Can someone give me bullet points on why rivens are so terrible?

[DissentWomble]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)xtharbadx said:

Not sure exactly why are you calling me immature or where exactly have I demanded anything from DE, or even why are you using my post to go on a rant about what other players are posting. Maybe post that aside?

You also keep insisting that I feel envy. You can believe whatever you want, entirely up to you. But remember that envy implies inaccessibility, and like I said, that is really not an issue for me. I can go buy whatever I want. That doesn't make me agree that the system is good.

Not exactely.

The thing is that those things you mention, you can work for. There is a sense of accomplishment tied to the fact that you put effort into it.

You can become an awesome Eidolon hunter, do multiple 5x3 runs per day and collect cool arcanes.

You can invest your time and effort into farming relics, cracking them and get your weapons and frames.

With Rivens thou, you are gated behind one dice roll per day, where more often than not, you don't even get a riven, much less one that you care about.

If you actually can understand my post it wasn't calling you specifically or the words immature and such are directed at you. The general posts in this forum, the general demands and entitlement the posters have about DE and some issues ingame doesn't really show maturity which makes it much likely what these posts about rivens are just envy rather than some general crusade for balance. 

Ie. I'm saying if you see a group and they're shouting racially bigoted stuff its more likely that they're just plain racist rather than have anything specific to fight for.

If you feel offended then please pardon my post. I have no ill intention but just pointing out being envious is much more likely than asking the game to be balanced in a coop game from the other posts in this forum.

About your effort post, I buy shiet rivens for 10p every day and transmute them which makes me need to do eidolons daily. Usually getting bad stuff I also waste hours doing Kuva farming to get enough Kuva to get a decent roll that I can sell at market. Which then I have to shout in trade chat or wait patiently for a buyer so I can farm enough plats to buy the Riven that I need. You think everyone who has a perfectly rolled riven bought them off with real world plats?

You're oversimplifying the process to make a point which is seriously misleading.  

[Makunogo]

Just now, (PS4)xtharbadx said:

I’m talking about acquisition of rivens.

The only place where you can get them is on sorties, if you’re lucky, and that is once per day.

if there are other ways of acquiring rivens ( besides from buying them from someone else ), I’d love to know about that.

the way you are putting it implies that we only have a chance at getting one per day to unviel. but nobody relies on sorties only to get their rivens.

[Hypernaut1]

2 minutes ago, Makunogo said:

the way you are putting it implies that we only have a chance at getting one per day to unviel. but nobody relies on sorties only to get their rivens.

I rely only on sorties to get rivens and I've been at the cap for a while now. Personally it feels cheap to just buy a riven. I take what RNG gives me.

There's just no pressing need to run to trade chat for me. I have gotten lucky with a few meta rivens and I've gotten transmute trash. I see rivens as a bonus, so I take what I get for the most part.

I still use my prisma Supra without a Riven and I still use my Arca without one. I've never felt like I was unhappy because they didn't have rivens. 

[Makunogo]

well that's fine if u dont like it. but posters like to condemn things other people do/aren't doing because they arent and that's just silly.

Edit: that must have taken a while to cap >.> even doing sorties everyday lol

Edited October 28, 2018 by Makunogo

[(PSN)xtharbadx]

11 minutes ago, kambinks said:

You think everyone who has a perfectly rolled riven bought them off with real world plats?

You're oversimplifying the process to make a point which is seriously misleading.  

 

16 minutes ago, Makunogo said:

the way you are putting it implies that we only have a chance at getting one per day to unviel. but nobody relies on sorties only to get their rivens.

No, I don't think that and I'm not implying it in any way, I'm just saying that it's 100% dependent on the market as a means to acquire rivens you actually care about, given that the chances of you getting it without using the market are pretty slim and completely unrelated to how much effort you actually put into it.

Doesn't matter if you play 8 hours per day, or if you play 20 minutes per day doing sortie alone. 

[Makunogo]

Just now, (PS4)xtharbadx said:

 

No, I don't think that and I'm not implying it in any way, I'm just saying that it's 100% dependent on the market as a means to acquire rivens you actually care about, given that the chances of you getting it without using the market are pretty slim and completely unrelated to how much effort you actually put into it.

Doesn't matter if you play 8 hours per day, or if you play 20 minutes per day doing sortie alone. 

 

i don't really see the issue with that.

[DissentWomble]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)xtharbadx said:

 

No, I don't think that and I'm not implying it in any way, I'm just saying that it's 100% dependent on the market as a means to acquire rivens you actually care about, given that the chances of you getting it without using the market are pretty slim and completely unrelated to how much effort you actually put into it.

Doesn't matter if you play 8 hours per day, or if you play 20 minutes per day doing sortie alone. 

Why wouldn't you consider the market as a source? Buying fodder rivens to make unveiled ones also being discounted? Its like you're putting that stipulation just to make an argument. A ridiculous one at that.

Edit : Games done downloading. I'll be off now.

Edited October 28, 2018 by kambinks

[Hypernaut1]

15 minutes ago, Makunogo said:

well that's fine if u dont like it. but posters like to condemn things other people do/aren't doing because they arent and that's just silly.

Edit: that must have taken a while to cap >.> even doing sorties everyday lol

Yeah, well I've been doing them since release. Been at the cap for a few months now. It's starting to get painful transmuting rivens as I'm beginning to close in on ones I actually like and don't want to get rid of. 90 slots may sound like a lot but it doesn't feel like it when you're at the cap.

Edited October 28, 2018 by Hypernaut1

[Makunogo]

i been sitting at 80-89 for the last 4 months  xD - i don't even use most of them. but some rivens take longer to sell then others >.> 

i suppose it can be hard for you to get a riven for new things that you may like. since that would require u to get more veiled from sortie 

1 minute ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Yeah, well I've been doing them since release. Been at the cap for a few months now. It's starting to get painful transmuting rivens as I'm beginning to close in ones I actually like and don't want to get rid of. 90 may sound like a lot but it doesn't feel like it when you're at the cap.

 

[(PSN)obsidiancurse]

For all their faults, they are the only thing that keeps me playing. They are the only thing that long term players need from the sortie and kuva is really the only resource I need to farm (except mutagen, cos ridiculous hema requirements).

they just need to run a balance pass. Dispo should be based on a weapons strength, and they need to update that each time they drop a variant. Ideally the dispo could be fluid, so the stats change depending on the variant on which the riven is slotted.

[Ryim_Drykeon]

*shrugs*

Why not just take the easy way? Make Dispo RNG on Unveil.

I realize you could come up with some real crap Rivens that way, but we do as it is now anyway.

[ProfessorLitmus]

16 hours ago, DrBorris said:

Cow poo...

You have been in plenty of threads where I know for certain that I gave reasons that Rivens are bad. But fine, I'll play your little game.

 

I am going to intentionally set a 5 min timer on this for me, as I don't want to get too lengthy. Apologies if I miss something.

• They completely undermine the linear vertical Progression that is consistent in the rest of Warframe. In general, if you want to get more powerful you just put in time. RNG is not much of a factor. This can easily be seen in ranking mods with Endo as well as Mastery Rank. Rivens, on the other hand, are a complete slave to RNG. You can't "work" for them. And on the other side, someone's first Riven could be a Tiberon Riven rolled for crit stats. You can just get lucky and bypass the whole 'grind' aspect to Rivens.
• If you have a weapon that you like mechanically, but is of a lower tier, you have to either pray to RNGesus or go through the market. If Rivens are a system to make less powerful weapons you like more powerful, the marketplace should NOT be mandatory.
• Rivnes are a slave to the exact same system as the rest of mods, Crit/Damage/multishot (and occasionally status) are still always the best.
• Disposition is broken because it is never updated, but even if it was, disposition based on popularity is broken because it does not account for...
  • Ease of acquisition of weapons
  • Niche synergies
  • Exclusive items
  • The distribution of low level to high level players (for example a lot of new players use Braton, does that mean it should have a low disposition?)
  • How "fun" or "cool" a weapon is to use (ex: Paracesis)
  • "Reactive" disposition resulting in unstable dispositions
• Not everyone finds slot machines fun...
• And, most importantly, They could be so much better.

It's been 8 min now, just some final words...

I would absolutely love for an end-game progression system where you took your favorite weapons and put a ton of grind into making them great. But that is not what Rivens are most of the time. You are spot on as Rivens creating a reward that veterans can grind and grind and grind for, that is the best thing Rivens are doing. But a grindy grind does not have to be tied to a slot machine.

 

Edit: Summing it up in a few words: I want something to WORK for, not PRAY for.

you should also add that rivens were and are just an excuse to not actually have a damage 3.0 overhaul and instead just throw it all at the rng wall to see what sticks at random.

[(PSN)teacup775]

Rivens are terrible in the sense that they are a bandaid on bad weapons. I know people who gave up on warframe because the cycle of mastery felt so stupid. Leveling “mastery fodder” weapons is simply an unpleasant, boring and souless process.

 

It’s hard to like or care about weapons with little or no personality and worse: terrible stats.

Edited October 28, 2018 by (PS4)teacup775

[Makunogo]

36 minutes ago, (PS4)teacup775 said:

Rivens are terrible in the sense that they are a bandaid on bad weapons. I know people who gave up on warframe because the cycle of mastery felt so stupid. Leveling “mastery fodder” weapons is simply an unpleasant, boring and souless process.

 

It’s hard to like or care about weapons with little or no personality and worse: terrible stats.

i disagree there is several weapons that are still S#&$ even with a dispo 5 riven. 

weapons do not need to be relatively good compared to each other, (weapon) balance is an illusion that players want but the game doesn't require DE at the very least tried to fix this slightly in their last rework changing the MR levels of the "better" gear to higher MR. 

what would have been good is the high tier weapons had a higher MR and therefore a lower disposition and the weak weapons a low MR and therefore a high disposition.

on big issue tho is that pretty much any weapon has the potential to be op with the right build regardless of its mr. but with some weapons having better base stats (obviously) of course some will do better then others. (look at my first statement) 

Example Dual ethers with the same build as dual keres. both of them have a pretty high riven dispo (i think) but the dual keres will always perform better because all its stats are higher. one could argue this is not balanced. but weapons are not inherently meant to be balanced anyway

DE isn't some robot that's gonna get everything right. its impossible

Edited October 28, 2018 by Makunogo

[Makunogo]

2 hours ago, Ryim_Drykeon said:

*shrugs*

Why not just take the easy way? Make Dispo RNG on Unveil.

I realize you could come up with some real crap Rivens that way, but we do as it is now anyway.

THIS is actually a pretty neat idea. but then Dipspo 5 rivens would probably be even more rare because technically the pool of them would be smaller (cus its random) but it does give the chance for any weapon to have a better weapon which is pretty cool..  im sure that would get a lot of backlash but since rivens are such a mess I would be more inclined to unveil my rivens if they had a mechanic like this

[(PSN)obsidiancurse]

2 minutes ago, Makunogo said:

THIS is actually a pretty neat idea. but then Dipspo 5 rivens would probably be even more rare because technically the pool of them would be smaller (cus its random) but it does give the chance for any weapon to have a better weapon which is pretty cool..  im sure that would get a lot of backlash but since rivens are such a mess I would be more inclined to unveil my rivens if they had a mechanic like this

It’s just another layer of rng though isn’t it?

and suddenly 99% of rivers become trash because they are not max dispo.

only way that could work is if there was a way to increase its dispo in game. They all start as zero but you can level them up somehow. Could become endgame in itself.

[(PSN)teacup775]

1 hour ago, Makunogo said:

i disagree there is several weapons that are still S#&$ even with a dispo 5 riven. 

weapons do not need to be relatively good compared to each other, (weapon) balance is an illusion that players want but the game doesn't require DE at the very least tried to fix this slightly in their last rework changing the MR levels of the "better" gear to higher MR. 

 

Your comment is entirely off point and poorly argued to boot. Thanks. 

Nowhere did I mention balance, only bad and not fun to master in a situation for somebody grinding for mastery, limited on mods and endo. Potential for OP? I’m talking -fun- not OP.  Add a potato and grind through Hydron for lvl 30 and forma simply to make it marginally op for some missions? Why when there is a pile more weapons to grind thru and limited slot space and potatoes?

For the most part the mastery cycle is also very weak. It simply makes grinding mastery faster if you bother to use a weapon to level it, otherwise mastery base capacity is utterly uninteresting. All this so you can rinse repeat faster on more piles of poo, for..?

All this for absolutely no meaningful element to game play or story.

 

 

[dreadgame]

The thing about rivens they're rng-based luxury items and some weapons don't need them to be meta. They help the game economy circulate plats and give some veterans something to do while waiting for a true end game.

 

My only complaints and suggestions to rivens:

1.) Lack of monthly disposition readjustments but if they do give it that make it move only by one every month.

2.) Maybe increase the gap in dispositions from 5 to maybe 7.

3.) Give multishot some fancy effects like triple spread bullets or peculiar-ish mod effects

 

Edited October 28, 2018 by dreadgame

[Soulden]

@Hypernaut1

My only, and only argument against Rivens.

It is nothing but another unnecessary layer of RNG with a steep timesink for vets.
You want a reason to use your other 300+ weapons more freely without the need for bandaids, do a better weapon balance pass, Rivens was the lazy (but financially smart) way out of it.

You can get a lot more of that multi-layered rng and time sinks out of any pay to win JRPGMMO, so lets not act like everyone joined Warframe for its depth.
I have yet to see the community to unite under one voice and ask DE to extend Rivens RNG stat allocation to Warframes and all other equipment themselves
( can't wait for the day...../s )

You forgot another bullet on favor of Rivens , it has increased DE revenue by a HUGE margin since introduced, you can tell by how ambitious they have become on development, that doesn't come cheap. This is needs to be added since is a very valid and powerful one that will affect the game until its end.

And yeah, your points are valid to an extend, as you said, not perfect system, but works.

Edited October 28, 2018 by Souldend78

[ArbitUHM]

No one is ever going to see eye to eye on this because it comes down to a moral or ethical stance on whether an RNG-based system can be fun, fair, or rewarding. As a pro Riven person, I really enjoy reading that the fun I'm having couldn't actually be real fun and that I'm a covetous monster (despite me having bought and sold a total of two Rivens, one of which was a Deth Machine Rifle Riven....). I'm sure the anti crowd really enjoys being told they are envious, irrational tryhards.

[(PSN)teacup775]

1 hour ago, Souldend78 said:

@Hypernaut1

You want a reason to use your other 300+ weapons more freely without the need for bandaids, do a better weapon balance pass, Rivens was the lazy (but financially smart) way out of it.

But Rivens could be something else entirely, or weapon improvment could enjoy another path that consume rivens (which would make even more revenue because “refining” rivens then consuming them for a weapon would mean there would be an endless sink) or re-roll system could be made expensive (in kuva) but with a definite progress path (lifeofrio suggested one).

 

Even more, if there was a reason to use the other 300 weapons or work on several. Right now weapons are mostly valued on their BF damage on enemies, but let’s say there were synergies akin to applying status by a gun, then using it to buff condition overload and there was a path to make them so.

I drag out BL examples: the rapier is a mediocre weapon.. in the hands of Zer0 it is godlike. Orphanmaker and ladyfist are amazing on Salvador (who is generally broken). Tediore in the hands of Krieg and Bloodlust. Anything explosive in the hands of Axton (fastball) or Krieg. Or anarchy and Gaige. Or Jackobs on Nisha...

Edited October 28, 2018 by (PS4)teacup775

[(XBOX)Dex Xean]

As long as the disposition of rivens never change to do what they were meant to do instead of its  current state of where it stays the same disposition for years rivens will remain flawed.

They were meant as a incentive to use non-meta or weaker weapons as of right now some rivens are more of a overkill to use a powerful weapon instead of a reason to use the weaker weapons or least popular ones.

[Autongnosis]

I have a couple of qualms but oddly enough i have rarely, if ever, seen them mentioned save for one of them.

Rivens are currently a rare-ish commodity. I think they should be much rarer than they are. Ties up into the next point. 

Rivens are a lot more about rng than about grind. If anything, imo acquiring rivens should be about grind and not a 1/day roll. Also, unveiling rivens shouldn't be about rng either, but about grind. Say you have to do 10k kills, oe eran 10mln xp with a gun or something. And the rolling process is again too much luck and too little grind. 

Rivens are also linearly effected by disposition which is imo not a good thing. It should work as an exponential curve more than a straight line. In the same gripe, giving a 5 disposition should be reserved to very, very bad weapons. 

Last but not least, Rivens fail in some respects. Some guns can't be really saved with % bonuses. Rivens for high disposituin guns (4 and 5 maybe?) should be allowed to modify base stats. 

 

As a side note, the idea behind Rivens working as a balance pass for lower tier weapons doesn't work to me. I mean that as in rivens should be about grinding to make your gun of choice extremely powerful to tackle on post-endgame content. 

There is no real reason to use rivens on lv 100- mooks unless you're using really, really low tier guns like the base Lato and stuff like that. Rivens (imo) should be about going further than the low 80s. And in the same note, I'd appreciate (personally) for the modes designed to be endgame, being ESO and Arbitrations, to actually use warframe level scaling to give at least numerically viable challenges. Have them start at lv 200 or something. Have them work for the people who actually took the time to master the modding and damage system. 

[SPplayer76]

Here are the points.

-Rerolling them is completely random, which means that you feel like you are making 0 progress, because you are, it doesn't matter how much you have rolled before, because rerolling them is like a lottery ticket.

-disposition doesn't do a good job. It makes terrible weapons useable MAYBE, while being the icing on the cake for already good weapons. 

-Acuiring kuva isn't fun. This speaks mainly to kiva siphons, doing them is tedious, annoying, and uninteresting. With your main goal being to pay the increasing cost of the reroll.

 

part of the reason disposition is bad is because it should be mr based, rather than popularity based, also if bad weapons are ever going to see the light of day, then they need to also additively influence base stats in addition to its normal mod rolls.

 

All this together equates to a system that is unfun, unsatisfying, and impossible to progress through.

[Makunogo]

9 hours ago, (PS4)obsidiancurse said:

It’s just another layer of rng though isn’t it?

and suddenly 99% of rivers become trash because they are not max dispo.

only way that could work is if there was a way to increase its dispo in game. They all start as zero but you can level them up somehow. Could become endgame in itself.

nowhere did i say i am against the rng lol.