Can someone give me bullet points on why rivens are so terrible?

[Obviousclone]

It's 100% riven envy

 

you can even see it in this thread

 

every complaint about RNG, and how the riven market makes things the player wants unaccessible.

Keyword here is want. it's a want. not a need. If the riven is for something meta that you want then you don't need it, it's the meta weapon of choice. It's already head and shoulders stronger than everything else and can beat all of the content you would need it for. If it's for something non-meta, then the riven market makes it highly accessible, you can easily go to riven.market and find a that riven for 20p or less.

And the argument around RNG is 100% tied to riven envy since the premise of RNG is that there's a good outcome and a bad outcome. A desired outcome and an undesired outcome.

A wanted outcome and an unwanted outcome.

Envy, at it's core.

 

Rivens are designed to be an optional carrot on a stick for min-maxers, and this game as a whole is about chasing that carrot. And when you can't get that carrot it's frustrating, but by the time you get to the point where you've cleared out all of the games content and there's no more carrots to chase, then having this one impossible-carrot of impossible maximization is perfect.

[Betsill]

1 hour ago, -AiLuoLi- said:

Not saying it's DE's fault though.

It is though. You're not toxic or anything for pointing that out. The riven system is an absolute mess and DE designed it that way.

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

14 minutes ago, Obviousclone said:

It's 100% riven envy

 

you can even see it in this thread

 

every complaint about RNG, and how the riven market makes things the player wants unaccessible.

Keyword here is want. it's a want. not a need. If the riven is for something meta that you want then you don't need it, it's the meta weapon of choice. It's already head and shoulders stronger than everything else and can beat all of the content you would need it for. If it's for something non-meta, then the riven market makes it highly accessible, you can easily go to riven.market and find a that riven for 20p or less.

And the argument around RNG is 100% tied to riven envy since the premise of RNG is that there's a good outcome and a bad outcome. A desired outcome and an undesired outcome.

A wanted outcome and an unwanted outcome.

Envy, at it's core.

 

Rivens are designed to be an optional carrot on a stick for min-maxers, and this game as a whole is about chasing that carrot. And when you can't get that carrot it's frustrating, but by the time you get to the point where you've cleared out all of the games content and there's no more carrots to chase, then having this one impossible-carrot of impossible maximization is perfect.

Well said. 

I've asked in this thread, how does DEs timeframe of when they make changes to disposition affect your game play? Still no answer. Players rushing to the forums to say "Gram disposition needs a Nerf now DE." What part of Grams disposition is hurting your experience? You wouldn't even know if a player has a riven equipped to call them out on it.

It's just all envy. 

Also, there seems to be an idea that items that trade at a high cost are problematic in this game. No, they're called rare.

DE created their own problems by catering to so many whims and complaints that were unnecessary. It's gotten so bad now that the devs team doesn't even feel comfortable sharing their time frames or even Warframe themes anymore considering the constant complaints they receive if they try to have any creative freedom.

[(PSN)xtharbadx]

33 minutes ago, Obviousclone said:

It's 100% riven envy

 

you can even see it in this thread

 

every complaint about RNG, and how the riven market makes things the player wants unaccessible.

Keyword here is want. it's a want. not a need. If the riven is for something meta that you want then you don't need it, it's the meta weapon of choice. It's already head and shoulders stronger than everything else and can beat all of the content you would need it for. If it's for something non-meta, then the riven market makes it highly accessible, you can easily go to riven.market and find a that riven for 20p or less.

And the argument around RNG is 100% tied to riven envy since the premise of RNG is that there's a good outcome and a bad outcome. A desired outcome and an undesired outcome.

A wanted outcome and an unwanted outcome.

Envy, at it's core.

 

Rivens are designed to be an optional carrot on a stick for min-maxers, and this game as a whole is about chasing that carrot. And when you can't get that carrot it's frustrating, but by the time you get to the point where you've cleared out all of the games content and there's no more carrots to chase, then having this one impossible-carrot of impossible maximization is perfect.

I'm one of the persons who pointed out the issue with multiple RNG walls, and I can assure you that envy isn't at play. I could go to the riven market and just buy some.

For me, the issue is that rivens are basically dependent either on luck or on trading. No matter how much effort you put into it, you will always be limited by those two factors.

You have one chance at one riven per day if RNG is on your side and you get it as a reward on the sortie, and then you have to rely on luck once again for that riven to be for a interesting weapon ( fun to use or something worthwhile ). There's zero sense of accomplishment here.

With a pool of hundreds of weapons and only one chance per day to roll the dice, the end result is that you absolutely have to engage in buying and selling of rivens if you want to get anything good.

Imagine for a moment that you could not buy/sell rivens and you will see what I mean.

 

[DissentWomble]

Just now, (PS4)xtharbadx said:

Imagine for a moment that you could not buy/sell rivens and you will see what I mean.

 

Seems like envy to me if thats your point. I can't get a perfect riven for my Gram so no one else should? Why would I care if anyone else has that perfect Gram riven other than the fact that i'm envious? Its not like he can kill me or hamper my own experience in the game. 

[TheGrimCorsair]

Not a fan of lockboxes and slot machines, and that's rivens in a nutshell.

[(PSN)xtharbadx]

3 minutes ago, kambinks said:

Seems like envy to me if thats your point. I can't get a perfect riven for my Gram so no one else should? Why would I care if anyone else has that perfect Gram riven other than the fact that i'm envious? Its not like he can kill me or hamper my own experience in the game. 

No, I feel no envy, I'm just pointing out one the things that make this system flawed IMHO.

My point is that the riven system is 100% dependent on player market or luck. I prefer a system that rewards players by their effort, and that simply doesn't exist with rivens.

Like I said, if I want a Gram riven, I can just go to the player market and buy it, I just don't find that meaningful or rewarding.

The only RNG wall that I actually don't mind is the rolling of rivens you have. That you can work on, you can put effort in farming Kuva and get rewarded for it. There is a sense of accomplishment tied to the fact that you worked for it.

[iman00700]

Rivens are game beacking

As u already said in topic

[Varja99]

45 minutes ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

Well said. 

I've asked in this thread, how does DEs timeframe of when they make changes to disposition affect your game play? Still no answer. Players rushing to the forums to say "Gram disposition needs a Nerf now DE." What part of Grams disposition is hurting your experience? You wouldn't even know if a player has a riven equipped to call them out on it.

It's just all envy. 

Also, there seems to be an idea that items that trade at a high cost are problematic in this game. No, they're called rare.

DE created their own problems by catering to so many whims and complaints that were unnecessary. It's gotten so bad now that the devs team doesn't even feel comfortable sharing their time frames or even Warframe themes anymore considering the constant complaints they receive if they try to have any creative freedom.

I could not agree more

[DissentWomble]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)xtharbadx said:

No, I feel no envy, I'm just pointing out one the things that make this system flawed IMHO.

My point is that the riven system is 100% dependent on player market or luck. I prefer a system that rewards players by their effort, and that simply doesn't exist with rivens.

Like I said, if I want a Gram riven, I can just go to the player market and buy it, I just don't find that meaningful or rewarding.

The only RNG wall that I actually don't mind is the rolling of rivens you have. That you can work on, you can put effort in farming Kuva and get rewarded for it. There is a sense of accomplishment tied to the fact that you worked for it.

I disagree. Just because you say its not envy doesn't make it the case for you or the majority immature entitled posters in this forum who demands DE explain themselves about every little thing, make sad posts about their favorite frames being balanced, constant nagging about content and over reliance on youtubers opinions to create a mob mentality over things.

Being envious about other people having rivens you don't falls perfectly in line with the general behavior that we can see in this forum.

It fits perfect to your question just now. What would i do if I can't buy that perfect riven? The same entitled posters would make posts and threads on the main forums demanding devs to balance or get rid of rivens. Then fear mongering about rivens, laughing at people who invest thousands of plats to buy them. Its obviously envy. Just because you claim you can buy one whenever you want doesn't mean its the motive of every poster here. 

You either work to get a good riven or work on the game enough to buy one. Either way you put effort, you put your work on just as hard as anyone else. If it annoys you that people are buying them without working and using real world currency then thats not the rivens problem. Thats the same with everything else in game that you can buy with plats like arcanes and frames.

[Hypernaut1]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)xtharbadx said:

 

My point is that the riven system is 100% dependent on player market or luck. I prefer a system that rewards players by their effort, and that simply doesn't exist with rivens.

Like I said, if I want a Gram riven, I can just go to the player market and buy it, I just don't find that meaningful or rewarding.

The only RNG wall that I actually don't mind is the rolling of rivens you have. That you can work on, you can put effort in farming Kuva and get rewarded for it. There is a sense of accomplishment tied to the fact that you worked for it.

I know Riven stats are RNG, but technically, you can work towards better stats. This, I think, was a key factor in allowing us to preview a roll. You can always choose the better roll. So you never really lose progress on a riven, you only get chances at a BETTER one. 

Reading your post again, you do mention this in your last paragraph. To me that's the idea behind rivens. You can't choose your weapons, but you can roll what you have for better stats. Trading allows for collecting rivens for your favorite weapon. Rarity and the  market prevents chasing meta rivens, even NEW meta rivens that may be OP like the gram. 

Personally, I have collected over 100 rivens from sorties and GoTL rewards. I haven't been so unlucky to NOT unlock a few meta rivens myself. I couldve easily kept these highly sought after rivens or trade for another highly sought after rivens. I think it's by design that I don't have rivens for all top tier weapons without trading. 

[DeMonkey]

8 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

There's plenty to discuss here if you try to look. Why try to derail right now?

Then why don't you do that when I answer your question, instead of responding with "Bye" and then criticising me behind my back (virtually speaking)? That's how you derail a thread.

6 hours ago, (XB1)RDeschain82 said:

I'm annoyed at DE when they removed the Artax Riven because "it's (Artax) damage was to low"...

Gimmie my Artax Riven back!

Fair, wouldn't have hurt the game to leave it in.

1 hour ago, Obviousclone said:

It's 100% riven envy

Goodness this is tiresome. 

Okay, allow me to explain what you have done here. You have pretty much ignored the presented arguments, you have created one of your own and essentially given it to the people you are disagreeing with and you are attacking that argument.

As mentioned numerous times in the thread, that's a strawman, especially when it's so patently false as to be laughable. 

I can't even use Rivens because none exist for my Staff, I don't actually need a Riven for it to outdamage people anyway. I have a topish tier Rubico Riven I'm possibly going to use once every 2 months, if that, and several others for weapons I actually like, like the Quartakk.

What am I envious of, exactly? 

And once again, this ignores the fact that many people want less used weapons to have better dispositions more than anything else, and yes, that would require a toning down of the uppermost weapons.

Or do we just buff every weapon to a 5 disposition, thus making them nothing more than huge powercreep that frankly we'd be better off without?

Honestly, with so many of these posts focusing solely on top tier weapons, I've gotta wonder whether you actually think it's envy on our part, or fear of having your precious riven nerfed on yours. I won't construct an argument out of that of course because I'm better than that, but hey, food for thought.  

Edited October 28, 2018 by DeMonkey

[Hypernaut1]

25 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Then why don't you do that when I answer your question, instead of responding with "Bye" and then criticising me behind my back (virtually speaking)? That's how you derail a thread. 

👍👍i choose not to.  Hopefully we can mutually ignore each other's post and avoid personal critiquing in the future

Edited October 28, 2018 by Hypernaut1

[LupisV0lk]

22 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

As mentioned numerous times in the thread, that's a strawman, especially when it's so patently false as to be laughable. 

If it was so "patently" false then why is the fact that riven detractors never point out balance issues first but always go after their prices. Only to then fall back on "muh balance" when called out on their obvious envy.

[DeMonkey]

9 minutes ago, LupisV0lk said:

If it was so "patently" false then why is the fact that riven detractors never point out balance issues first but always go after their prices. Only to then fall back on "muh balance" when called out on their obvious envy.

That certainly doesn't apply to everyone though, and that doesn't (imo) stop it being a valid argument.

Are there some people envious? I'm sure there are, but that doesn't mean that they aren't a balance issue and it certainly doesn't mean the entire thing can be dismissed by trying to argue that everyone who dislikes them is envious.

The world is not that black and white.

[(PSN)xtharbadx]

47 minutes ago, kambinks said:

I disagree. Just because you say its not envy doesn't make it the case for you or the majority immature entitled posters in this forum who demands DE explain themselves about every little thing, make sad posts about their favorite frames being balanced, constant nagging about content and over reliance on youtubers opinions to create a mob mentality over things.

Being envious about other people having rivens you don't falls perfectly in line with the general behavior that we can see in this forum.

It fits perfect to your question just now. What would i do if I can't buy that perfect riven? The same entitled posters would make posts and threads on the main forums demanding devs to balance or get rid of rivens. Then fear mongering about rivens, laughing at people who invest thousands of plats to buy them. Its obviously envy. Just because you claim you can buy one whenever you want doesn't mean its the motive of every poster here. 

Not sure exactly why are you calling me immature or where exactly have I demanded anything from DE, or even why are you using my post to go on a rant about what other players are posting. Maybe post that aside?

You also keep insisting that I feel envy. You can believe whatever you want, entirely up to you. But remember that envy implies inaccessibility, and like I said, that is really not an issue for me. I can go buy whatever I want. That doesn't make me agree that the system is good.

47 minutes ago, kambinks said:

Thats the same with everything else in game that you can buy with plats like arcanes and frames.

Not exactely.

The thing is that those things you mention, you can work for. There is a sense of accomplishment tied to the fact that you put effort into it.

You can become an awesome Eidolon hunter, do multiple 5x3 runs per day and collect cool arcanes.

You can invest your time and effort into farming relics, cracking them and get your weapons and frames.

With Rivens thou, you are gated behind one dice roll per day, where more often than not, you don't even get a riven, much less one that you care about.

Edited October 28, 2018 by (PS4)xtharbadx

[LupisV0lk]

4 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

The world is not that black and white.

Oh it's not but to call the riven envy #FakeNews is rather disingenuous.

[DeMonkey]

6 minutes ago, LupisV0lk said:

Oh it's not but to call the riven envy #FakeNews is rather disingenuous.

I just don't think it's relevant either way. So what if some people are a bit grumpy they haven't gotten one they want? As long as they're capable of creating rational arguments it's of little concern to me.

Plus I was arguing against it being 100% riven envy, not that no one is envious.

[TouFuub]

8 hours ago, Toppien said:

you know they just did an overal balance on all weapons a few weeks back right?

like I would never know :>

[Makunogo]

think that is a bit of a stretch... 

12 minutes ago, (PS4)xtharbadx said:

 

The thing is that those things you mention, you can work for. There is a sense of accomplishment tied to the fact that you put effort into it.

You can become an awesome Eidolon hunter, do multiple 5x3 runs per day and collect cool arcanes.

You can invest your time and effort into farming relics, cracking them and get your weapons and frames.

With Rivens thou, you are gated behind one dice roll per day, where more often than not, you don't even get a riven, much less one that you care about.

one dice roll per day ? what are you even talking about. have u not heard of veiled rivens? seriously lol

i can unveil as much as i feel like. with the market. 

so are you implying the people who put their effort into earning plat is not an accomplishment? 

cus i work damn hard for my plat..

also sortie rewards are given random... is that not RNG? relic rewards are random. Eidolon hunting is hardly rewarding more then it is a necessary evil.

Edited October 28, 2018 by Makunogo

[Obviousclone]

40 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

 

I can't even use Rivens because none exist for my Staff, I don't actually need a Riven for it to outdamage people anyway. I have a topish tier Rubico Riven I'm possibly going to use once every 2 months, if that, and several others for weapons I actually like, like the Quartakk.

What am I envious of, exactly? 

 

Why do you feel the need to mention anything about outdamaging anyone?

It does not matter who outdamages who, to care about such a thing would be...

...envious...

would it not?

[(PSN)xtharbadx]

56 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Trading allows for collecting rivens for your favorite weapon

That’s the thing. It’s not that it allows, it’s that it’s mandatory. Unless you get incredibly lucky, you have no other option.

[DeMonkey]

7 minutes ago, Obviousclone said:

Why do you feel the need to mention anything about outdamaging anyone?

It does not matter who outdamages who, to care about such a thing would be...

...envious...

would it not?

Woooooow. That's what you took from that?

Pathetic.

If I hadn't said it, you would be able to quote me and say "you're envious because the staff sucks and could really use Riven". But the fact that I said it is also somehow envy, despite you not actually being able to provide any logic for it.

Damned if I do, damned if I don't, yes?

Gg, stellar argument, 10/10.

[(PSN)xtharbadx]

4 minutes ago, Makunogo said:

think that is a bit of a stretch... 

one dice roll per day ? what are you even talking about. have u not heard of veiled rivens? seriously lol

I’m talking about acquisition of rivens.

The only place where you can get them is on sorties, if you’re lucky, and that is once per day.

if there are other ways of acquiring rivens ( besides from buying them from someone else ), I’d love to know about that.

[Hypernaut1]

1 minute ago, (PS4)xtharbadx said:

That’s the thing. It’s not that it allows, it’s that it’s mandatory. Unless you get incredibly lucky, you have no other option.

But lots of ARPGs require trading to get EXACTLY what you want. For the most part I've gotten rivens for weapons I like and was hoping to get one for,  just not all of them. It's not like Every riven I unlock is for something I don't want to use.