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Can someone give me bullet points on why rivens are so terrible?


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7 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

You're comparing a powerful meta weapon with a riven against a lower tier weapon with rivens. Just because a high tier weapon with a riven does better than a low tier weapon with a riven doesn't make the system broken. Not everyone will have high quality rivens for all of their powerful meta weapons. What the system does is close the gap in power between your weapons. It's purpose isn't too make all of your high tier weapons obsolete.

My "anectdotal" story is trying to get the point across that rivens do close the gap greatly in comparison to meta weapons WITHOUT rivens. If you're going to deny this is never the case, then you're just being disingenuous. I'm not trying to say that all rivens make low tier weapons blow meta weapons out the water, I'm simply saying that it closes the gap and makes them comparable and viable in high end content. It seemed to me like you were implying rivens do nothing for low tier weapons, but still boost all meta weapons to imaginable levels.

Sure, if I had a riven for every weapon, it would make the power boost moot, but I don't, so that means they do indeed matter and make a difference.

Sure you can try to get a riven for all of your stronger weapons, but trade chat prices and RNG prevent that option for most people because of rarity. So the system still works in that regard.

The basis of your argument that only powerful weapons benefit from rivens is not based on evidence either. In fact I'm sure many people could link rivens right now that shows otherwise. 

I also don't consider it a flaw if the average riven for a low tier weapon doesn't turn it into a level 100 One-shotting monster. 

.... uh.... yes... yes it does...

 

Rivens were supposed to close the gap between popular weapons and not-so-popular ones. By the scenario you disputed; high tier weapon still outclassing low tier weapon sans their rivens + dispositions, the system itself is failing what it's supposed to do...

 

Does it bring enjoyment to us who do get lucky with the riven? heck yeah.

Does it do its intended job?

It makes the already trivial endgame even moreso in the case of high tier weapons while low tier weapons still remain a relative niche in endgame environment despite a higher functional level cap. Your anecdotal case is more of a logical fallacy at best. Perceived exclusivity behind rng doesn't mean godly rivens for high tier weapons don't exist. It does and given time people who invest their time in it can/will get it, by that point it denies the validity of riven closing the gap between popular and unpopular weapons. i.e. we can only go so far feigning ignorance by using perceived exclusivity as an argument for rivens.

 

The power gap is still there and it did nothing to make a lot of lower tier weapon more appealing over high-tier ones on the long run. 

 

Case in point, In the last week alone I still saw people run meta weapons in their setups and barely any if at all less popular weapons. Sure you can argue that might mean they lack the riven for either/ both the meta and less popular weapon but therein lies the logical fallacy in your anecdotal case. If they have a riven for a less popular weapon in their arsenal and not the more popular ones then why did they still stick with meta setups? Likewise if they have a good riven on their meta weapon, why would they consider using less popular weapons with rivens that is still outclassed aside from vanity value?

 

Not to mention I've banked over 30k worth of plat just selling decent rivens for high-tier weapons like tigris with dookie disposition whereas "low tier" weapon with high disposition like vasto saw less demand riven-wise still. I.e. people still lookout for higher tier weapon rivens moreso than lower tier ones, ergo the whole point for riven's purpose is still cloudy at best, broken at worst... This doesn't even account the borked disposition system; lookin at you Gram Prime.

 

54 minutes ago, (PS4)obsidiancurse said:

Gotta agree with this.

basically, can a riven turn a weapon that wasn’t sortie/arbitration viable into one that is? We know the answer is yes, so rivens aren’t broken and do achieve their intended purpose.

they are not perfect but they don’t break the game either.

3.0

.... If this is the case then I woulda seen or heard of someone bring an mk-1 strun or miter in either modes on a somewhat consistent basis.

Edited by Tsardova
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57 minutes ago, Tsardova said:

.... uh.... yes... yes it does...

 

Rivens were supposed to close the gap between popular weapons and not-so-popular ones. By the scenario you disputed; high tier weapon still outclassing low tier weapon sans their rivens + dispositions, the system itself is failing what it's supposed to do...

 

Does it bring enjoyment to us who do get lucky with the riven? heck yeah.

Does it do its intended job?

It makes the already trivial endgame even moreso in the case of high tier weapons while low tier weapons still remain a relative niche in endgame environment despite a higher functional level cap. Your anecdotal case is more of a logical fallacy at best. Perceived exclusivity behind rng doesn't mean godly rivens for high tier weapons don't exist. It does and given time people who invest their time in it can/will get it, by that point it denies the validity of riven closing the gap between popular and unpopular weapons. i.e. we can only go so far feigning ignorance by using perceived exclusivity as an argument for rivens.

 

The power gap is still there and it did nothing to make a lot of lower tier weapon more appealing over high-tier ones on the long run. 

 

Case in point, In the last week alone I still saw people run meta weapons in their setups and barely any if at all less popular weapons. Sure you can argue that might mean they lack the riven for either/ both the meta and less popular weapon but therein lies the logical fallacy in your anecdotal case. If they have a riven for a less popular weapon in their arsenal and not the more popular ones then why did they still stick with meta setups? Likewise if they have a good riven on their meta weapon, why would they consider using less popular weapons with rivens that is still outclassed aside from vanity value?

 

Not to mention I've banked over 30k worth of plat just selling decent rivens for high-tier weapons like tigris with dookie disposition whereas "low tier" weapon with high disposition like vasto saw less demand riven-wise still. I.e. people still lookout for higher tier weapon rivens moreso than lower tier ones, ergo the whole point for riven's purpose is still cloudy at best, broken at worst... This doesn't even account the borked disposition system; lookin at you Gram Prime.

 

3.0

.... If this is the case then I woulda seen or heard of someone bring an mk-1 strun or miter in either modes on a somewhat consistent basis.

Well I don't know what makes your anecdotal evidence of never seeing people play with lower tier weapons more valuable than mine of people and myself using all kinds of different weapons and not being slaves to the meta now.

And another person complaining about gram prime...I really really don't get what the hang up is with that weapon. I barely even see it in play... But again, anecdotal evidence right? My Serro riven means nothing and is broken because someone out there is swinging strong gram prime with a riven. 

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9 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Well I don't know what makes your anecdotal evidence of never seeing people play with lower tier weapons more valuable than mine of people and myself using all kinds of different weapons and not being slaves to the meta now.

And another person complaining about gram prime...I really really don't get what the hang up is with that weapon. I barely even see it in play... But again, anecdotal evidence right? My Serro riven means nothing and is broken because someone out there is swinging strong gram prime with a riven

Cause it's the facts isn't it?.... You can feign ignorance and say the system is doing its job but have you actually seen anyone run a miter or mk-1 weapons on either Arbitration or overlong sortie mission 3?

 

And therein lies the problem with your arguments so far doesn't it. Ignorance =/= solution, Gram Prime is there, it's the newest in the line of weapons with borked disposition and people have shared their confusion about the weapon to riven "synergy". I mean, yeah....  as above, more power to you for having a serro riven; I myself have 2 good sero rivens with good stats according to riven calculator and a dookie gram riven yet it STILL outperforms the former on 150 enemies at simulacrum. Granted I don't use either as much as my Zaw cause... Zaw's busted even without rivens and there's already another problem as well isn't it? 

 

Again, more power to you for having a serro riven, but it doesn't exactly make for a compelling argument on how riven system isn't broken in its current form.

 

Using perceived exclusivity as an argument for riven is logical fallacy at best, pure ignorance at worst.

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3 minutes ago, Tsardova said:

Cause it's the facts isn't it?.... You can feign ignorance and say the system is doing its job but have you actually seen anyone run a miter or mk-1 weapons on either Arbitration or overlong sortie mission 3?

 

And therein lies the problem with your arguments so far doesn't it. Ignorance =/= solution, Gram Prime is there, it's the newest in the line of weapons with borked disposition and people have shared their confusion about the weapon to riven "synergy". I mean, yeah....  as above, more power to you for having a serro riven; I myself have 2 good sero rivens with good stats according to riven calculator and a dookie gram riven yet it STILL outperforms the former on 150 enemies at simulacrum. Granted I don't use either as much as my Zaw cause... Zaw's busted even without rivens and there's already another problem as well isn't it? 

 

Again, more power to you for having a serro riven, but it doesn't exactly make for a compelling argument on how riven system isn't broken in its current form.

 

Using perceived exclusivity as an argument for riven is logical fallacy at best, pure ignorance at worst.

Uhhh, I hate to say this, but what you posted is more an example of issues with us as a playerbase and not necessarily with the intents of rivens themselves.  

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45 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

Uhhh, I hate to say this, but what you posted is more an example of issues with us as a playerbase and not necessarily with the intents of rivens themselves.  

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How?.... That's merely shifting the blame on the consumer end while disregarding the core issue. If rivens are working as intended then people would be running unpopular weapons even more than how it is regardless. Blaming the masses for an inherent flaw in the system doesn't mean the system isn't broken in its current form. If anything it adds to the issue and shows how the system doesn't do its job to incentivize people enough in using unpopular weapons with good rivens.

 

End of the day it's all about the numbers, always has been and rivens were supposed to close the gap enough for unpopular weapons to have people look at them more, and yet here we are with janky dispositions and meta weapons still being meta.

Edited by Tsardova
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even if my lanka had a dispo of 1 id still be using it over a dispo 5 on any other sniper(if they had dispo 5).

a strong riven does not equate to people are to to be using the weapon for it. in that sense even in a perfect world of rivens, the meta weapons will still be used well probably at the same rate the lower tier ones are at now.

there is quite a few dispo 5 weapons that see virtually no use. and lots of dispo 1 weapons that see a lot of use.

i think the previous poster was implying this. 

rivens have closed the gap for several weapons, but individually rivens is a boost for everything even at dispo 1. sure it could do with some more but is it really such a big problem? honestly most games have gear that we completly omit at one point so i see not much issue with that being the same here.

there is a lot of weapons that just need to stay on the low tier list Like The MK weapons. sure we have the option to use them but that doesn't mean the game needs to balance it so it can used for killing off everything in the game.

Edited by Makunogo
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On 2018-10-27 at 7:59 AM, Hypernaut1 said:

I really don't get the argument that they are terrible for the game. Improvements can be made, of course, but I don't get why there are so many vocal post that hate them

My bullet points why they're not bad for the game are

• gives weaker weapons a chance to be useful in sortie and other high end missions. I don't think the point was to make strong weapons weak in comparison, just to give us more options. So yes, that tiberon will still be awesome, but I'm not gimping myself heavily by taking my 4 forma Gorgon with an awesome riven. That's how the game USED to be. If you saw anyone with anything but the meta, they weren't going to be doing optimal damage. Rivens eliminated that for the most part.

• it's an excellent time and resource sink. As a vet I can always use kuva and I always have a use for kuva. As a vet rivens are STILL a relevant reward. If I dont use it, i can sell it. I think it's one of the best end game mehanics in Warframe. It gets me to try forgotten weapons and try to make them beastly. Before rivens I had 10 weapons that iwould cycle with no real reason to revisit rank and dump weapons. Before rivens I wouldve never dusted off my cyclon again, or my serata. 

• makes modding interesting again. Before rivens I pretty much copy pasted a crit or status build onto every weapon. Rivens haven't solved all modding issues, but it's become a bit more dynamic now. My zenith has an insane fire rate thanks to a riven. I would've never really discovered that without them. I have weapons with 2 different rivens that change how they play, yet both are effective (I'm at cap now though, so I need to decide which one to get rid of soon). 

• its broken up the meta a lot compared to before. Before rivens many loadouts looked exactly the same. A boltor,soma, gammacor, etc. There still are popular weapons, but they aren't as ubiquitous as they used to be. It's far more interesting now to see someone bring an awesome buzlok to a sortie and ask them what Riven they have than seeing the same old copy paste builds made popular by a tuber in every mission. My Arca is still an awesome shotgun, but I can do pretty much just as well with my Boar prime. I don't feel forced to use the meta like i how I used to feel forced to use a boltor prime in high end missions.

To me rivens are one of the absolute best additions to the game. So I don't get the hate, or just don't understand it. Sure they make some powerful weapons even stronger, but not to the point where they break the game or force everyone to get only those weapons. RNG is RNG. Some hate it, some love it. Personally, I've never had to roll a riven more than 10- 25x to get good stats. 

If you feel otherwise let me hear it. Try to be more specific than "ruins the modding system" and explain why. It's easy to throw out a bunch of supposed flaws without explanation.

Don't get my won't though, I'm not saying they're perfect. There's definitely some changes and improvements I would love to see, but despite that I still don't get the hate.

Ok, as a PS4 player, it has skewed the market. I haven’t been able to sell entire sets unless it goes for 20p or less or 100p or above. It has made the PS4 market and value of plat insane. It’s not rare to see Rivens that go for 2k plat+. That’s over $100 USD for a single mod! The Riven market has inflated the value of a single plat to nothing and only the richest get to trade with each other. Yeah, Rivens kinda ruined PlayStation’s trade chat. I can’t even sell a Rhino set without having to spam in trade chat for an entire day.

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So with the exception of the Atterax and Staticor and maybe Tigris for Shotgun only Sorties and Zenistar for people that do have access to it i very rarely see these weapons in use. Thats a complete list of the Riven Dispo 1 weapons by the way. Oh and with 1 or 2 exceptions the same could be said for Dispo 2 weapons.

 

Just to make it clear, most of these weapons rnt used anymore because of their dispo, but because they got nerfed hard/there were more potent alternatives introduced to the game that do the same WITH higher riven dispo. 

 

Again, the problem is that the riven system isnt doing what it is supposed to do, making weaker weapons more attractive / on par with meta weapons. Right now it mainly buffs allready strong weapons that would be used regardless of rivens even more if you have one. In my eyes, that IS a problem. I dont want rivens to be cut out of the game completely, but there is no coherence in the system anymore.

Edited by Van_Hoven
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19 minutes ago, Van_Hoven said:

 

So with the exception of the Atterax and Staticor and maybe Tigris for Shotgun only Sorties and Zenistar for people that do have access to it i very rarely see these weapons in use. Thats a complete list of the Riven Dispo 1 weapons by the way. Oh and with 1 or 2 exceptions the same could be said for Dispo 2 weapons.

 

Just because you don't see them all the time doesn't mean they aren't used. like this is a pretty mute point. 

disposition has nothing to do with how much these weapons are used or not. otherwise everyone would be using jaw sword for its dispo 5 ranking. (out of many other things)

also all of these weapons are pretty strong without rivens. 

so whats the point you are getting across by showing the list?

lets also take into account that most or these are hella old weapons. heck i'm only just over a year in and i've gone through them already. i also have mained about a 1/3 of these weapons at one point. but with the HUGE arsenal of weapons i am literally swapping every few matches. weather or not its fun. heck sometimes i use the random option in loadout just to brush myself up a bit.

 

 

Edited by Makunogo
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disposition has EVERYTHING to do with how much weapons are used, it was the very single determining factor when rivens were introduced. 

And no, this weapons are NOT strong compared to others. they are significantly weaker. can you still do all the star chart and even arbitrations with them? Sure! doesnt change the fact there are way better alternatives. 

Pls read before posting. I said explicitly that these weapons are not in use anymore because of their dispo, but because there are better alternatives regardless of riven dispo available, WITH better riven dispo, and this leads the idea behind rivens ad absurdum.

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13 minutes ago, Van_Hoven said:

disposition has EVERYTHING to do with how much weapons are used, it was the very single determining factor when rivens were introduced. 

And no, this weapons are NOT strong compared to others. they are significantly weaker. can you still do all the star chart and even arbitrations with them? Sure! doesnt change the fact there are way better alternatives. 

Pls read before posting. I said explicitly that these weapons are not in use anymore because of their dispo, but because there are better alternatives regardless of riven dispo available, WITH better riven dispo, and this leads the idea behind rivens ad absurdum.

nothing is wrong with better alternatives. if DE makes new weapons that are essentially trash nobody would use them ( see pupacyst)

akstiletto prime was HUGELY popular until around ESO popped up so idk what you talking about there(prob because it got vaulted is why its not used as much). the rivens were also fairly expensive despite being dispo 1.

zenistar is used solely in survival pretty much.

should i go on with the rest of that list?

Edit: if you seriously think these  ALL weapons are not strong maybe you need to start using them more.

btw lesion is consider one the strongest status melee weapon (outside of zaws, based on what i was told)

Edited by Makunogo
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Let me take a look. Anyone using daggers? claws? nikanas? Fist weapons? well for style purposes maybe, but range is way to low to be considered competitive, maybe a dagger build with inaros but thats way slower then most alternatives. so venka, nikana and dark dagger, hirudo are gone. Throwing weapons? Are you serious? I never heard anyone say throwing weapons can compare to other secondaries. So Hikou and Spira are gone. Lecta was only on the list bc lots of people used it for credit farm which got nerfed. Gone.

 

Akstilleto? Was good, now there are better secondaries like pyranha, euphona etc. Galatine got strictly outclassed by Gram Prime and Paracesis. Hek is nice, for a beginner, MR20+ you want other stuff do to the work. FRIGGIN jat kusar? when did you see that one the last time? Lesion is nice but after they fixed the stealth/gas interaction its not even close to former glory. Lex just are too slow and there are better alternatives. Marelok same thing. 

 

Why would I use Orthos when there is a Guandao/Jaws? Simulor got nerfed hard. Soma was good a loooong time ago. Sonicor is a niche weapon at best. Tonkor. yeah. i see lots of people running around with that weapon! War is nice for showing off, but again, gram, paracesis and former to that galatine outclassed it for your heavy sword needs.

 

Do you really, really think these weapons are strong and "deserve" a dispo of 1 compared to other weapons?

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the problem is you should not be comparing them in the first place. until you stop comparing, you will never be satisfied. because there is always going to be something better.

Edit* and they do not need to be balanced by said comparison either. people keep thinking rivens is supposed to make all weapons Equal. and that's pretty much impossible.

Edited by Makunogo
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Again, im fine with rivens per se, but there is no coherence anymore in their implementation. Something should be done. I said in this thread before that i dont think that they should make prime versions worse beceause of a 4 or 5 dispo. But the system right now has nothing to do with the intentions they had when implementing it.

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riven dispo needs to change based on the individual performance not on how comparable it can compete with other weapons. that's the only way to truly fix rivens. in that sense for example soma prime despite other weapons similar to it being "better" its still a pretty strong weapon. something like that isnt likely to go above its current dispo ever. (opinion) because it still performs fairly amazing despite it being outclasses by newer weapons (which is very common in MMO's)

based on this there would probably be some riven changes we don't like much. but then its also hard to have a fair gauge of a weapons performance you said it yourself there is many types of weapons. how can we gauge each one in an equal manner? because "hitting a 150 corrupted bombard" really doesn't cut it that much

Edit: id prefer to use akstiletto over euphona or pyrana ( i actually hate both those weapons). personal taste can easily neglect how strong the weapon is. tho in that department akstiletto shreds AF i only since replaced it with hystrix shredding faster without a riven (also i needed to try something new)

Edited by Makunogo
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4 hours ago, Van_Hoven said:

disposition has EVERYTHING to do with how much weapons are used, it was the very single determining factor when rivens were introduced. 

And no, this weapons are NOT strong compared to others. they are significantly weaker. can you still do all the star chart and even arbitrations with them? Sure! doesnt change the fact there are way better alternatives. 

Pls read before posting. I said explicitly that these weapons are not in use anymore because of their dispo, but because there are better alternatives regardless of riven dispo available, WITH better riven dispo, and this leads the idea behind rivens ad absurdum.

This is where you totally miss the point. You admit these weapons can do the job. So where is the problem? Weapons are balanced against the content, not each over, so what if one weapon can do it slightly better? If your favourite weapon can clear the content, that’s all that should matter, having all weapons be viable is all that should matter and most importantly, having fun is all that should matter.

some people have fun using weapons they like, others by using weapons that are optimal, what does it matter as long as they both do the job? If both the gram and orthos slice through the sortie with ease does it really matter that the gram has bigger numbers each swing?

players should really just use what they enjoy and stop worrying what others are using.

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5 hours ago, Makunogo said:

Riven dispo needs to change based on the individual performance not on how comparable it can compete with other weapons

That's exactly how you determine individual performance when you're making a tier list, which is what Riven disposition is.

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2 hours ago, (PS4)obsidiancurse said:

This is where you totally miss the point. You admit these weapons can do the job. So where is the problem? Weapons are balanced against the content, not each over, so what if one weapon can do it slightly better? If your favourite weapon can clear the content, that’s all that should matter, having all weapons be viable is all that should matter and most importantly, having fun is all that should matter.

some people have fun using weapons they like, others by using weapons that are optimal, what does it matter as long as they both do the job? If both the gram and orthos slice through the sortie with ease does it really matter that the gram has bigger numbers each swing?

players should really just use what they enjoy and stop worrying what others are using.

This is exactly what I was trying to articulate. There will always be a weapon that does the most damage. Rivens make most weapons viable in end game content and that's great. They shouldn't be made useless for powerful weapons, I don't see how that's fair. 

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8 hours ago, Makunogo said:

the problem is you should not be comparing them in the first place. until you stop comparing, you will never be satisfied. because there is always going to be something better.

Edit* and they do not need to be balanced by said comparison either. people keep thinking rivens is supposed to make all weapons Equal. and that's pretty much impossible.

Exactly. I don't buy into the idea that something like a plasma sword with a riven should easily outclass a gram prime with a riven. I don't think the system was ever promised to rebalance power to that extreme. What it should do is make a plasma sword good enough for all content... Which I admit isn't always the case for the lowest tier weapons. 

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1 hour ago, Hypernaut1 said:

This is exactly what I was trying to articulate. There will always be a weapon that does the most damage. Rivens make most weapons viable in end game content and that's great. They shouldn't be made useless for powerful weapons, I don't see how that's fair. 

Rivens absolutely do not make most weapons viable in end game content, which is the stated goal of the system.

Here's the bottom line: DE themselves have said that the Riven system has failed as it currently stands. Directly from the team involved in creating them we have been told that the system is broken and needs fixing. If you're going to ignore that then there's zero point in other players ever trying to convince you. This thread is such a waste.

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On 2018-10-29 at 10:55 AM, Makunogo said:

riven transmuters are very useful. especially considering we have a cap on how many we can hold. not many people will have 90 rivens that they use. and if they do well that kind of sucks cus eventually they will get soft blocked from sortie as some people have recently started complaining about.

it also gave  players an incentive to tridolon cus they would transmute their trash. and also created a small market of "trash riven buyers" this is actually the main reason i bother doing tridolon runs. everything else is a bonus honestly. since transmuters are not tradeable.

40 hours is not that long in a game where most of its players are well over 1k hours. in my opinion..and that's a pretty generous low ball number. and kuva should not be too easy to farm 100 rolls.. that's quite a lot i personally have never done that many rolls on anything

 

Quality of Life rolls are becoming popular. reload speed or magazine flight speed ect there is alternative builds 

for example i used an azima riven to make it an effective "beyblade" the  riven helped me achieve that without killing half my mod slots

 

 

Riven transmuters are useful because of all the junk rivens that exists. The vast majority of weapons doesn't become good with a ricen, so that makes that riven the definition of pointless. With transmuters it'll at least be 1/4th useful. I mean, you said it yourself "they would transmute their trash". Your point about making a market for junk rivens, well aren't rivens supposed to be the equivalent of end game content (not that warframe really have any), that makes the rewards for doing end game content so bad, that DE needed to make an additional system, just for it to be useful (and not even in a good way).

 

Was gonna reply to the rest too, but I can't be bothered to be honest. You asked why they're bad, I gave you my answer and I've learned by now, that DE doesn't read any other threads than their own and only reply to the "praise DE hallelujah" fanatical posts. The rest of us with honestly really good ideas to fixes, we get ignored.

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I've only been playing about 100 days but rivens are already my end game. I enjoy buying cheap veiled with S#&$ty challenges, opening them and seeing what I get them keeping or giving away. The fact that it's rng makes it more appealing to me, not less.

I do agree they need regular dispo updates however. If my g roll suddenly takes a hit? My so-so Soma roll might become godly with that same dispo change.

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