't have to pray to get them, I should be able to target and work for them.

Edited by DrBorris
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38 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

What have Rivens done to change that? The "best" Rivens are failing on the exact same notes as the rest of the modding system, and if you get something that is "special or unique" then it is objectively inferior to someone else's Riven. And what if I want some "special or unique" traits on my Riven? What then? It is not like I can target a special trait for a Riven. Maybe I want to get something like +reload speed on a weapon but instead I get a "god roll". Oh no, there goes my "unique"ness.

Rivens changed nothing in the meta besides shifting the power-creep up a degree (something I am not inherently against), they only changed builds by making them easier to min-max in some cases, the opposite of creating unique builds.

 

I am all for systems and game mods that are fitted to a niche within the community, but something like Rivens should not do that. Rivens should be for everyone, not just people who tolerate gambling their time.

Simply the fact that there are so many people who dislike the ultimate end-game progression should be enough to say there should be change. The end-game progression in a game should not be a controversial topic and should be liked/enjoyed by an overwhelming majority. As I discussed earlier, if Rivens were not an end-game progression system that gave you more power but instead were just a customization system that kept the power of the weapon they were equipped on static, having a slot machine would be fine.

 

I have made this example before but I guess it needs reiterating. Imagine if the amount of endo required to rank up Serration was variable. Where some would only have to spend 1000 to max it, some only 10,000, but some unlucky folk would need to spend 100,000. That is basically what Rivens are to a lot of people, even if you personally don't feel that way.

 

Edit: And if you want Rivens to be something to create "unique" builds, that's fine, but at last let me target it. If I want to get a specific list of QoL stats on my Riven then I shouldn't have to pray to get them, I should be able to target and work for them.

At this point the only conclusion to be had is that some people really like rivens and some people don't. The very reason why some hate them, is the same reason why others love them. 

That said...I still don't see how they're bad for the game, whether you like them or not. Even those that hate rivens talk of grinding, trading and doing sorties to get them. In the end, both those that hate and like rivens play the game and utilize the system. 

Rivens don't break the game or force a meta. At this point, it's simply about opinion if you think they're nice or not

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7 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

That said...I still don't see how they're bad for the game, whether you like them or not. Even those that hate rivens talk of grinding, trading and doing sorties to get them. In the end, both those that hate and like rivens play the game and utilize the system. 

They are 'bad' by the extension that they could be better.

  • In World A some people like Rivens (where we are now)
  • In World B most people like Rivens

World A is not inherently "bad", maybe Rivens made World A better. However, I think we can both agree World B is better than World A.

I hate Rivens because I want to like them. I want something that I feel respects my time investment. I want something to put hours of grind into. I want something to take my favorite 'bad' weapons and make them great. But Rivens, for me and many others, just aren't fun or feel rewarding.

Edited by DrBorris
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Rivens fit perfectly into the model and no doubt are statistically evaluated by DEs analytics to have made them bank and be popular with the player base, a resounding success all around.

AND they seem to be incredibly popular with the player base. Any tiny vocal minority saying they don't like them on the forum or have quit is going to be completely drowned out by the facts DE can see: millions of plat being traded, huge amount of players playing and time sunk in grinding over them, huge demand from the markets, newish and vet alike.

WF is a F2P, which always means there are design decisions that make the game worse. It is what it is

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59 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

They are 'bad' by the extension that they could be better.

  • In World A some people like Rivens (where we are now)
  • In World B most people like Rivens

World A is not inherently "bad", maybe Rivens made World A better. However, I think we can both agree World B is better than World A.

I hate Rivens because I want to like them. I want something that I feel respects my time investment. I want something to put hours of grind into. I want something to take my favorite 'bad' weapons and make them great. But Rivens, for me and many others, just aren't fun or feel rewarding.

What leads you to believe that "most people" don't like rivens???....I think it's most likely quite the opposite

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