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Can someone give me bullet points on why rivens are so terrible?


Hypernaut1
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il y a 20 minutes, Teliko_Freedman a dit :

This is probably going to be very unpopular so...

If it were up to me, I'd remove all damage boosting anything from rivens, so the only thing it'll ever boost are non-damage related stats like reload speed, ammo, fire rate, etc.

But then rivens would literally have no meaning whatsoever.

You "Could" go for a |50%+reload speed / 30%+fire rate| or you could just strap on a basic 90+% damage mod from PoE that didn't previously fit in your slots because you had that one 300% damage/multishot/NEGzoom riven.

The only reason rivens are working right now is because they have straight damage boosting upgrades so removing those would be the death of riven, and prooooobably annoy the part of the community that participated in the riven economy. ( like... buying a riven at 50-100 plat then having every stats that you actually wanted manually removed by DE to give you useless things )

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4 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Says who, and why? Isn't that precisely what I just suggested? 

Why would lowering Riven prices be unlikely to increase trading volume? 

 

A lowering of the value of an item in a market is controlled by 2 things. An over surplus or lack of demand.  Since the actual quantities aren't changing in you scenario then it's just the demand is such that the market adjusts to a lower price to drive sales.

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Obviously if DE makes a drastic change to RNG that will cause a bigger upset, but what's wrong with making minor changes carrying smaller impacts? 

Considering whales are uncommon and it is practically impossible to accumulate tens of thousands of plat without trading Rivens, wouldn't it then be safe to assume that if Riven prices were lower...

More players might buy plat specifically to use for Rivens?

I do not consider your ideas minor changes. tweaks to some numbers is fine, the actual stats can and should be changed via disposition. As long as those numbers are not the RNG to getting the rolls it's probably fair game. Until DE puts out something else that's really exclusive and in demand and takes the spot of rivens in the market, which will probably happen at some point, is out of bounds for now.  

As for lowering prices for items that players trade for prompting more players to buy plat. That would be the secret sauce for F2P studios, making more whales and dolphins. Usually it's about 5% of the player base in F2Ps that fund most of it. The scenario would be that whales up their spending to spur more riven buying at a lower price. I guess that could happen, but don't see the mechanism for that to be the case, and rivens are capped at 90. So 90 rivens at higher price makes more than 90 at a lower price.

Even extended to the less relevent funders of the game, I still don't see the mechanism, people are already getting affordable rivens. This 20k riven hyperbole is irrelevent.

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Nope.

  • Transmuting requires 4 Rivens instead of just 1.
  • Transmuting might produce a non-Shotgun Riven whereas re-rolling the specific weapon on a Shotgun Riven would not change the Riven class or require additional unveiling. 

So how is your example relevant again? 

Let me put it this way:

You can buy 2 types of lottery tickets.

One type has 1/100 chances of winning. 

The other type has 1/50 chances of winning. 

 

No one can say. The 1/50 ticket might have worse prizes or is just a rip off. But the point you are ignoring is that the riven transmuter exists already, and does in fact handle the mechanic you want. You just don't like the RNG. And what I am saying is, that's the point. It's designed to be worse RNG.  The idea you would rather have doesn't fit in with WF's model. That's nearly all of the ideas people have to do about changing rivens, the idea needs to fit the model or it's just basically a wish list unsuited to WF.

 

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If it is plausible for increased market trading volume to benefit profits, how is lowering the paywall antithetical to the purpose of Rivens?

Isn't the purpose of Rivens generating profit?

Nope, that's just you being arbitrary.

While F2P markets do indeed hinge on exploiting player psychology, there is still room for variation and interpretation provided the ability to generate profit is not damaged.

My point is that while decreasing prices might reduce the value of individual trades, it would still be likely to increase the volume of said trades.

That's why I said profitability for players is NOT the same thing as profitability for DE. Sure, buffs to Riven RNG would lower the bottom line for individual traders... But it is DE's bottom line that actually matters.

I don't think it's likely to increase the volume of the trades, I think the opposite is more likely. The volume of rivens is fixed at any one time, a lower price point just means a lessening of demand more likely. You're essentially just trying to make them less valuable so their price goes down but make the leap that there are going to be even more people buying them to make up for the deficit of the lower value.

 

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That wasn't my idea, it was your spin on my ideas relating to reducing the highest prices. And of course you like it, because trader profitability is what matters to you. Am I wrong? 

What matters to me is irrelevent. It's what matters to DE and their design philosophy. But you aren't wrong in a round about way. It seems to be the case that trader profitiability, or at least a thriving market, is good for DEs bottom line. That's what matters. So getting a good idea and designing it with F2P monetization strategies in mind is how I am looking at the suggestions. And like I said at the start. no one has any ideas that work except ones DE has already implimented, ie modified disposition

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8 minutes ago, Ghogiel said:

A lowering of the value of an item in a market is controlled by 2 things. An over surplus or lack of demand.  Since the actual quantities aren't changing in you scenario then it's just the demand is such that the market adjusts to a lower price to drive sales.

No, alleviating the RNG increases the number of available Rivens. Increasing the number of available Rivens increases the number of Rivens with good rolls.

8 minutes ago, Ghogiel said:

I do not consider your ideas minor changes. tweaks to some numbers is fine, the actual stats can and should be changed via disposition. As long as those numbers are not the RNG to getting the rolls it's probably fair game. Until DE puts out something else that's really exclusive and in demand and takes the spot of rivens in the market, which will probably happen at some point, is out of bounds for now.

Again, says who? You? Haven't I been suggesting changes that don't touch the actual stat rolls? Making it easier to simply acquire Rivens could very easily be a relatively minor change depending on how much the drop chances are modified and the cost of re-rolling weapon type.

8 minutes ago, Ghogiel said:

As for lowering prices for items that players trade for prompting more players to buy plat. That would be the secret sauce for F2P studios, making more whales and dolphins. Usually it's about 5% of the player base in F2Ps that fund most of it. The scenario would be that whales up their spending to spur more riven buying at a lower price. I guess that could happen, but don't see the mechanism for that to be the case, and rivens are capped at 90. So 90 rivens at higher price makes more than 90 at a lower price.

But I guarantee you that lower prices = more players who actually bother getting 90 Rivens. Even assuming that a player can sell every single riven at a very high price, the math should be pretty obvious. What is bigger:

  • 1 player selling 90 Rivens for 20,000+, or...
  • 100,000 players selling 90 Rivens for 1,000?

That's not even getting into those players actually spending the money to get 90 slots, or those who would start buying platinum specifically for use on Rivens.

8 minutes ago, Ghogiel said:

Even extended to the less relevent funders of the game, I still don't see the mechanism, people are already getting affordable rivens. This 20k riven hyperbole is irrelevent.

Just because you don't see the mechanism doesn't mean it doesn't exist, and 20k isn't even hyperbole; Rivens actually do go for that much on occasion. Here, I'll even change the numbers for you. What is bigger:

  • 1 player selling 90 Rivens for 600+, or...
  • 100,000 players selling 90 Rivens for 150+?
8 minutes ago, Ghogiel said:

No one can say. The 1/50 ticket might have worse prizes or is just a rip off. But the point you are ignoring is that the riven transmuter exists already, and does in fact handle the mechanic you want. You just don't like the RNG. And what I am saying is, that's the point. It's designed to be worse RNG.  The idea you would rather have doesn't fit in with WF's model. That's nearly all of the ideas people have to do about changing rivens, the idea needs to fit the model or it's just basically a wish list unsuited to WF.

Stop being obtuse.

In this case, the prizes are the Rivens, which haven't changed. The available stats are the same, so both tickets are competing for the same prizes.

YOU are ignoring the point which is that increasing the odds of success will in fact increase the value of the lottery ticket that is a veiled Riven. Your Riven Transmuter counter-example isn't valid because it isn't even remotely comparable due to the differences I listed. Stop generalizing the ideas you're discussing because you can't handle discussing the specifics; my idea still involves RNG but the RNG is applied differently. That's kind of the whole point of the idea.

8 minutes ago, Ghogiel said:

I don't think it's likely to increase the volume of the trades, I think the opposite is more likely.

On what basis?

8 minutes ago, Ghogiel said:

The volume of rivens is fixed at any one time, a lower price point just means a lessening of demand more likely.

False. Improving Riven drop chances and RNG related to acquiring Rivens for specific weapons will necessarily increase the available supply. If the stats themselves are unchanged, why would the demand decrease? Are you suggesting that players only want Rivens because they are expensive?

8 minutes ago, Ghogiel said:

You're essentially just trying to make them less valuable so their price goes down but make the leap that there are going to be even more people buying them to make up for the deficit of the lower value.

No, I'm trying to make them less soul-crushingly random so that they better qualify as a reward for the players who get them rather than just an indirect gambling loot-box. This would have the side effect of reducing their value.

The most common argument against what I want is that reducing Riven value would be bad for the trading economy, but my counter-argument is that isn't necessarily true. Decreasing monetary value does not necessarily decrease demand. If the cost decreases and the demand remains the same, the volume of trades should therefore be likely to increase and help balance out any deficits. Based on how many players Warframe has, if DE plays their cards right the market could actually STRENGTHEN after such a change.

8 minutes ago, Ghogiel said:

What matters to me is irrelevent. It's what matters to DE and their design philosophy. But you aren't wrong in a round about way. It seems to be the case that trader profitiability, or at least a thriving market, is good for DEs bottom line. That's what matters. So getting a good idea and designing it with F2P monetization strategies in mind is how I am looking at the suggestions. And like I said at the start. no one has any ideas that work except ones DE has already implimented, ie modified disposition

Wonderful!

So, if:

  • The purpose of Rivens is generating profit,
  • A market with high trading volume is healthy,
  • Increasing supply (improving drop-chance/unveiling RNG) without decreasing demand (not changing stats) will increase trading volume,
  • And high trading volume correlates with increased profit from associated platinum sales...

How is what I'm suggesting a bad strategy for F2P monetization? Decreasing trader profitability does not necessarily equate to damaging DE's bottom line, and could in fact improve that bottom line instead. You can choose to believe that or not, but I'm fairly confident that the logic I've applied here is solid.

Is it possible that this would flub and work out differently? Sure. I'm not saying it's guaranteed to work, but simple logic should show that suggestions which might damage trader profits is not even remotely "antithetical" to the purpose of Rivens. Rivens are not about trader profits; they are about DE profits. Being more generous with Riven RNG could potentially improve DE's profits.

End of story.

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8 hours ago, DrBorris said:

You know, I gave you the benefit of the doubt. For a second I felt bad about calling you out. But then, to check, I skimmed through every single one of your responses in this thread.

You haven't from what I checked. You have responded to plenty of comments about Kuva farming, getting Rivens themselves, and disposition. All things that you could easily debunk to prop up your argument. But from what I saw, you never spear headed this point. Maybe I missed it, so could you lay it out plainly for me. Shouldn't take more than a paragraph.

 

Why it is better for Rivens to upset the status quo of progression?

No one is "calling me out". You're upset that I dont agree. 

What is "status quo of progression"? What's that even mean? 

I don't see many refuting my bulleted points as to why rivens are awesome for the game. People just repeat 

1. Disposition! Ok, but why does it matter? Sure, it could use tweaks, not saying it's perfect... But is disposition really breaking the game? Not everyone is running around with a suped up gram.

2. RNG! Ok, you some hate it some like it. RNG is a staple of ARPGs. Still don't see how it ruins the game. Especially acknowledging the fact that rivens are completely optional for the most part. It's an extra layer, not a necessary one. I see it as a bonus. Not something to rage about because it can't sell for 1k plat. If I get lucky, great! If not, transmute and try again. You're not supposed to 90/90 awesome rivens every unveil. That's just how I see it.

Status quo of progression? You mean like how stagnant weapon modding was before rivens? Players still progress the same way they did before, but when there's nothing else, they can start to collect up to 90 rivens. I don't see what's being disrupted. We all of a unique arsenal now with 90 boosted weapons. Even if everyone eventually collects a riven for the top weapons, there is still 60 or so weapons that remain down to taste minus a few very low tier weapons that rivens can't help...still a NET POSITIVE for the game. Status quo isn't necessary a positive quality, so calling it that doesn't really make it sound favorable to me. 

Having flaws don't make rivens terrible for the game, especially compared to the positives it has brought. 

And please, spare me the whole "calling you out thing". We'll just have to agree to disagree if that's going to be the fall back rebuttal. Either refute or ignore. 

Edited by Hypernaut1
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2 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Having flaws don't make rivens terrible for the game,

Where have people actually argued that they are?

You've been arguing wih people who don't like them, people who oppose them on the grounds that they've been detrimental to the market, people who dislike the fact that they aren't working logically or as originally intended, people who think they could be better.

I'm not really seeing anyone in this thread, and more importantly the threads leading up to this one, actually arguing that Rivens are truly terrible. Just bad, or not particularly satisfactory. That's leagues different to "terrible".

I think that makes your entire thread's premise a strawman tbh.

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7 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I don't see many refuting my bulleted points as to why rivens are awesome for the game. People just repeat 

1. Disposition! Ok, but why does it matter? Sure, it could use tweaks, not saying it's perfect... But is disposition really breaking the game? Not everyone is running around with a suped up gram.

2. RNG! Ok, you some hate it some like it. RNG is a staple of ARPGs. Still don't see how it ruins the game. Especially acknowledging the fact that rivens are completely optional for the most part. It's an extra layer, not a necessary one. I see it as a bonus. Not something to rage about because it can't sell for 1k plat. If I get lucky, great! If not, transmute and try again. You're not supposed to 90/90 awesome rivens every unveil. That's just how I see it.

Either refute or ignore. 

... Seriously? You're asking people to refute those points specifically...?

What a waste of frickin' time.

1. "Disposition is fine and doesn't actually matter."

People have already given numerous reasons why Disposition is badly implemented and broken. Your defense is literally your opinion that Disposition is insignificant.

2. RNG is fine because some people actually like it.

Once again, people have already given numerous reasons as to why they don't like Riven RNG specifically. Your defense is literally another opinion.

How do you expect people to "refute" your opinion? People have already given examples of functional problems with your bullet points, and you're not satisfied because they haven't changed your mind?

Why are you asking players to change your mind if you've already made it up?

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39 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

1. "Disposition is fine and doesn't actually matter."

People have already given numerous reasons why Disposition is badly implemented and broken. Your defense is literally your opinion that Disposition is insignificant.

 

And that point is again? How does it break the game? A few weapons are still underpowered and unfairly arrested-  is that the definition of breaking the game? The soma having a low disposition or gram having a high one causes what huge game breaking issue... I'm not understanding. 

At this point the thread can be closed because apparently some are getting overly triggered.

Despite what many day there were valid points brought up on BOTH sides. 

Edited by Hypernaut1
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My Ignis riven (from a quest) has kind of made the game boring for me, but it's the best thing I have at melting things above 150.

 

I don't really see any other weapon as a viable option for a sortie unless it's bow/sniper only, which is kind of a problem.

 

Just wish the weaker weapons had a better riven disposition because I've tried using a bunch of rivens and weapons, everytime they've felt extremely underwhelming. By that I mean they performed like S#&$, and I was extremely disappointing when I finally built my 100% Strun Wraith but it still doesn't do anywhere near the damage my Ignis does. 

 

 

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43 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

And that point is again? How does it break the game? A few weapons are still underpowered and unfairly arrested-  is that the definition of breaking the game?

Who said breaking the game? When I say Dispositions are broken what I mean is that Dispositions themselves do not function as intended.

43 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

The soma having a low disposition or gram having a high one causes what huge game breaking issue... I'm not understanding. 

It's the exact opposite of what Dispositions are supposed to do! Look at the Nikana stuck with a 1 Disposition because of its Prime, whereas the Dragon has 5!

Setting aside breaking "the game," as that's not the issue, why are the Pyrana/Tiberon/Gram not getting the same treatment? Isn't that exactly the opposite of making less popular weapons more popular?

Dispositions being broken =/= the game being broken, and the game not being broken =/= everything is fine.

43 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

At this point the thread can be closed because apparently some are getting overly triggered.

Despite what many day there were valid points brought up on BOTH sides. 

If you can recognize valid points on both sides, why are you still not satisfied with the answers?

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9 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

No one is "calling me out". You're upset that I dont agree. 

What is "status quo of progression"? What's that even mean? 

I don't see many refuting my bulleted points as to why rivens are awesome for the game. People just repeat 

1. Disposition! Ok, but why does it matter? Sure, it could use tweaks, not saying it's perfect... But is disposition really breaking the game? Not everyone is running around with a suped up gram.

2. RNG! Ok, you some hate it some like it. RNG is a staple of ARPGs. Still don't see how it ruins the game. Especially acknowledging the fact that rivens are completely optional for the most part. It's an extra layer, not a necessary one. I see it as a bonus. Not something to rage about because it can't sell for 1k plat. If I get lucky, great! If not, transmute and try again. You're not supposed to 90/90 awesome rivens every unveil. That's just how I see it.

Status quo of progression? You mean like how stagnant weapon modding was before rivens? Players still progress the same way they did before, but when there's nothing else, they can start to collect up to 90 rivens. I don't see what's being disrupted. We all of a unique arsenal now with 90 boosted weapons. Even if everyone eventually collects a riven for the top weapons, there is still 60 or so weapons that remain down to taste minus a few very low tier weapons that rivens can't help...still a NET POSITIVE for the game. Status quo isn't necessary a positive quality, so calling it that doesn't really make it sound favorable to me. 

Having flaws don't make rivens terrible for the game, especially compared to the positives it has brought. 

And please, spare me the whole "calling you out thing". We'll just have to agree to disagree if that's going to be the fall back rebuttal. Either refute or ignore. 

BETTER

B.E.T.T.E.R.

Adjective:

  • of a more excellent or effective type or quality
  • synonyms: superior · finer · of higher quality · greater · in a different class · one step ahead · more acceptable · preferable · recommended · a cut above · streets ahead · head and shoulders above · ahead of the pack/field
  • antonyms: worse · inferior

I don't care about good or bad, all I care about is better. Settling for something that works should not be the end goal, you should always be striving to make it BETTER.

 

Disposition is fine as it is sure, but wouldn't it be BETTER if disposition were balanced? Or are you saying it is BETTER that it is effectively arbitrary?

Stale modding? Please explain how Rivens change any of that, besides of course having a question mark over the time it takes to get a Riven you want instead of a consistent number for every player. I don't care that they are not necessary, that is completely irrelevant to the question of if they would be BETTER without RNG. Making excuses does not work when you are trying to decide what is better, so please stop making excuses. Make a point for Pete's sake. Like, you had a point in saying that the weapon you get a Riven for should have some random aspect as to encourage you to explore more of your arsenal. At that point it did come down more to opinion.

You know what is not a relevant point? Saying it is "net positive" because I can just come back with "well, what if it net MORE positive". You make some statements about how modding is stale and Rivens bla bla, but you don't actually say why or how Rivens made modding less stale. You never said why having RNG be tied to the stats was what made Rivens less stale. Are you saying that it is impossible for Rivens to be interesting AND not be RNG? Are you saying that those two things are mutually exclusive? If so, why?

 

I don't feel like you are disagreeing with me, from my perspective it looks like you are dodging me. If you think these things are BETTER please say why, I agree that Rivens are fine, and that is all you have been saying, you haven't really given many concrete reasons why Rivens are BETTER as they stand than the other options.

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3 hours ago, DrBorris said:

BETTER

B.E.T.T.E.R.

Adjective:

  • of a more excellent or effective type or quality
  • synonyms: superior · finer · of higher quality · greater · in a different class · one step ahead · more acceptable · preferable · recommended · a cut above · streets ahead · head and shoulders above · ahead of the pack/field
  • antonyms: worse · inferior

I don't care about good or bad, all I care about is better. Settling for something that works should not be the end goal, you should always be striving to make it BETTER.

 

Disposition is fine as it is sure, but wouldn't it be BETTER if disposition were balanced? Or are you saying it is BETTER that it is effectively arbitrary?

Stale modding? Please explain how Rivens change any of that, besides of course having a question mark over the time it takes to get a Riven you want instead of a consistent number for every player. I don't care that they are not necessary, that is completely irrelevant to the question of if they would be BETTER without RNG. Making excuses does not work when you are trying to decide what is better, so please stop making excuses. Make a point for Pete's sake. Like, you had a point in saying that the weapon you get a Riven for should have some random aspect as to encourage you to explore more of your arsenal. At that point it did come down more to opinion.

You know what is not a relevant point? Saying it is "net positive" because I can just come back with "well, what if it net MORE positive". You make some statements about how modding is stale and Rivens bla bla, but you don't actually say why or how Rivens made modding less stale. You never said why having RNG be tied to the stats was what made Rivens less stale. Are you saying that it is impossible for Rivens to be interesting AND not be RNG? Are you saying that those two things are mutually exclusive? If so, why?

 

I don't feel like you are disagreeing with me, from my perspective it looks like you are dodging me. If you think these things are BETTER please say why, I agree that Rivens are fine, and that is all you have been saying, you haven't really given many concrete reasons why Rivens are BETTER as they stand than the other options.

1. Everything could be better. That's not the point. Im asking why some think rivens are terrible, as I hear it often as a complaint. The entire game could be B.E.T.T.E.R. , doesn't make it terrible. 

2. I say net positive because no one has really refuted my points to why they are better for the game and the if the best additions. I'll go over it again.

Vet engagement. Do I need to explain this?

Vets have something to do compared to before rivens. I'm not saying it's the best thing in the world, but I think facts and data back up the idea that vets are very engaged in the riven system. Is that not a good thing? It's the most self perpetuating reward system in the game. B.e.t.t.e.r. than what we had before.

It livens up modding because it actually gives unique modding setups compared to the cookie cutters from before. It's B.e.t.t.e.r. than what we had before. Before we had to wait months between new mods to try something on the modding screen. With rivens I have an insanely fast charging miter, that also does great damage. How is that not livening up the modding process? I had to forma, rearrange a few mods, and even consider if even more speed would've benefited my miter DPS. It was UNIQUE to me, so I couldn't run to chat to see what everyone was doing. ( I swear Ive gone over these points without just saying "nuh-uh" but apparently no one reads my post).

Resource sink.

Players have been asking for an unlimited resource sink for a while....kuva gave us that. Do I really need to explain more? There are many players that do not burn themselves out farming kuva. And yes, maybe there could be better ways to get it but it's still b.e.t.t.e.r. than what we had before... Which was no sink and evaporating argon.  

I feel like I could go on, but no one is going to read it anyway and just come back with a "but you're not explaining, just saying nuh-uh". In many of my post I've gone into detail. These are my "net positives" compared to the complaints I read here about disposition, trade chat, and not getting every riven you want. The benefits outweigh the people impatient for that God stat riven.

I've said the RNG issue is an opinion. Not everyone likes static and guaranteed stats for everything. My proof of that is in the simple fact that RNG stats is a staple of the arpg genre. Rivens is the one RNG stats thing in the game. It provides variety that we didn't have before. Personally I think it's a good balance of RNG vs static in this game.

What am I dodging here? I've went into detail many times as to why, while I think it could use improvement, I don't see why disposition is a big deal. Most respondes to that is " BUT IT IS A BIG DEAL! Disposition is everything can't you see! Look at the gram!!"  And I look at the gram and have been trying to understand why it's a big issue? I've agreed multiple times that it could be raised for a few weapons. But I'm asking why there are some that freak out over rivens s being in the game. I never stated "rivens are perfect. Change my mind" 

At this point I expect my entire post to be dismissed and to be "called out" for not providing any backing to my opinion....maybe I just don't understand what you all mean. 

Again, if you think rivens are good for the game, but could be better... No argument from me. We agree. But if your opinion is "rivens are terrible for the game and DEs biggest mistake" I'm asking why and provide a solid argument. 

 

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13 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

maybe I just don't understand what you all mean.

Probably because your entire thread is a strawman, and strawmen aren't the basis of a solid argument?

Once again.

13 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Im doing why some think rivens are terrible as I hear it often as a complaint

Oh really? You can provide several sources then.

Where, in the threads leading up to this one, did people often unironically say Rivens are terrible for the game?

That does not include "rivens as they currently are are bad due to x reason", "rivens could be better", "rivens hurt the market" etc because those aren't even remotely the same thing.

I want to see you provide quotes from numerous people saying Rivens are actually terrible for the game, as you explicitly stated above.

Tired of me calling your arguments strawmen? Prove they aren't. Don't dodge it like a coward.

Edited by DeMonkey
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9 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Probably because your entire thread is a strawman, and strawmen aren't the basis of a solid argument?

Once again.

Oh really? You can provide several sources then.

Where, in the threads leading up to this one, did people often unironically say Rivens are terrible for the game?

That does not include "rivens as they currently are are bad due to x reason", "rivens could be better", "rivens hurt the market" etc because those aren't even remotely the same thing.

I want to see you provide quotes from numerous people saying Rivens are actually terrible for the game, as you explicitly stated above.

Tired of me calling your arguments strawmen? Prove they aren't. Don't dodge it like a coward.

I'm afraid of you master debator.  I can't bear to be called out on my strawman, logical fallacy, slippery slope, dippety pope arguments, by you again. I'll go back to running from you now.  Your insults are too much for me and my cowardice.

Cue another scathing response from you that's doesn't address the topic but why you don't like what I say and me continuing to ignore your post to me. 

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1 hour ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I'm afraid of you master debator.  I can't bear to be called out on my strawman, logical fallacy, slippery slope, dippety pope arguments, by you again. I'll go back to running from you now.  Your insults are too much for me and my cowardice.

So once again, you dodge. 

Do you see why I say you're dishonest? Debating with you is an exercise in futility, because for some reason you feel like you should get a free pass on what amounts to basically lying. You do this repeatedly, and whinge and moan when it gets pointed out. I'm not the only one who has noticed this. Why are you stubbornly refusing to actually engage with and debate like an adult? No strawmen, no misconstruing other's words, no mocking nicknames, no hiding from arguments just because you don't like them.

And don't pretend for a second that you haven't attempted to insult me, your whole mocking "master debator" crap is an attempt to insult me.

Grow up Hypernaut. Until you do I am not going to stop pointing this stuff out, because to be perfectly honest, I enjoy it. I find your attempts to wriggle out of this to be funny.

I want constructive discussion, I don't necessarily go about it in the officially approved way, but that's basically why I post nowadays. What you post, and the way you debate, is entirely antithetical to that.

Cute edit. You see though Hypernaut, I'm asking you to back up your information. That makes my post on topic.

Your response is moaning about my post, which is off topic.

Edited by DeMonkey
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14 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I'm afraid of you master debator.  I can't bear to be called out on my strawman, logical fallacy, slippery slope, dippety pope arguments, by you again. I'll go back to running from you now.  Your insults are too much for me and my cowardice.

using sarcasm also wont help you with anyone just a heads up if you didn't want a serious discussion just say so because rereading all now 12 pages of this its just a back and forth of opinions fighting opinions and nothing is happening since neither side seems to want to budge in there ideas its like putting oil and water in a bottle and telling it to mix completely 

people have told you what they don't like about rivens and you dismissed them with your opinions as your only standing point and people have told you that

its almost as if liking and hating them is a matter of opinion and this whole discussion is bloody pointless back and forth with i disagree because my opinion is different and nothing is going anywhere since neither side is willing to listen and hear out the other due to already had bias to rivens positive or negative and those who do try are swept under the rug as riven envy or what ever so they don't have to engage it *eye rolling intensifies* watching someone doing shadow raid on death sentence is more entertaining then this whole discussion 

as far as i'm concerned this is just wasting everyone's time with this discussion since its not going anywhere much like a dog chasing its tail 

Edited by seprent
forgot a word
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It's amazing how I make a post with bullets points... Yet people are saying I'm not trying to make any points and just being dismissive. Yet no one addresses a single point I've said. 

I guess I'm the crazy one. I haven't made one post simply attacking someone unless it's in response to someone trying to berate me for not agreeing.

The last two post are several paragraphs literally ignoring everything in my last post on topic. And that post is specifically addressing the points in the quoted post.

I'm going to ignore you guys. There are several post with substance that I've responded to directly. I'm not the only one posting in this thread. 

I challenge you respond without a personal attack AT ALL and addressing my on topic points....should be easy for a Master Debator.

Edited by Hypernaut1
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How are there pages of discussion about riven prices by people that haven't traded any volume of rivens at any point?

- There is no large volume of trades of rivens with a price tag of thousands of plat. These sales happen between some traders/whales and are completely detached from the majority of riven trades that happen below 1k. Quite a number of these players are long time players that have bought Prime Access etc. frequently and just have nothing else to spent their plat on. There are people that have accumulated lots of plat over the lifetime of this game and are willing to spent incredible amounts on the best items available so at the very top end prices are very distorted - just as in every other luxury item market. Also some of these highly priced rivens never sell, they are more or less a "I do not want to sell but for that much plat I can't say no" prices or a moonshot by people not realizing how small the volume of trades in this area is compared to the general riven trading that is going on. I have some rivens like that and they did sell - but that was never fast or easy!

- Prices of veiled rivens strongly correlate with the expected value of the available rivens from their specific weapon type. Veiled melee rivens just recently dropped down to their usual price range after the price surge caused by Plague Kripath, Gram Prime, and Paracesis, all of which still fetch good prices. Recently (as in since the weekend) veiled pistol rivens are harder to come by with Kitguns on the horizon, being often priced on par with melee rivens. Both types are still nowhere near rifle and shotgun rivens, as the expected value of the average drop from those is much higher since it is not just supported by a few "shooting stars" that drive up the prices but a broad range of somewhat valuable rivens. But you could also get some trash that would be priced below the actual veiled riven, so to make a net profit you need numbers and be efficient at unveiling - that is where you can actually make reasonable amounts of plat as a trader.

- Rolling a riven dozens of times for good stats is rarely effective if you are just looking to make some plat. Can't remember the name of the guy but there is some Youtuber that does 100 rerolls of rivens every week or so and even then he rarely gets the super rare near perfect rolls. Getting sufficient Kuva to make that many rolls happen takes about 20 to 25 hours of Kuva Survival, if that is your thing that won't be a problem but if you can't stand the perpetual mobile defense that Kuva Survival is you are just wearing yourself out. As a result the only rivens with large numbers of rerolls you frequently see are the highest value items available, e.g. Lanka or Rubico right now since this the only place where you can expect a significant increase in price by getting an somewhat good roll and a massive price increase with a top tier roll. So people rarely go far past 9 rerolls on most rivens if they are looking to trade.

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41 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

It's amazing how I make a post with bullets points... Yet people are saying I'm not trying to make any points and just being dismissive. Yet no one addresses a single point I've said. 

I guess I'm the crazy one. I haven't made one post simply attacking someone unless it's in response to someone trying to berate me for not agreeing.

The last two post are several paragraphs literally ignoring everything in my last post on topic. And that post is specifically addressing the points in the quoted post.

I'm going to ignore you guys. There are several post with substance that I've responded to directly. I'm not the only one posting in this thread. 

I challenge you respond without a personal attack AT ALL and addressing my on topic points....should be easy for a Master Debator.

My first post in this thread....

On 2018-10-27 at 1:38 PM, DrBorris said:

Cow poo...

You have been in plenty of threads where I know for certain that I gave reasons that Rivens are bad. But fine, I'll play your little game.

 

I am going to intentionally set a 5 min timer on this for me, as I don't want to get too lengthy. Apologies if I miss something.

  • They completely undermine the linear vertical Progression that is consistent in the rest of Warframe. In general, if you want to get more powerful you just put in time. RNG is not much of a factor. This can easily be seen in ranking mods with Endo as well as Mastery Rank. Rivens, on the other hand, are a complete slave to RNG. You can't "work" for them. And on the other side, someone's first Riven could be a Tiberon Riven rolled for crit stats. You can just get lucky and bypass the whole 'grind' aspect to Rivens.
  • If you have a weapon that you like mechanically, but is of a lower tier, you have to either pray to RNGesus or go through the market. If Rivens are a system to make less powerful weapons you like more powerful, the marketplace should NOT be mandatory.
  • Rivnes are a slave to the exact same system as the rest of mods, Crit/Damage/multishot (and occasionally status) are still always the best.
  • Disposition is broken because it is never updated, but even if it was, disposition based on popularity is broken because it does not account for...
    • Ease of acquisition of weapons
    • Niche synergies
    • Exclusive items
    • The distribution of low level to high level players (for example a lot of new players use Braton, does that mean it should have a low disposition?)
    • How "fun" or "cool" a weapon is to use (ex: Paracesis)
    • "Reactive" disposition resulting in unstable dispositions
  • Not everyone finds slot machines fun...
  • And, most importantly, They could be so much better.

It's been 8 min now, just some final words...

I would absolutely love for an end-game progression system where you took your favorite weapons and put a ton of grind into making them great. But that is not what Rivens are most of the time. You are spot on as Rivens creating a reward that veterans can grind and grind and grind for, that is the best thing Rivens are doing. But a grindy grind does not have to be tied to a slot machine.

 

Edit: Summing it up in a few words: I want something to WORK for, not PRAY for.

And a major point is that some of the things you listed are a good thing that Rivens do, like the grind, but that does not mean that those points could not be extended to a different system that, for example, wasn't RNG dependent. Literally none of your points in the OP necessitate the RNG stats of Rivens, they are all independent of RNG.

 

Here is the way I look at it, and why I think Rivens are "bad" for Warframe...

End-game weapon progression is a void in Warframe that many, many people would like to see filled. This void is somewhat filled by Rivens, but only partially. Having an endgame that is entirely RNG with little to no feeling of Progression (for a group of people that exists of indeterminate size) means that some people can't/won't use it. As long as Rivens partially fill that role, no other system can be implemented to also fill that void. You can't have to systems overlap like that.

So, while Rivens do some good for the game because they partially fill that gap, Rivens are also preventing another system from coming in to fully fill the gap. So, in that way Rivens as they stand are holding Warframe back which is, IMO, a "bad" thing. Thus, Rivens are "bad" for Warframe.

 

I'll use Parkour as an example. Parkour 1.0 was fine. It did the job, but because it was such a vital system in Warframe that players use so much, it being just "fine" was having a "bad" effect on the game as a whole. So, while parkour 1.0 was in some senses a superior movement system to what a lot of other games have, it was the context of the entire game that meant it was "bad" and needed a rework.

Swap "Parkor" for "Rivens" in that example and you have how I feel about Rivens.

 

Compare this to something like Nyx being a solid "meh". Nyx is just one Warframe out of a large roster, just because she is lacking it does not mean the game overall is hurting, you can just use one of the many other Warframes. Not to say she should not be fixed, of course you always want to be better, but her being in a bad state is not having an overall bad effect on the game.

Edited by DrBorris
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6 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

My first post in this thread....

And a major point is that some of the things you listed are a good thing that Rivens do, like the grind, but that does not mean that those points could not be extended to a different system that, for example, wasn't RNG dependent. Literally none of your points in the OP necessitate the RNG stats of Rivens, they are all independent of RNG.

 

Here is the way I look at it, and why I think Rivens are "bad" for Warframe...

End-game weapon progression is a void in Warframe that many, many people would like to see filled. This void is somewhat filled by Rivens, but only partially. Having an endgame that is entirely RNG with little to no feeling of Progression (for a group of people that exists of indeterminate size) means that some people can't/won't use it. As long as Rivens partially fill that role, no other system can be implemented to also fill that void. You can't have to systems overlap like that.

So, while Rivens do some good for the game because they partially fill that gap, Rivens are also preventing another system from coming in to fully fill the gap. So, in that way Rivens as they stand are holding Warframe back which is, IMO, a "bad" thing. Thus, Rivens are "bad" for Warframe.

 

I'll use Parkour as an example. Parkour 1.0 was fine. It did the job, but because it was such a vital system in Warframe that players use so much, it being just "fine" was having a "bad" effect on the game as a whole. So, while parkour 1.0 was in some senses a superior movement system to what a lot of other games have, it was the context of the entire game that meant it was "bad" and needed a rework.

Swap "Parkor" for "Rivens" in that example and you have how I feel about Rivens.

 

Compare this to something like Nyx being a solid "meh". Nyx is just one Warframe out of a large roster, just because she is lacking it does not mean the game overall is hurting, you can just use one of the many other Warframes. Not to say she should not be fixed, of course you always want to be better, but her being in a bad state is not having an overall bad effect on the game.

OT.... We've been disagreeing, but actually making post with substance. That wasn't addressed to you.

Edited by Hypernaut1
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22 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

My first post in this thread....

And a major point is that some of the things you listed are a good thing that Rivens do, like the grind, but that does not mean that those points could not be extended to a different system that, for example, wasn't RNG dependent. Literally none of your points in the OP necessitate the RNG stats of Rivens, they are all independent of RNG.

 

Here is the way I look at it, and why I think Rivens are "bad" for Warframe...

End-game weapon progression is a void in Warframe that many, many people would like to see filled. This void is somewhat filled by Rivens, but only partially. Having an endgame that is entirely RNG with little to no feeling of Progression (for a group of people that exists of indeterminate size) means that some people can't/won't use it. As long as Rivens partially fill that role, no other system can be implemented to also fill that void. You can't have to systems overlap like that.

So, while Rivens do some good for the game because they partially fill that gap, Rivens are also preventing another system from coming in to fully fill the gap. So, in that way Rivens as they stand are holding Warframe back which is, IMO, a "bad" thing. Thus, Rivens are "bad" for Warframe.

 

I'll use Parkour as an example. Parkour 1.0 was fine. It did the job, but because it was such a vital system in Warframe that players use so much, it being just "fine" was having a "bad" effect on the game as a whole. So, while parkour 1.0 was in some senses a superior movement system to what a lot of other games have, it was the context of the entire game that meant it was "bad" and needed a rework.

Swap "Parkor" for "Rivens" in that example and you have how I feel about Rivens.

 

Compare this to something like Nyx being a solid "meh". Nyx is just one Warframe out of a large roster, just because she is lacking it does not mean the game overall is hurting, you can just use one of the many other Warframes. Not to say she should not be fixed, of course you always want to be better, but her being in a bad state is not having an overall bad effect on the game.

You make a good point about parkour 1.0 compared to parkour 2.0. but it's still practically the same parkour. 

I would LOVE for rivens to be expanded on. Particularly in the stats that you can roll. The current stats are very boring and the equivalent to coptering in pakour 1.0. It works, but could be so much more and expanded on.

I'll address specifically why I think there IS progression with rivens. Don't mistake this as me just saying...."but it is progression" and dismissing your opinion without backing up my POV

I think the fact that you can save previous stats give rivens a sense of progression. Why? My braton riven started with +100 dmg. I roll it again, that stats are worse.ok...but I dont lose progress. I keep the better stats. So it's no real loss except grinding and using my endless resource sink (which I think is a positive). I continue to roll a few more times and RNG dictates that eventually I get better stats than the +100 damage. That's progress to me. My braton has become stronger than it was. I can keep rolling my rivens until I get better stats. I can't make my riven worse. The more I play the better I can make that riven to a point. After a while, RNG dictates that the chance for a better riven drops. The more rivens I acquire the stronger my overall arsenal. All things being the same, A vet invested in 90 rivens will undoubtedly have a stronger arsenal that a vet without any rivens. That's progress to me. A vet with 90 rivens that they've rolled tons of times would most likely be stronger than a vet that has 90 rivens that never roll a thing. That's progress within the riven system. 

Edited by Hypernaut1
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27 minutes ago, SirKnum said:

 

- Prices of veiled rivens strongly correlate with the expected value of the available rivens from their specific weapon type. Veiled melee rivens just recently dropped down to their usual price range after the price surge caused by Plague Kripath, Gram Prime, and Paracesis, all of which still fetch good prices. Recently (as in since the weekend) veiled pistol rivens are harder to come by with Kitguns on the horizon, being often priced on par with melee rivens. Both types are still nowhere near rifle and shotgun rivens, as the expected value of the average drop from those is much higher since it is not just supported by a few "shooting stars" that drive up the prices but a broad range of somewhat valuable rivens. But you could also get some trash that would be priced below the actual veiled riven, so to make a net profit you need numbers and be efficient at unveiling - that is where you can actually make reasonable amounts of plat as a trader.

 

I think rivens are decided when you first acquire them...so hoarding for kit guns may not work.

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39 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I think rivens are decided when you first acquire them...so hoarding for kit guns may not work.

rivens are decided based on 2 factors 
weapon type that one tells you right on the box melee shot gun rifle pistol ect
When the riven is unlocked it then picks what ever is available from the table at the current moment in time 

so if you wait for kit guns you can potentially get kit gun rivens of the rivens i've have and never bothered from past sorties before POE i finally rolled them and got stuff for zaws then gave them to friends since i don't use zaws alot and not have much interest in rivens i'm a weapon purest i guess ill use rivens if it gives me a funny effect but for sheer killing power i prefer just using normal mods 

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58 minutes ago, SirKnum said:

How are there pages of discussion about riven prices by people that haven't traded any volume of rivens at any point?

- There is no large volume of trades of rivens with a price tag of thousands of plat. These sales happen between some traders/whales and are completely detached from the majority of riven trades that happen below 1k.

Who said otherwise?

58 minutes ago, SirKnum said:

Quite a number of these players are long time players that have bought Prime Access etc. frequently and just have nothing else to spent their plat on. There are people that have accumulated lots of plat over the lifetime of this game and are willing to spent incredible amounts on the best items available so at the very top end prices are very distorted - just as in every other luxury item market. Also some of these highly priced rivens never sell, they are more or less a "I do not want to sell but for that much plat I can't say no" prices or a moonshot by people not realizing how small the volume of trades in this area is compared to the general riven trading that is going on. I have some rivens like that and they did sell - but that was never fast or easy!

So, in effect, you're saying that the market already operates at a high volume of low price trades, correct?

In that case, would you expect a dramatic decrease in Riven value if it became marginally easier to obtain Rivens (but not necessarily easier to obtain good stats)?

58 minutes ago, SirKnum said:

- Prices of veiled rivens strongly correlate with the expected value of the available rivens from their specific weapon type. Veiled melee rivens just recently dropped down to their usual price range after the price surge caused by Plague Kripath, Gram Prime, and Paracesis, all of which still fetch good prices. Recently (as in since the weekend) veiled pistol rivens are harder to come by with Kitguns on the horizon, being often priced on par with melee rivens. Both types are still nowhere near rifle and shotgun rivens, as the expected value of the average drop from those is much higher since it is not just supported by a few "shooting stars" that drive up the prices but a broad range of somewhat valuable rivens. But you could also get some trash that would be priced below the actual veiled riven, so to make a net profit you need numbers and be efficient at unveiling - that is where you can actually make reasonable amounts of plat as a trader.

Does the expected value of the Riven not also correlate with the probability of rolling a great weapon?

For example, Shotgun Rivens are valuable because there are relatively few Shotguns and many of them are very powerful.

Wouldn't allowing a Kuva-driven re-roll of the weapon itself (not just stats) therefore improve the expected value?

58 minutes ago, SirKnum said:

- Rolling a riven dozens of times for good stats is rarely effective if you are just looking to make some plat. Can't remember the name of the guy but there is some Youtuber that does 100 rerolls of rivens every week or so and even then he rarely gets the super rare near perfect rolls. Getting sufficient Kuva to make that many rolls happen takes about 20 to 25 hours of Kuva Survival, if that is your thing that won't be a problem but if you can't stand the perpetual mobile defense that Kuva Survival is you are just wearing yourself out. As a result the only rivens with large numbers of rerolls you frequently see are the highest value items available, e.g. Lanka or Rubico right now since this the only place where you can expect a significant increase in price by getting an somewhat good roll and a massive price increase with a top tier roll. So people rarely go far past 9 rerolls on most rivens if they are looking to trade.

Was this wisdom ever called into question? Given the increasing roll cost this seems like common sense.

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49 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

You make a good point about parkour 1.0 compared to parkour 2.0. but it's still practically the same parkour. 

I would LOVE for rivens to be expanded on. Particularly in the stats that you can roll. The current stats are very boring and the equivalent to coptering in pakour 1.0. It works, but could be so much more and expanded on.

I'll address specifically why I think there IS progression with rivens. Don't mistake this was me saying...."but it is progression" and dismissing your opinion. 

I think the fact that you can save previous stats give rivens a sense of progression. Why? My braton riven started with +100 dmg. I roll it again, that stats are worse.ok...but I dont lose progress. I keep the better stats. So it's no real loss except grinding and using my endless resource sink (which I think is a positive). I continue to roll a few more times and RNG dictates that eventually I get better stats than the +100 damage. That's progress to me. I can keep rolling my rivens until I get better stats. I can't make my riven worse. The more I play the better I can make that riven to a point. After a while, RNG dictates that the chance for a better riven drops. The more rivens I acquire the stronger my overall arsenal. All things being the same, A vet invested in 90 rivens will undoubtedly have a stronger arsenal that a vet without any rivens. That's progress to me. A vet with 90 rivens that they've rolled tons of times would most likely be stronger than a vet that has 90 rivens that never roll a thing. That's progress within the riven system. 

Ehhh, fine, it is a "progression" of sorts. But that brings me back to the whole "linear" thing.

Spoiler

I have thought about it a bit and kinda of want to pull back as labeling it as "linear" because honestly it is more logarithmic... (ignore the axis labels, I just googled an image)

log_standardisation_fig_3.jpg

What I am more worried about, with Rivens as opposed to everything else, is the variance of progression.

Good-and-bad-fits2.png

There is statistical progression in Rivens, but it is so gosh darn inconsistent. Some people get what they want in five rolls, some in twenty, and then there are people that go 300+ (my Clan Warloard is at around 350 on their Vectis Riven I believe). This kind of inconsistency does not exists (to such a high degree) as with every other form of power progression, which we can both agree Rivens are. I wish I could calculate that difference, but I have never been too great with the nitty gritty of statistical analysis.

I have said it so many times no, I want something to work for. I want to know that every Kuva I earn is getting me closer to my end goal. As it stands farming Kuva doesn't feel rewarding because I know that the 3k Kuva I just farmed only has a chance at getting me closer at where I want to go.

So far this is just my opinion, but here is why I think it could be a bit more objectively said that Rivens shoud not be so much RNG.

It is a similar feeling to a game being pay to win. It just doesn't feel good to know that the time you put into something isn't respected because someone can just buy their way to more power than you can ever get. Now swap "pay" for "get lucky". Both of these things are something the player, in-game, cannot control. I can't work for better luck.

 

Here is what I wish Rivens were...

  • You spend your initial Warframe journey in the "glorious imbalance of initial weapon progression". You watch reviews for weapons on YouTube, check stats, and target a certain weapon that you think will make you more powerful. Some people min-max their way through this, some smell all the roses, and most fall somewhere in between those two points.
  • Then you hit around MR15 and that whole idea of weapon progression is gone. You have peaked power and most everything is "mastery fodder", the joy of trying new things kinda dies.
  • Now imagine that Rivens were more readily available and more actively customizable. Rivens are no longer something rare and cherished, they are everywhere, but they take work.
  • Now every weapon you rank up could be as powerful as your peak, you actually care about trying/ranking new weapons up because if you like the "feel" of the weapon you know you can get a Riven for it and make it a beast.

If I knew I could get a Riven for X weapon and make it as powerful as my Tigris Prime than I sure as hell would be putting a lot more thought and testing into each new weapon I rank up. If I did not have to depend on getting lucky to bring this weapon up to a certain power, I would be much more likely to put the time into the weapon itself.

 

I know this is a major department from what Rivens are now, it basically flips the whole thing on its head. Where now you get a Riven and that makes you want to try a weapon, the suggestion would mean you get a weapon and then want to get a Riven for it. But this flipped relationship would be, IMO, far more healthy for the "meta" of the game. If everyone could maximize RIvens then the whole "meta" weapon scene would die off. Getting a new MR4 weapon would not feel like DE gave you a "useless" weapon because you know that if you like it, you can reasonably make it more powerful. Just throwing a number out there, requiring 8 hours of of grind to maximize a single Riven seems fair. Keep in mind with a system like this you would probably be grinding more Rivens for more weapons (and a simplification of stats would mean a higher Riven capacity).

I almost imagine Rivens as potatoes on steroids, if you put in the work for any weapon you can be guaranteed it will be one of the best. And while this is a very different system, I think it would far better fill that gap than what RIvens are now, even if Rivens as they stand do still have some positive merits.

 

I rambled a lot more than I normally do, probably has to do with having too much coffee today, sorry about that.

Edited by DrBorris
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